K-9 Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, SoTier said: Are you personally offended that a poster DARES to view Allen with any kind of objectivity rather than subscribing to your "Josh Allen can do no wrong" hero worship mantra? My “Josh Allen can do no wrong hero worship mantra?” What a load of crap statement. Total nonsense. Given Firechans’s take on things, I think he was being disingenuous. My question was legit. 1
oldmanfan Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, SoTier said: Are you personally offended that a poster DARES to view Allen with any kind of objectivity rather than subscribing to your "Josh Allen can do no wrong" hero worship mantra? It really is past time to stop your chilidishness. Have a reasonable conversation for a change.
GunnerBill Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 13 hours ago, H2o said: He's not. I haven't seen a single report where that is the case. On the other hand, this fact has been widely known about McVay and Goff since he took over. It is still massively overblown though. The idea that Goff is only doing what McVay tells him is just not true. McVay likes to get them to the line early and then call in audibles but even last year the Rams didn't get to the line early on every play. 1
Buffalo Junction Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, SoTier said: The success or failure of any offensive (or defensive) system usually depends upon the pieces that the OC (or DC) has to work into that system. I think that in Roman's case, neither Kaepernick nor Taylor were good enough to sustain it. For sure. It’s one of the reasons why Baltimore’s offense and Jackson’s development are intriguing to me. We likely won’t know for another 2-3 years. Of course, the inverse also applies... have defenses had the right type of talent to effectively scheme against Jackson and Roman yet? Lynn certainly figured the scheme out last year and ran that 3 safety nickel in the playoffs with a DB spy on Jackson. Gonna be fun to see what NE does. That offense gets to face the current top three defenses down the stretch... which is a pretty good barometer. 1
Mr. WEO Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 On 10/23/2019 at 7:39 AM, IgotBILLStopay said: Aaron Rodgers and Mahomes are the poster boys for having a QB sit and learn. Brady, Josh Allen (when he was hurt last year), Kyle Allen (this year) all benefited from sitting for a bit. Yet the Mannings, Luck, Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott are examples of throwing a QB into the deep end right away. Bottomline - every QB is different and no one method will work for everyone. That said, the article is very well written. I did not know the specifics of the Rams with Goff and it makes for an interesting read. Maybe Darnold had the same issue vs. the Pats, eh? On 10/23/2019 at 7:41 AM, billsfan1959 said: most QBs that are successful in this league for awhile, need to get through that initial couple of years striking a balance between not making so many mistakes they get benched and showing just enough promise to keep their organization's faith in them. Most high drafted QBs are going to start right away---they were drafted high because their team and their current QB, by extension, were bad. It's more the rule than the exception. They were drafted to start. GB is the outlier in that they used a 1st round pick to draft a QB with an entrenched starter in place. Josh Allen didn't sit out long enough to "learn" much (Peterman, AJ McCarron?). 1
DuckyBoys Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 Hard to let them sit when most of the teams drafting that early have a terrible qb situation to begin with Bills now have the luxury to ease some of the burden off Allen with great defense and a run game
IgotBILLStopay Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 48 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Most high drafted QBs are going to start right away---they were drafted high because their team and their current QB, by extension, were bad. It's more the rule than the exception. They were drafted to start. GB is the outlier in that they used a 1st round pick to draft a QB with an entrenched starter in place. Josh Allen didn't sit out long enough to "learn" much (Peterman, AJ McCarron?). Besides Aaron Rodgers, others who sat out at least 10 games despite being drafted in the first round are Rivers, Eli Manning, JaMarcus Russell, Jay Cutler, Goff, Mahomes, Haskins and Paxton Lynch. Even Brees (he was the first pick of the second round) waited until his 17th game to start. Mayfield and our JA would also have sat out per plan, but Peterman and Tyrod were so bad / hurt that the plans had to be changed. So it is not really a given that teams want to play most high drafted QBs early. That being said, Winston, Mariota, Tannehill, Luck, RGIII, Darnold, Newton, Bradford, Stafford etc. did start in their very first game. I agree with you that the latter is more likely than the former - But it is not as overwhelming as you characterize it to be. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, SoTier said: What I got from the ESPN article is that neither Winston nor Mariota developed enough since their rookie/sophomore seasons to be considered competent NFL QBs much less than excellent ones. Neither seems to have improved/overcome some of their worse flaws, and the situations of their teams -- coaching changes, talent levels, etc -- only obscure their failures. In Mariota's case, his frequent injuries have been used as an excuse for him, but at least some of those injuries occurred because he takes too many sacks because of flaws in his own game. IIRC both were thrown feet first into the fire and may not have had the best of coaches to work with and I agree they may have been over drafted but you get what you can if that is all you had to choose from
Manther Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/23/2019 at 7:12 AM, Hue5711 said: I second that, perfect coffee read. Very enjoyable read!
Shaw66 Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 Thurm I haven't had a chance to respond to this thread, but I wanted to thank you for posting the article. It's really interesting.
Doc Brown Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/23/2019 at 6:08 AM, Thurman#1 said: "So they ignored it. "That would be a model for teams who faced the Rams later that season, such as the Chicago Bears, the Philadelphia Eagles and of course the New England Patriots to follow. "Of course, Bill Belichick took things a step further. Since McVay insisted on feeding his quarterback information at the line of scrimmage, creating a situation where Goff had come to 'over-rely on constant and near-instant access to a higher authority,' Belichick severed the connection. "How? By calling two defensive looks in the huddle. One to show during the early part of the play clock, when McVay could still communicate with his quarterback, and the second to shift into after the rules mandate that the headset radio is turned off. "Forcing Goff to operate autonomously. "The Rams scored three points in that game. Meanwhile, the Bills under Rex Ryan. Rex Ryan unhappy Chiefs’ video board didn’t show some replays 1
Thurman#1 Posted October 25, 2019 Author Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/24/2019 at 2:44 AM, Ethan in Portland said: You nailed it. None of these guys know anything more than the casual fan when evaluating a QB. Im serious about that statement. Every team passed on Brady including the Patriots. Kurt Warner, Jamarcus Russell. The list is endless of the hits and misses by supposed experts. We as fans see the college games too. Many of us know the level of competition these guys face and the silly numbers they put up against inferior competition. Mark my words the next Oregon bust will be Herbert. This guy doesn't have a single signature win or play in his entire career. His yards come from dump offs and WR screens. He will be next in a long line of Oregon bust QBs with the notable exception of Fouts. "None of these guys know anything more than the casual fan when evaluating a QB," you say? That's nonsense. They know thousands of percent more. More in gigantic multiples. But it's true that despite knowing a ton more that picking a QB is such an extremely difficult thing to do that they can't do it perfectly or even close. And it's also almost certainly true that far more than fans think, how a QB is developed can make a huge difference. As can things like how getting big money and massive fame changes some guys.
Thurman#1 Posted October 25, 2019 Author Posted October 25, 2019 8 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Thurm I haven't had a chance to respond to this thread, but I wanted to thank you for posting the article. It's really interesting. Thanks. I really liked it too.
Thurman#1 Posted October 25, 2019 Author Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) On 10/23/2019 at 9:53 PM, GunnerBill said: Good read. Thanks for sharing. I am very much of the view that the Rams' offensive struggles are much more to do with the league working McVay out than the league working Goff out. I said a lot last season that I didn't think his offense was that innovative. Matt Patricia was right to simply ignore the jet motion as window dressing. The offense is a lot of smoke and a lot of mirrors but when you strip it all back he is basically running the Shanahan stretch zone out of 11 personnel. The key to stopping the stretch zone has always been to take the threat of the run away because most of the big passing plays generated in that style of offense are off play action. Take away the threat of the run, reduce the opportunities available deep in play action and make the offense rely on a more traditional drop back passing game and you can bottle teams running that scheme up somewhat. That is why the Rams paid big $$s to a running back with a dodgy knee. They knew Gurley was critical to making the offense go. Unfortunately for them he got injured. Then their oline aged and started to look a bit pricey. They decided to move on from John Sullivan, Roger Saffold left in free agency and suddenly the offensive line isn't winning up front and their formerly world class back has become positively average. It should be no surprise whatsoever to anyone paying attention that the team that really exposed the offense was the San Francisco 49ers coached by Kyle Shanahan.... he knows the key to that scheme better than anyone... his dad was basically the architect of the NFL version of the stretch zone scheme as a branch off from the west coast offense. When you don't have the all-pro back and you don't have much of an oline and people have started ignoring your eye candy your offense quite quickly looks dull, uninspired and a bit incoherent...... think more Rick Dennison version of the stretch zone than Gary Kubiak stretch zone. Interesting reaction, Bill. Thanks. On 10/23/2019 at 10:00 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: Great find! And with Allen's struggles with the Patriots and the Patriot-coaching-tree offenses, it does give perspective. I had wondered if the get-to-the-line-early, get-advice-from sideline was an approach the Bills were using and/or should use. This would argue - "no", it's a crutch that can fail at the worst times. I would like to note that while I don't believe Daboll is copying McVay's approach, Belicheck seems to be successfully utilizing something he did in that game against the rookie QBs. He is shifting defensive looks just before the snap, and literally forcing them to "think twice". I believe we did that to Sam in the first Jets game as well. I'd argue it's not so much something to stay away from as it is something to use only sparingly. And yeah, as Bill noted below, our safeties are confident and smart enough to delay much longer than usual, sometimes even a bit after the snap, before making the moves that QBs can use as tells on what the D is playing. It's driven Brady, among others, crazy for a couple of years now, and I'm loving it. Thanks, all, for making this a great thread. Edited October 25, 2019 by Thurman#1 2
SoTier Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 21 hours ago, K-9 said: My “Josh Allen can do no wrong hero worship mantra?” What a load of crap statement. Total nonsense. Given Firechans’s take on things, I think he was being disingenuous. My question was legit. Well, Firechance's comment on Allen was fair, and it's also disingenuous for posters to tout Allen's fourth quarter comebacks without acknowledging Atllen's own responsibility in creating the need for those comebacks. Moreover, just because a poster is skeptical about about a coach or player's ability/quality/future doesn't mean that he or she hates that player or coach and wants to see him fail.
oldmanfan Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, SoTier said: Well, Firechance's comment on Allen was fair, and it's also disingenuous for posters to tout Allen's fourth quarter comebacks without acknowledging Atllen's own responsibility in creating the need for those comebacks. Moreover, just because a poster is skeptical about about a coach or player's ability/quality/future doesn't mean that he or she hates that player or coach and wants to see him fail. Your takes on Mariota and Winston were very good, as was your thoughts on Kaepernick and Taylor. But do your really think anyone on this site thinks Allen can do no wrong? Come on now. I think Allen comes out a bit too psyched up in the beginning of games and I t affects his play early. Something he needs to work on; if I were Daboll I'd go back to the Bill Walsh playbook and script the first 15 plays or so. If it was good enough for Montana it should be good enough for Allen. But you also cannot take away the guts and moxie the kid has shown in some of these fourth quarter efforts. That is a real positive.
SoTier Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said: "None of these guys know anything more than the casual fan when evaluating a QB," you say? That's nonsense. They know thousands of percent more. More in gigantic multiples. But it's true that despite knowing a ton more that picking a QB is such an extremely difficult thing to do that they can't do it perfectly or even close. And it's also almost certainly true that far more than fans think, how a QB is developed can make a huge difference. As can things like how getting big money and massive fame changes some guys. I think that the real problem with picking QBs is that the evaluators seem to put way too much emphasis on arm strength and size to the neglect of other qualities that are much more important to NFL success. I think the most glaring -- and embarrassing -- example is the prejudice against shorter QBs. Two of the very best NFL QBs in the NFL -- Drew Brees and Russell Wilson -- weren't drafted in the first round because they were considered "too short". One of the biggest busts in NFL history was overall first draft pick in the 2007 draft, 6 foot, 6 inch JaMarcus Russell. The real key to a QB's success is what's between his ears. There are lots of tall QBs. There are lots of big throwers. There are lots of athletic runners. What there's not a lot of is guys who can almost instantly assess what they see on the football field, make the right decision of about how to react to that situation, and then execute whatever action they need to do to be successful. NFL professionals don't seem to be able to identify collegiate QB with these abilities with any kind of consistency, which is why selecting QBs seems to be such a hit or miss proposition.
oldmanfan Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, SoTier said: I think that the real problem with picking QBs is that the evaluators seem to put way too much emphasis on arm strength and size to the neglect of other qualities that are much more important to NFL success. I think the most glaring -- and embarrassing -- example is the prejudice against shorter QBs. Two of the very best NFL QBs in the NFL -- Drew Brees and Russell Wilson -- weren't drafted in the first round because they were considered "too short". One of the biggest busts in NFL history was overall first draft pick in the 2007 draft, 6 foot, 6 inch JaMarcus Russell. The real key to a QB's success is what's between his ears. There are lots of tall QBs. There are lots of big throwers. There are lots of athletic runners. What there's not a lot of is guys who can almost instantly assess what they see on the football field, make the right decision of about how to react to that situation, and then execute whatever action they need to do to be successful. NFL professionals don't seem to be able to identify collegiate QB with these abilities with any kind of consistency, which is why selecting QBs seems to be such a hit or miss proposition. well stated
Buffalo Junction Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, SoTier said: I think that the real problem with picking QBs is that the evaluators seem to put way too much emphasis on arm strength and size to the neglect of other qualities that are much more important to NFL success. I think the most glaring -- and embarrassing -- example is the prejudice against shorter QBs. Two of the very best NFL QBs in the NFL -- Drew Brees and Russell Wilson -- weren't drafted in the first round because they were considered "too short". One of the biggest busts in NFL history was overall first draft pick in the 2007 draft, 6 foot, 6 inch JaMarcus Russell. The real key to a QB's success is what's between his ears. There are lots of tall QBs. There are lots of big throwers. There are lots of athletic runners. What there's not a lot of is guys who can almost instantly assess what they see on the football field, make the right decision of about how to react to that situation, and then execute whatever action they need to do to be successful. NFL professionals don't seem to be able to identify collegiate QB with these abilities with any kind of consistency, which is why selecting QBs seems to be such a hit or miss proposition. I think part of the issue with identifying intangibles is that many of these QBs are in winning programs and surrounded by superior talent. It’s relatively easy to identify a target when you have 1-2 reads and each involves a future NFL WR facing a CB that isn’t getting into the league. Alabama aside, most teams only have a few players a year that will get a legit NFL shot. Couple that with schemes and it becomes difficult to judge. As much as we can say Tua is going to be the #1 QB, we cannot say with certainty that he will be the best NFL QB from his draft. 1
K-9 Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 2 hours ago, SoTier said: Well, Firechance's comment on Allen was fair, and it's also disingenuous for posters to tout Allen's fourth quarter comebacks without acknowledging Atllen's own responsibility in creating the need for those comebacks. Moreover, just because a poster is skeptical about about a coach or player's ability/quality/future doesn't mean that he or she hates that player or coach and wants to see him fail. All comments are “fair”. The reason why Firechans is disingenuous and I’m not, is that I’ve often been critical of Allen’s play whereas Firechans never has a positive thing to say about Allen or anything Bills. Thus he was being disingenuous when he said he was “glad” Allen can overcome mistakes and help us win games later on. Your suggestion that I point only to Allen’s positives while ignoring all his negatives is as ill-informed as it gets.
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