Mark Schofield: Precarious Handling of Young Quarterbacks

[Happy]

Very interesting article.  I knew McVay had a lot to do with Goff's success, but I didn't realize to this extent.  McVay, and possibly Matt Nagy, are essentially the QB without having to physically handle and deliver the ball.  Definitely explains the Rams difficulties on offense during the SB.  

[ganesh]

The way they did this in the old days was easy.  They just sat young QBs for a couple of years to learn and adjust to the speed of the NFL.  We have lost that ability today in the NFL.  We are throwing young QBs to the wolves and the results are not pretty...they are bruised and battered physically and emotionally.  they see ghosts walking....

 

fix the problem by being patient with your young QB...Don't boo him out of your stadium....

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

The way they did this in the old days was easy.  They just sat young QBs for a couple of years to learn and adjust to the speed of the NFL.  We have lost that ability today in the NFL.  We are throwing young QBs to the wolves and the results are not pretty...they are bruised and battered physically and emotionally.  they see ghosts walking....

 

fix the problem by being patient with your young QB...Don't boo him out of your stadium....

 

The results weren't all that pretty in the past, either.  We all remember that Elway, Kelly, and Marino came out of the historic 1983 draft as well as Ken O'Brien.  But Todd Blackledge (#7) and Tony Eason (#15) were sandwiched between Elway (#1) and Marino (#27).  Three QBs were taken in first round of the 1987 draft, but only Vinnie Testaverde was a successful NFL QB.  The 1990 draft had 2 first rounders, Jeff George and Andre Ware, and 1991 also had 2 more first rounders: Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich.  The #1 pick in 1997 draft was Jim Druckenmiller who was a major bust who lasted only 3 seasons in the NFL while 2nd rounder Jake Plummer  had a successful NFL career.

 

Selecting and developing successful NFL QBs doesn't seems to have improved much over the last 40 or so years.  It was as hit or miss 30 plus years as it is today.

[Don Otreply]

Nice read, coach letting Josh try and fail, is a good learning tool for a young QB, and I for one like the concept behind this approach. A percentage of the fan base as one can see when reading peoples thoughts on this forum, does not likely have the patience to watch the “process” unfold. Teaching maturation in a compressed time frame is anything but easy, I suspect many here have gone through this in many job circumstances, the “process” comes to fruition at different rates for different pupils. Again nice read.

 

Go Bills!!!

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Nice read, coach letting Josh try and fail, is a good learning tool for a young QB, and I for one like the concept behind this approach. A percentage of the fan base as one can see when reading peoples thoughts on this forum, does not likely have the patience to watch the “process” unfold. Teaching maturation in a compressed time frame is anything but easy, I suspect many here have gone through this in many job circumstances, the “process” comes to fruition at different rates for different pupils. Again nice read.

 

Go Bills!!!

But unfortunately, the NFL is  for  Not For Long League...So  different rates for different pupil doesn't cut it in today's NFL

[Don Otreply]

7 minutes ago, ganesh said:

But unfortunately, the NFL is  for  Not For Long League...So  different rates for different pupil doesn't cut it in today's NFL

Haste makes waste....

[Shaw66]

I think the article is very interesting, but I'd take a different tack in talking about QB development.   

 

First, I don't think that coaches have ruined the careers of many, if any QBs.   I think QBs may have been in better or worse circumstances, but I think that they succeed based on multiple characteristics of their own.  

 

I think it's helpful to start with the end in mind.  What does a quality NFL starter - a franchise QB - look like?   He has an arm that's good enough, mobility that's good enough, and a whole collection of mental skills - call it field generalship - that make him a winner.  He's a competitor and a leader.   Much of the field generalship comes from experience.   There are NO great QBs in the their first or second year.   Well, I'll give you, maybe Marino, but I know the details of his career well enough to talk intelligently.   And I know people will say what about Mahomes, but I'm not sold.  I think once the league figures him out, he will come back to earth. 

 

What makes a great QB is reading defenses and being able to make adjustments, and the only guys who can do that are guys who have accumulated years of experience.   Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers.  They do stuff consistently that none of the young guys do.

 

So how do you develop a QB?  First, he has to have the physical tools.   Then you have to get him a lot of experience.   He can get some of that experience on the bench, in practice, watching film, etc.   But some significant part of the experience he needs he has to get on the field.   There's no other way.  

 

The question becomes how and when do you get him the on-field experience?   I don't buy the notion that McVeigh may be limiting Goff by all his radio talk.   The object is to get Goff on-field experience.  If you get him a couple of seasons of experience by holding his hand on the radio, yes he's not making ALL the on-field judgments you might want, but he's doing something, he learning something, every play, every game.  He can'n learn it all at once anyway, so let get lots of playing experience now and work him into the pre-snap read process gradually.    Being on the radio a lot for a couple of years is not going to ruin Goff.   If Goff is going to make it, he's going to make regardless of whether he made pre-snap reads early in his career. 

 

Similarly, a QB who plays with a dumbed-down play book.  If he can't ever master the whole playbook, he's not going to make it.  But he can start with a dumbed-down playbook, learn to make the reads with those plays, and work his way up.  

 

In both cases, you're talking about getting the guy on the field and getting him opportunities to gain experience.  That's more important than waiting until some later time. 

 

Allen is doing it differently.  They've thrown the whole playbook at him, and they're approach is to prep him each week for what he can expect to see.   

 

In all three cases, the objective is to get the guy to have some success, somehow, on the field.  The objective is to get them experience without their having major failure to deal with.  

 

Is Rosen failiing because he's being mishandled?   I doubt it.   He's failing because he hasn't been able to translate enough of what he's been taught into successful play on the field.  If he has what it takes to succeed as a starter, he will show someone in practice in Miami and at his next team, and with added experience from the bench, he'll start to better and eventually emerge.  

 

Can I prove any of this?  No.  I just think that's how it works.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think the article is very interesting, but I'd take a different tack in talking about QB development.   

 

First, I don't think that coaches have ruined the careers of many, if any QBs.   I think QBs may have been in better or worse circumstances, but I think that they succeed based on multiple characteristics of their own.  

 

I think it's helpful to start with the end in mind.  What does a quality NFL starter - a franchise QB - look like?   He has an arm that's good enough, mobility that's good enough, and a whole collection of mental skills - call it field generalship - that make him a winner.  He's a competitor and a leader.   Much of the field generalship comes from experience.   There are NO great QBs in the their first or second year.   Well, I'll give you, maybe Marino, but I know the details of his career well enough to talk intelligently.   And I know people will say what about Mahomes, but I'm not sold.  I think once the league figures him out, he will come back to earth. 

 

What makes a great QB is reading defenses and being able to make adjustments, and the only guys who can do that are guys who have accumulated years of experience.   Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers.  They do stuff consistently that none of the young guys do.

 

So how do you develop a QB?  First, he has to have the physical tools.   Then you have to get him a lot of experience.   He can get some of that experience on the bench, in practice, watching film, etc.   But some significant part of the experience he needs he has to get on the field.   There's no other way.  

 

The question becomes how and when do you get him the on-field experience?   I don't buy the notion that McVeigh may be limiting Goff by all his radio talk.   The object is to get Goff on-field experience.  If you get him a couple of seasons of experience by holding his hand on the radio, yes he's not making ALL the on-field judgments you might want, but he's doing something, he learning something, every play, every game.  He can'n learn it all at once anyway, so let get lots of playing experience now and work him into the pre-snap read process gradually.    Being on the radio a lot for a couple of years is not going to ruin Goff.   If Goff is going to make it, he's going to make regardless of whether he made pre-snap reads early in his career. 

 

Similarly, a QB who plays with a dumbed-down play book.  If he can't ever master the whole playbook, he's not going to make it.  But he can start with a dumbed-down playbook, learn to make the reads with those plays, and work his way up.  

 

In both cases, you're talking about getting the guy on the field and getting him opportunities to gain experience.  That's more important than waiting until some later time. 

 

Allen is doing it differently.  They've thrown the whole playbook at him, and they're approach is to prep him each week for what he can expect to see.   

 

In all three cases, the objective is to get the guy to have some success, somehow, on the field.  The objective is to get them experience without their having major failure to deal with.  

 

Is Rosen failiing because he's being mishandled?   I doubt it.   He's failing because he hasn't been able to translate enough of what he's been taught into successful play on the field.  If he has what it takes to succeed as a starter, he will show someone in practice in Miami and at his next team, and with added experience from the bench, he'll start to better and eventually emerge.  

 

Can I prove any of this?  No.  I just think that's how it works.  

 

I largely agree. Can coaching and situation matter? It can. But generally you are talking small percentages either way. Guys who can be great are great, guys who can be good are good and guys who don't have it fail. I have been watching the NFL since 2002. The only guy in that time who I looked at and though "damn he just never had a chance" was David Carr in Houston. He is the only guy I ever saw who I thought the situation he landed in really screwed. He got beat up so bad his first 2 years that by the chance they finally gave him a chance and it looked like it might come together in his third year there was too much mental scarring. 

 

EDIT: Rosen might become the 2nd but I think it is fair to ask at this point whether he has the fortitude to overcome. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by GunnerBill

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 10/23/2019 at 7:17 AM, ProcessTruster said:

Wow, so McVay was changing the play in Goff's headset at the line?   Wow, didn't know Goff was a total robot.   So McVay maybe ruined him by not allowing him to learn from mistakes, not allowing him to checkdown, etc. based on what the defense did?   McVay simply changed the play at the line based on the defense McVay saw and Goff just obeyed?   That kind of control?   Wow...  Maybe that is why young QBs seem to be running around a little lost if the original read isn't there? 

 

did not know the headset is not on all the time.. never knew it cuts off at a certain time in the pre play.  Does anyone know what the headset turn off timing is??  That would be super good to know when watching the play clock wind down.  Interesting.    Thanks OP.    Does Daboll do this with Allen?   I hope not.   If he's just a puppet on a string, how much and by when will he really learn to do on this own? 

Makes one appreciate a bit more the fact that JK called all of his own plays at the line in a hurry up rhythm, and did so mostly competently at that! 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

16 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Well, Firechance's comment on Allen was fair, and it's also disingenuous for posters to tout Allen's fourth quarter comebacks without acknowledging Atllen's own responsibility in creating the need for those comebacks.    Moreover, just because a poster is skeptical about about a coach or player's ability/quality/future doesn't mean that he or she hates that player or coach and wants to see him fail.

Well...I would say that depends on the posters and their respective history in terms of banging the same negativity drum to such an extent that if said player(s) do something positive, a negative must still be found to avoid the narrative blowing up?

[FireChans]

On 10/23/2019 at 2:13 PM, K-9 said:

 

Are you really glad about that? Really? Somehow it just doesn’t ring true when you say it. 

 

Better a QB who throws a pick and then leads a TD drive after than a QB who throws a pick and then pukes on his shoes.

 

Ideally, Allen would be Brady 2.0 but I think keeping it realistic is okay.

Edited October 27, 2019 by FireChans

[leonbus23]

On 10/23/2019 at 5:09 AM, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Enjoyed the article thank you!

 

One thing that always seem to strike me with regard to modernity, are the people who believe in a formula, algorithm or some precise way of beating complex situations. Adaptability and adjustment, while giving a nod of respect to bias and procedure, would seem to be the obvious. The competing forces of opposition would seem to dispel the notion of "cracking the code". We struggled for years in the Middle East until General Stanley McCrystal modernized the approach to an Army of adaptable strengths, communication, tactics etc. And, the approach is ever changing, because complex situations can't be viewed strictly in a vacuum.

 

Postmodern military strategy?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

5 hours ago, leonbus23 said:

 

Postmodern military strategy?

https://www.mcchrystalgroup.com/insights-2/teamofteams/

 

[PlayoffsPlease]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:11 AM, SoTier said:

 

I think that the real problem with picking QBs is that the evaluators seem to put way too much emphasis on arm strength and size to the neglect of other qualities that are much more important to NFL success.   I think the most glaring  -- and embarrassing -- example is the prejudice against shorter QBs.  Two of the very best NFL QBs in the NFL -- Drew Brees and Russell Wilson --  weren't drafted in the first round because they were considered "too short".  One of the biggest busts in NFL history was overall first draft pick in the 2007 draft, 6 foot, 6 inch JaMarcus Russell.

 

The real key to a QB's success is what's between his ears. There are lots of tall QBs.  There are lots of big throwers.  There are lots of athletic runners.  What there's not a lot of is guys who can almost instantly assess what they see on the football field, make the right decision of about how to react to that situation, and then execute whatever action they need to do to be successful.   NFL professionals don't seem to be able to identify collegiate QB with these abilities with any kind of consistency, which is why selecting QBs seems to be such a hit or miss proposition. 

 

At any given time less than 10%-15% of the starting NFL QBs are shorter than 6' 2"  .  The challenge is finding players that have both of the items above.  Sean McVay seems to see the field better than anyone and  is a rainman like genius in recalling playbooks and situations.  He played wide receiver in college.  I suspect this is because he did not have the physical skills to be a QB.  Russell Wilson has major league baseball caliber arm strength. So did younger Drew Brees.  Older Drew Brees is no arm strength slouch either.    I think the physical skill that separate short Wilson and Brees and tall Tom Brady from other players with equally strong arms and pretty good brains is unbelievable accuracy with the football.  I suspect if the NFL held a  dart tournament for 100 million dollars, Brady or Wilson would win it.  I suspect 20 NFL QBs would see the same tight  windows that the Brady Brees and Wilson see.  They also know they don't have the ability to hit that window and don't throw it, or if they throw it have a higher miss percentage.  

College football defenses are so inferior to NFL defenses that college QBs don't really need to throw to tight windows.  Guys like Brees and Wilson in college used their excellent field vision to find the wide open guys.  Its a very hard skill to assess. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by PlayoffsPlease

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

At any given time less than 10%-15% of the starting NFL QBs are shorter than 6' 2"  .  The challenge is finding players that have both of the items above.  Sean McVay seems to see the field better than anyone and  is a rainman like genius in recalling playbooks and situations.  He played wide receiver in college.  I suspect this is because he did not have the physical skills to be a QB.  Russell Wilson has major league baseball caliber arm strength. So did younger Drew Brees.  Older Drew Brees is no arm strength slouch either.    I think the physical skill that separate short Wilson and Brees and tall Tom Brady from other players with equally strong arms and pretty good brains is unbelievable accuracy with the football.  I suspect if the NFL held a  dart tournament for 100 million dollars, Brady or Wilson would win it.  I suspect 20 NFL QBs would see the same tight  windows that the Brady Brees and Wilson see.  They also know they don't have the ability to hit that window and don't throw it, or if they throw it have a higher miss percentage.  

College football defenses are so inferior to NFL defenses that college QBs don't really need to throw to tight windows.  Guys like Brees and Wilson in college used their excellent field vision to find the wide open guys.  Its a very hard skill to assess. 

 

Hmm. Brees hasn't had more than an average arm for a couple of years now. What Brees has always had is phenomenal natural accuracy. He is the most precise thrower in the NFL in my opinion, even more so than Brady. Having a big arm certainly helped earlier in his career though. 

[FireChans]

On 10/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, FireChans said:

He probably wouldn’t have needed those comebacks if he didn’t turn it over multiple times vs the Jets, or that boneheaded TO vs the Bengals. Glad he has the ability to overcome his own mistakes though.

 

On 10/24/2019 at 10:04 AM, K-9 said:

My “Josh Allen can do no wrong hero worship mantra?” What a load of crap statement. Total nonsense. 
 

Given Firechans’s take on things, I think he was being disingenuous. My question was legit. 
 

 

Case in point. Allen lets the Eagles back in.

[Bing Bong]

I find this a bit dismissive of Jared Goff's pure arm talent which is nonetheless impressive for any NFL QB. Add in how Baker, Deshaun Watson, Lamar Jackson, Pat Mahomes, Dak, and Wentz too have all solidified their role as franchise QBs and this new generation has quickly taken over the league: you make playoffs and you prove a football team can win with you as QB.. you've bought yourself time and credibility. They have all earned starting spots for a very long time and that's what I'm evaluating. This hasn't happened in a decade. They're ultra confident , competitive, and athletic. Just luck of the draw.

 

Reminds me of the Brees, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Eli, Peyton, Rodgers generation succeeding Elway, Young, Marino, Kelly, Aikman. And there were few great quarterbacks in the interim like Favre, Cam, Matt Ryan. Sometimes they come in bunches but that confident mentality is the intangible that helps them break through in such a mentally draining position IMO. I think it's more nature than nurture. 

 

I also think it's tougher to break into a league where so many veterans can consistently outclass you which is why these classes build each other up with their success. Lamar Jackson feels more comfortable competing alongside DeShaun Watson and other contemporaries. They see each other winning. Early success is also important with or without actual good QB play. Lot of those greats were winning early as game managers, like Brady, Big Ben, or at least later given time and handed a better team like Eli.

Edited October 27, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P