Question for the Liberals/Progressives on the Forum

[njbuff]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Not remotely a problem for me.

 

Along with much of my family being Trump supporters, I watch football every Sunday morning at a bar here in Hawaii with another diehard Bills fan who's also an avid Trump guy. Wife and I have gotten together multiple times with him and his wife. When the Bills made it in the playoffs due to the Tyler Boyd TD, he and I screamed and ran around the bar like lunatics... jumping and hugging.

 

I don't have a problem with real people I know who voted for Trump and still like him. I have issues with Internet message board Trump supporters who hide behind their computers, puff out their chests and pretend they know everything. And even those guys that I know are Bills fans I can easily separate and compartmentalize politics from sports.

 

Wow, what a solid response.

[3rdnlng]

4 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

I get my news from the Dark Web.  You know.  When it's dark out.  LoL...

 

I am set in my ways.

 

I have been a Liberal, progressive my whole life.  I am a New Deal Democrat if that's even possible in 2019.  Plain and simply.  I am pretty conservative in my personal life... You know, guns, God, & Bible... YET always break left... Because people who force that conservative ***** on people are azzholes.

 

I guess it's the way we are all "hardwired"... I just don't sweat the little things like life, money, love, family, etc...

 

Enlightenment is non-attachment.  Too many people are way too attached.

Those are your little things?

 

This certainly makes you appear as if you don't give ashit about anything but yourself.

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, njbuff said:

 

Wow, what a solid response.

 

...LMAO......check 'em out on the football side...YAWN.............

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...LMAO......check 'em out on the football side...YAWN.............

 

And then there are old curmudgeons like you who are just angry at the world as far as I can tell in your generally unintelligible weird stream-of-consciousness writing style.

Edited October 19, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And then there are old curmudgeons like you who, angry at the world as far as I can tell in your generally unintelligible weird stream-of-consciousness writing style.

 

 

Halite makes the PERFECT product for you to go pound...................

[Doc Brown]

I'll read what's posted here to get a better understanding to get the conservative viewpoints on events.  I rarely engage in conversation though as football fans are more malleable than political junkies.

[Koko78]

13 hours ago, njbuff said:

My question would be............

 

If the Bills win the SB, will we all be nice to one another no matter their political beliefs??

 

Cause if they do win the SB, I’d be so sky high I wouldn’t care if you supported Bill Lumbergh from Office Space for fvck sakes.

 

?

 

If the Bills won the Super Bowl, fans from all walks of life and political persuasions would work together to collectively burn downtown Buffalo to the ground in celebration.

 

It'd be a party for the ages.

 

 

[Foxx]

 

20 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Guess I'll be the first of your call-outs to answer and just assume you aren't trolling but are asking a legitimate question you want answered for curiosity's sake.  And I'm answering because with all the little quips you've given me over the years, I mostly respect you:  ...

 

again, thank you for the thoughtful response, this is the discourse i was/am looking for here.

 

yes, legitimate question as i am trying to understand if we have any hope of avoiding a violent revolution. make no mistake, we are in the beginning stages of a revolution.

 

and believe it or not, i mostly respect you as well. it is just that when something attacks my senses, i am prone to call it out. however, if you have noticed, i have not been 'mean' to you much of late (though i do reserve the right to do so when the offense is especially egregious). i did not know that it bothered you so. regardless of our bet, should i win (which i am pretty convinced i will at this point), i am going to try to be less 'mean' to you going forward. 'tis  never my intent to hurt someone beyond what would be considered topical. that said, i think you need to get a better understanding of what 'discourse' is amongst big boys. if one can't stand the heat, perhaps they have no business being in the kitchen. many factors come into play here on the 'net, including but not limited to bravado.

 

Quote

... So, when I see anyone post "sourced" material that's clearly sourced material, yes I try to read it.  I especially did so when I first stated lurking over here.  I say try to because I don't spend very much time in this sub-forum.  The last couple weeks I was here mainly because it was the bye week and it's always entertaining to come in and see responses when the debates come on.

But a lot of the "sourced" material, as you say yourself, is embedded or buried in otherwise clearly partisan bullcrap.  I'm not sifting through that crap. ...

 

this gets to the heart of my concerns, thank you. and this is important.

 

the important thing about going to sourced material that goes against our preconceived biases is that you are going to find material that you ordinarily would not find from a site that confirms ones biases. the best, easiest way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to look for quoted material and take that in outside of the narrative being projected around it. today, most of the chaff around quoted material is commentary that tries to spin a narrative that panders to the audience they are trying to appease or worse yet, lead by the nose. be it on the left or right. i say it is important because in that, if there is something that goes against what the sources biases are, they will not report said item but will cherry pick everything around it to paint the picture they want.

 

 

Quote

... I'm what you guys would absolutely call liberal, but I'm not as far left as some of the party is.  I'm not the biggest fan of Warren or Sanders, largely because I think they're taking things too far left with their Medicare for All plans.  And I will acknowledge that if Warren wins the nomination (I think Sanders is done, even if he hasn't conceded), I will be just a bit less confident in my current bet about the 2020 Presidential Race with  @Deranged Rhino. ... 

not for nothing but... is there anyone outside of Biden, in the Dem field who is not far off in left field? Warren and Sanders are so far out in left field, it is hard to see them.

 

Quote

... Regardless, yes, I'm left.  But I read as much as I can (with as often little time as I have) from both sides.  Plenty of Trump supporters in my family, though, including my older sister and her husband and my younger sister's husband.  My father-in-law, step-father-in-law, and mother-in-law are all hardcore Trump supporters along with my former brother-in-law, now divorced from my wife's sister.  

 

I'm able to have conversations with my sister, all my brother-in-laws and my step-father-in-law about politics.  We talk and even will look things up together and have serious, sometimes heated conversations.  And I still love all of them.

There's a reason I've called this place toxic.  It's very much not a place full of much open dialogue, with a handful of great posters that I've referenced in the past. ...

 

i am glad that you are able to interact with others on the opposite side of the political spectrum. we hear so many stories of those who are unable to do so because they are so insecure in their own skin and feel threatened by anyone who does not think as they do. they would much rather wall themselves off so their delicate feelings are not offended.

 

in all honesty, i don't care what your political affiliation/leanings are. the main thing i want is for people to be informed. don't believe something because you live in an echo chamber, there is no quicker way to the slaughter house than that of being led by the nose.

 

regarding this place being toxic; yes and no. i am a firm believer that you get what you give. many times i see people talking past one another here and not to each other, i am no exception. i think many have a stake in being right and do not want to be proven wrong, whereas we could all stand a little more humility to keep the fall from being so great if and when it does come. if you don't want it to be as toxic, bringing a little more truthfulness and honesty would help to mitigate the problem. if you get toxic in return, well... then you just have to consider the source and try to understand where it is coming from. many reasons why someone responds the way they do. if it becomes a pattern from a certain direction then that should tell you something as well. i have found that it always helps to look in the mirror first though. understanding ones part in an interaction is important.

 

Quote

... But here's my consistent issue, getting back to your original question: so much of even the "sourced material" provided in this sub-forum is cherry-picked, provided without clear and objective context, which is more middle than the far right this place leans.

The problem on all sides in this place is that it's really just about winning rhetorical arguments rather than taking whole picture, overarching looks at some of these issues.  Then you have the handful of posters just trolling others and throwing out one-liner insults at others.  What's the point?  What are you accomplishing? ...

 

as to the first paragraph here.. this is why your discernment is of the utmost importance. i do understand that for someone who leans towards the left, that this place can be more than one would want to handle even on a occasional basis. the perceived dog piling can seem like an attack from all sides. again, i am no angel in this either, though i do try to abstain to the occasional tort to try and help possibly with some form of understanding as one never knows what will make sense to another. 

 

i often find myself wondering these days whether or not we have returned to the days of Babel. are we all speaking different languages that in turn is going to lead to our destruction? i am fearful as to what my senses are answering on that.

 

Quote

... I guess I'd turn the question back on those here, as well.  Just the other day in another thread I was having a dialogue with a few others, brought up some facts after researching multiple sources for triangulation's sake in order to verify it, and admittedly didn't post all the links, largely because of the multiple places I went, time, and this just isn't the real world in here and I anticipated pretty much exactly what you're asking in the OP of the posters I was talking to.  Plus the information was easily accessible.

Once I was accused of not providing sources in an Ad Hominem attack, I provided the most obvious and reliable one as a starting point. 

But the truth is, I was just being trolled because the jackass poster didn't even address the issue.
 

 

here's the thing... if you are going to take a position, you best be prepared to back it up. if you are citing sources, then you need to provide that evidence so others can peruse it and either argue against it or cede that perhaps you have a point. taking a position and citing data and telling others to look it up is not how it works - i think you understand that. it is being lazy and disingenuous, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

 

turning the question back on myself... i have to say yes, yes indeed i read/watch/consume material from all sides. i source material not only from left and right sources but also from independent, foreign, conspiratorial and the woo world. they all contain grains of truth and they all contain seeds of disinformation. while i mainly try to seek the wheat, it is interesting to see the chaff from all of these places and how they contrast and/or confirm one another.

 

 

 

i guess the real impetus for me starting this thread is that i just have a hard time understanding where the left is at these days. you all scream #orangemanbad (not used as a demeaning nomer, more of catch all for the current state of play), yet from everything thing i can see and consume, every fiber of my being points to the corruption coming from the left. trust me, i am not a Trumper. i am actually politically agnostic, rather, perhaps better termed, i was before Trump came along. what i see with Trump is that he is exposing the corruption of the elite class that thinks they are above us and have thought that for too long of a time now the corruption is endemic within the system today and the only way you make it into the club is to be corrupt in some way as well. they need to be able to control you and without compromising positions to play, they use the playbook against you. you will play by their rules or you don't get to play very long. this is why i support Trump, i want the elite to be held accountable to the same laws and rules that you and i are. there is no reason they should be above us, they are, our, representatives.

 

do those of you on the left who want anyone but Trump think that if you get your wish, that it won't be anything but BAU again? i mean, it may be that the horse has left the barn and it won't matter but... these ***** have so many tricks up their sleeve, with the way they have the propaganda press in their hip pocket, i'm not convinced that we are in the clear yet.  give us 4 more years of Trump and i believe the horse will be so far down that road that there will be no return. yes, he has warts but who doesn't. it's not like the Dems would let him get away with anything. the microscope is so fine that it would be almost impossible. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Foxx

[3rdnlng]

Well said, Foxx.

[Q-baby!]

25 minutes ago, Foxx said:

 

again, thank you for the thoughtful response, this is the discourse i was/am looking for here.

 

yes, legitimate question as i am trying to understand if we have any hope of avoiding a violent revolution. make no mistake, we are in the beginning stages of a revolution.

 

and believe it or not, i mostly respect you as well. it is just that when something attacks my senses, i am prone to call it out. however, if you have noticed, i have not been 'mean' to you much of late (though i do reserve the right to do so when the offense is especially egregious). i did not know that it bothered you so. regardless of our bet, should i win (which i am pretty convinced i will at this point), i am going to try to be less 'mean' to you going forward. 'tis  never my intent to hurt someone beyond what would be considered topical. that said, i think you need to get a better understanding of what 'discourse' is amongst big boys. if one can't stand the heat, perhaps they have no business being in the kitchen. many factors come into play here on the 'net, including but not limited to bravado.

 

this gets to the heart of my concerns, thank you. and this is important.

 

the important thing about going to sourced material that goes against our preconceived biases is that you are going to find material that you ordinarily would not find from a site that confirms ones biases. the best, easiest way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to look for quoted material and take that in outside of the narrative being projected around it. today, most of the chaff around quoted material is commentary that tries to spin a narrative that panders to the audience they are trying to appease or worse yet, lead by the nose. be it on the left or right. i say it is important because in that, if there is something that goes against what the sources biases are, they will not report said item but will cherry pick everything around it to paint the picture they want.

 

 

not for nothing but... is there anyone outside of Biden, in the Dem field who is not far off in left field? Warren and Sanders are so far out in left field, it is hard to see them.

 

i am glad that you are able to interact with others on the opposite side of the political spectrum. we hear so many stories of those who are unable to do so because they are so insecure in their own skin and feel threatened by anyone who does not think as they do. they would much rather wall themselves off so their delicate feelings are not offended.

 

in all honesty, i don't care what your political affiliation/leanings are. the main thing i want is for people to be informed. don't believe something because you live in an echo chamber, there is no quicker way to the slaughter house than that of being led by the nose.

 

regarding this place being toxic; yes and no. i am a firm believer that you get what you give. many times i see people talking past one another here and not to each other, i am no exception. i think many have a stake in being right and do not want to be proven wrong, whereas we could all stand a little more humility to keep the fall from being so great if and when it does come. if you don't want it to be as toxic, be a little more truthfulness and honesty would help to mitigate the problem. if you get toxic in return, well... then you just have to consider the source and try to understand where it is coming from. many reasons why someone responds the way they do. if it becomes a pattern from a certain direction then that should tell you something as well. i have found that it always helps to look in the mirror first though. understanding ones part in an interaction is important.

 

as to the first paragraph here.. this is why your discernment is of the utmost importance. i do understand that for someone who leans towards the left, that this place can be more than one would want to handle even on a occasional basis. the perceived dog piling can seem like an attack from all sides. again, i am no angel in this either though i do try to abstain to the occasional tort to try and help possibly with some form of understanding as one never knows what will make sense to another. 

 

i often find myself wondering these days whether or not we have returned to the days of Babel. are we all speaking different languages that in turn is going to lead to our destruction? i am fearful as to what my senses are answering on that.

 

here's the thing... if you are going to take a position, you best be prepared to back it up. if you are citing sources, then you need to provide that evidence so others can peruse it and either argue against it or cede that perhaps you have a point. taking a position and citing data and telling others to look it up is not how it works - i think you understand that. it is being lazy and disingenuous, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

 

turning the question back on myself... i have to say yes, yes indeed i read/watch/consume material from all sides. i source material not only from left and right sources but also from independent, foreign, conspiratorial and the woo world. they all contain grains of truth and they all contain seeds of disinformation. while i mainly try to seek the wheat, it is interesting to see the chaff from all of these places and how they contrast and/or confirm one another.

 

 

 

i guess the real impetus for me starting this thread is that i just have a hard time understanding where the left is at these days. you all scream #orangemanbad (not used as a demeaning nomer, more of catch all for the current state of play), yet from everything thing i can see and consume, every fiber of my being points to the corruption coming from the left. trust me, i am not a Trumper. i am actually politically agnostic, rather, perhaps better termed, i was before Trump came along. what i see with Trump is that he is exposing the corruption of the elite class that thinks they are above us and have thought that for too long of a time now the corruption is endemic within the system today and the only way you make it into the club is to be corrupt in some way as well. they need to be able to control you and without compromising positions to play, they use the playbook against you. you will play by their rules or you don't get to play very long. this is why i support Trump, i want the elite to be held accountable to the same laws and rules that you and i are. there is no reason they should be above us, they are, our, representatives.

 

do those of you on the left who want anyone but Trump think that if you get your wish, that it won't be anything but BAU again? i mean, it may be that the horse has left the barn and it won't matter but... these ***** have so many tricks up their sleeve, with the way they have the propaganda press in their hip pocket, i'm not convinced that we are in the clear yet  gives us 4 more years of Trump and i believe the horse will be so far down that road that there will be no return. yes, he has warts but who doesn't. it's not like the Dems would let him get away with anything. the microscope is so fine that it would be almost impossible. 

 

 

? Hahahahahha you want the elite to be held accountable, yet you support Trump. 

[Foxx]

9 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

I get my news from the Dark Web.  You know.  When it's dark out.  LoL...

 

I am set in my ways.

 

I have been a Liberal, progressive my whole life.  I am a New Deal Democrat if that's even possible in 2019.  Plain and simply.  I am pretty conservative in my personal life... You know, guns, God, & Bible... YET always break left... Because people who force that conservative ***** on people are azzholes.

 

I guess it's the way we are all "hardwired"... I just don't sweat the little things like life, money, love, family, etc...

 

Enlightenment is non-attachment.  Too many people are way too attached.

i have always suspected you were set in your ways. the problem with that is that you become unreachable. when one is unreachable, it is not only hazardous for them, but there is a good possibility that they will become a danger to those around them. neither is a good situation.

 

your right of course (see what i did there?), conservatives who force their beliefs upon anyone is an #######. of course lefties who force their progressiveness upon anyone is... what exactly?

 

i heard an interesting quote the other day, not sure exactly how it went but it was something like...  the older we get, the more pronounced we become in what we have always been.

 

just a FYI but... i don't think enlightenment comes from being set in your ways.

[Q-baby!]

3 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i have always suspected you were set in your ways. the problem with that is that you become unreachable. when one is unreachable, it is not only hazardous for them, but there is a good possibility that they will become a danger to those around them. neither is a good situation.

 

your right of course (see what i did there?), conservatives who force their beliefs upon anyone is an #######. of course lefties who force their progressiveness upon anyone is... what exactly?

 

i heard an interesting quote the other day, not sure exactly how it went but it was something like...  the older we get, the more pronounced we become in what we have always been.

 

just a FYI but... i don't think enlightenment comes from being set in your ways.

Funny how the “other side” is always set in their ways. 

[Foxx]

5 minutes ago, Q-baby! said:

Funny how the “other side” is always set in their ways. 

did you read his post. his words, not mine.

 

have the balls to come back as one of your other sock puppets and actually contribute.

 

run along now.

[Q-baby!]

11 minutes ago, Foxx said:

did you read his post. his words, not mine.

 

have the balls to come back as one of your other sock puppets and actually contribute.

 

run along now.

Sure thing liar. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

29 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i have always suspected you were set in your ways. the problem with that is that you become unreachable. when one is unreachable, it is not only hazardous for them, but there is a good possibility that they will become a danger to those around them. neither is a good situation.

 

your right of course (see what i did there?), conservatives who force their beliefs upon anyone is an #######. of course lefties who force their progressiveness upon anyone is... what exactly?

 

i heard an interesting quote the other day, not sure exactly how it went but it was something like...  the older we get, the more pronounced we become in what we have always been.

 

just a FYI but... i don't think enlightenment comes from being set in your ways.

Set in my ways = set in my political beliefs.  

[DC Tom]

Whenever liberals brag about their open-mindedness, all I hear is Claire telling Elwood "We play both kinds, country, and western!"

[Foxx]

2 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Set in my ways = set in my political beliefs.  

i understood that. my post stands.

[Q-baby!]

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

Whenever liberals brag about their open-mindedness, all I hear is Claire telling Elwood "We play both kinds, country, and western!"

Sure, just liberals. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, Foxx said:

i understood that. my post stands.

Wow... Finally somebody understood what I said.  I guess there is hope.

[DC Tom]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

Wow... Finally somebody understood what I said.  I guess there is hope.

 

He's probably just drunk.