San-O Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 As the decision has been made regarding starting left D-end, is Denney now an actual bust as has apparently been passed over by a 2nd year player? Would seem so to me, although I now the opinions very.
Bill from NYC Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Probably so and it is a shame. I like TD as much as anybody at cap management and free agency, but he needs to improve his draft record. Hopefully he will do so with a solid performance by MaGahee.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 As the decision has been made regarding starting left D-end, is Denney nowan actual bust as has apparently been passed over by a 2nd year player? Would seem so to me, although I now the opinions very. 22293[/snapback] naaah. Look, if Denney was drafted top-15 and was a projected worldbeater, sure, he'd be a bust. But he was a second-rounder, isn't huge, and can fill in capably. I think he'll be a solid backup and can fill in if Kelsay goes down or doesn't do it. Besides, Kelsay was projected first-round material and was a steal in the 2nd. No bust here.
Guest Guest Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 How silly. Both are number two draft choices. They were drafted in consecutive years. They're essentially interchangeable. If one's a bust, they're both a bust. Bottomline is neither is a star and neither never will be. Both are serviceable pros who will give it there all until something better comes along.
Mark VI Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Denney will still play a lot. He'll never be the player once envisioned but players who still see dozens of snaps every game and contribute aren't " Busts " . Those failures get cut.
nodnarb Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 No, no no.... come on people...have we learned nothing from the Patriots? They've selected CK as the starter probably because they like him as a specific matchup against the Jag's RT better than RD. Don't be surprised to see RD get the "start" in other games, based on the matchup. This is what the Pats have done for the last 3 years. They always have rotating starters. They fuggin started Jarvis Green at DE in a playoff game last year simply because they knew he could do a few particular things against his matchup better than Warren, Hamilton, or McGuinest could. Rotating Dlinemen means that some games there will be different "starters" but both will play. Ryan Denney is not a bust. Erik Flowers was a bust. The two are miles apart. A bust is a guy who can't play at the pro level. Denney can play at the pro level. He is a very good run stopper, and sheds blocks well. He's getting better and better. He only has 3.5 sacks, which is why he's criticized. It's foolishness.
cale Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 naaah. Look, if Denney was drafted top-15 and was a projected worldbeater, sure, he'd be a bust. But he was a second-rounder, isn't huge, and can fill in capably. I think he'll be a solid backup and can fill in if Kelsay goes down or doesn't do it. Besides, Kelsay was projected first-round material and was a steal in the 2nd. No bust here. 22322[/snapback] hmm...I'm not Denney fan. But given he gave Kelsay a neck and neck race during camp & preseason and seems to have improved. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for another year. I still think it was a dumb ass move on TD's part to trade up to get him - but who knows he may be the second coming of Phil Hansen or something. Though I think Kelsay looks more and more like PH everyday. I just think Denney may be a late bloomer...But I seem to recall he slept in late on draft day and only heard he was picked thanks to a room-mate. Doesn't bode well for the future. Charlee
Bill from NYC Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 No, no no.... come on people...have we learned nothing from the Patriots? They've selected CK as the starter probably because they like him as a specific matchup against the Jag's RT better than RD. Don't be surprised to see RD get the "start" in other games, based on the matchup. This is what the Pats have done for the last 3 years. They always have rotating starters. They fuggin started Jarvis Green at DE in a playoff game last year simply because they knew he could do a few particular things against his matchup better than Warren, Hamilton, or McGuinest could. Rotating Dlinemen means that some games there will be different "starters" but both will play. Ryan Denney is not a bust. Erik Flowers was a bust. The two are miles apart. A bust is a guy who can't play at the pro level. Denney can play at the pro level. He is a very good run stopper, and sheds blocks well. He's getting better and better. He only has 3.5 sacks, which is why he's criticized. It's foolishness. 22337[/snapback] You raise good points, but it is more than the sorry number of sacks. He does not even bring much pressure to qbs and he should, with guys like Big Sam and PW occupying blockers. Almost everyone on the board states that OL and DE are their concerns this season. Denney is the bulk of the reason for concern at DE imo, and MM seems to agree.
RCow Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 What is your definition of a bust? - A bust gets cut from the team. Denney wasn't cut. - A bust cannot start. Denney could easily start over Kelsey. - A bust cannot beat out higher draft picks. Kelsey has consensus 1st round talent. - A bust isn't worth anywhere near the money he pulls down. I don't see anyone crying about his salary. - A bust doesn't play. No reason to think he won't get at least 40% of playing time. - A bust doesn't contribute. Denney may ably back-up two starters. It's difficult to call a player a bust when coaches essentially consider then 1B and the "starter" 1A. For all we know it's for this week only. Let's see how he performs before he's a declared a bust.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 As the decision has been made regarding starting left D-end, is Denney nowan actual bust as has apparently been passed over by a 2nd year player? Would seem so to me, although I now the opinions very. 22293[/snapback] No he is not. Look at the depth chart and note that the Bills have no back-up at RDE behind Schobel and the word from the braintrust on this point is that the expect the two LDE candidates we started out with to put in some time at RDE backing up Schobel. Indications are that they are serious about this: 1. DEs often move around on the DL in this league as DCs try to confuse the opponent and to get mismatches. This pre-season saw Kelsay and Denny play some on the right side, I thought this was the usual mving folks around for variety but the braintrust seems serious about having them play that side. 2. We cut both Glidon and McKenizie. Cuts are not merely a judgment on whether a player is adequate, but whether he is better at a job than what we got. I found Glidon's play substandard as I think age has caught up with him, but I was impressed that McKenzie showed some good pursuit and recovery. he certainly shouldn't be expected to be a starter, but i think was a good candidate for sub work. The fact we cut McKenzie leads me to believe that they judge Denny to be a better value for production than McKenzie. 3. The Bills seem committed to a wave approach of using the DL so the back-up LDE/RDE will see alot of critical time for us. In addition, Denny still has some of the leverage problems with his big body that got him benched initially, but he has shown some good talent and production playing pass coverage in the zone-blitz scheme (asshown in his pre-season INT and the obvious advanatage his big wingspan provides for short-zone pass coverage). In my minds, a bust is like a Ryan Leaf or a Flowers whom the Bills let go because he had no value to them. Denny clearly has diappointed as all of us fans wanted him to be the next Bruce Smith (no mater how unreasonable out hopes are we're just fans). He disappointed big time because he had to ride the bench rather than be even marginally productive as a rookie. However, it simply makes no football sense to call thestarting LDE on the #2 statistical D a bust. he should be better and I am glad he was surpassed but he was not a bust at all given his output and the prospects we hold for him as an important part of our DL wave approach. He will not be an HOF player, but if you here talk this season that he reminds folks of a great player who was known as "The Stork" it will mean he is making his mark. I think he has shiwn enough talent and has the demographics that he may be able to do it.
nobody Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 And for all we know Denney might even end up playing more plays then Kelsay does in the game. I would guess that Kelsay had a better practice week which is why he gets the start.
BillnutinHouston Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Calling Denney a bust at this stage is pure hysteria. Do you work for the media?
Bill from NYC Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 What is your definition of a bust? - A bust gets cut from the team. Denney wasn't cut. - A bust cannot start. Denney could easily start over Kelsey. - A bust cannot beat out higher draft picks. Kelsey has consensus 1st round talent. - A bust isn't worth anywhere near the money he pulls down. I don't see anyone crying about his salary. - A bust doesn't play. No reason to think he won't get at least 40% of playing time. - A bust doesn't contribute. Denney may ably back-up two starters. It's difficult to call a player a bust when coaches essentially consider then 1B and the "starter" 1A. For all we know it's for this week only. Let's see how he performs before he's a declared a bust. 22353[/snapback] I think that being a value or a "bust" depends in large on where one was drafted. For instance, Peerless Price was a value in round 2. John Holocek was a value in round 5. Moulds was picked late in round 1, great pick. How about PW as an undrafted free agent? In his first draft in Buffalo, TD nabbed Henry and Schobel in round 2, then Jennings in round 3. Compared to those picks, Denney has been of little value. See the difference?
Jack D. Ripper Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Denney is the best 2nd Round pick the Bills have ever made....With the possible exception of Lonnie Johnson.."I'm open my guy blitzed!"
ARGB52 Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Kelsay will be as good as Schobel, IMO Denny because of hid size has to move inside or he will just be a back up player. IMO
San-O Posted September 8, 2004 Author Posted September 8, 2004 How silly. Both are number two draft choices. They were drafted in consecutive years. They're essentially interchangeable. If one's a bust, they're both a bust. Bottomline is neither is a star and neither never will be. Both are serviceable pros who will give it there all until something better comes along. 22330[/snapback] That is kind of the whole point, TD reached to draft Denney then drafted a 2nd round DE the next year. I think if a 1st/2nd round pick does not start after the first year, if they are not a bust, they are not getting much done. A 2nd round pick not starting the 3dr year looks pretty bad. Remember, Denny was a bit older to begin with and is 27 years old now. He should be well into his prime I would think.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 I think that being a value or a "bust" depends in large on where one was drafted.For instance, Peerless Price was a value in round 2. John Holocek was a value in round 5. Moulds was picked late in round 1, great pick. How about PW as an undrafted free agent? In his first draft in Buffalo, TD nabbed Henry and Schobel in round 2, then Jennings in round 3. Compared to those picks, Denney has been of little value. See the difference? 22368[/snapback] Denny was the starting LDE on a D generally thought of being one of the better Ds in the league (you have to be good to play with an O that scores no TDs) and which did produce a #2 statistical ranking in the league. This sounds like at least some value to me. He is obviously no Bruce Smith but are the only choices be bruce or be a bust?
Bill from NYC Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 That is kind of the whole point, TD reached to draft Denney then drafted a 2nd round DE the next year. I think if a 1st/2nd round pick does not start after thefirst year, if they are not a bust, they are not getting much done. A 2nd round pick not starting the 3dr year looks pretty bad. Remember, Denny was a bit older to begin with and is 27 years old now. He should be well into his prime I would think. 22388[/snapback] SCS, your points are valid. What did we give up when trading up to get Denney, a 4th round pick? If so, there is every chance that the 4th pick would have out produced Denney to this point. The good news is that he still has a chance, however slim, to develop into a DE who can make big plays and apply pressure.
Bill from NYC Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Denny was the starting LDE on a D generally thought of being one of the better Ds in the league (you have to be good to play with an O that scores no TDs) and which did produce a #2 statistical ranking in the league. This sounds like at least some value to me. He is obviously no Bruce Smith but are the only choices be bruce or be a bust? 22438[/snapback] Not at all FFS, and he DID start, this is true. But he was the weak link, right?
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 That is kind of the whole point, TD reached to draft Denney then drafted a 2nd round DE the next year. I think if a 1st/2nd round pick does not start after thefirst year, if they are not a bust, they are not getting much done. A 2nd round pick not starting the 3dr year looks pretty bad. Remember, Denny was a bit older to begin with and is 27 years old now. He should be well into his prime I would think. 22388[/snapback] I see the need the Bills had to pick an LDE two years in a row as certainly being prompted by some real failure on Denny's part as a rookie, but also in no small part it was prompted by: 1. The Bills moved from running a 3-4 to a 4-3. 2. At the same time they jacked up their need for DL players by 25% they were in the process of losing Big Ted as a cap cut, Wiley as an FA and Hansen to retirement. 3. This also came on the tail of losing the best defensive player we ever had, Bruce Smith, as a cap casualty. If you want to talk about the whole point, then look at the whole thing. I think one of the major failings of the GW era was moving to a 4-3 at the worst possible time. I think the Bills would have been shopping for prominent De help regardless of how Denny performed as this team needed to create leverage and prepare for the potential loss of Schobel.
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