ALLEN1QB Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 It seems like every game I watch they are running that play. 1
MJS Posted October 14, 2019 Author Posted October 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, ALLEN1QB said: It seems like every game I watch they are running that play. Seems to be more common in high school and college and less in the NFL, but apparently it is picking up more and more steam.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, MJS said: I was watching the Texans vs Chiefs highlights and recognized a play. It's the same play (or very similar) to the one Brian Daboll has been using with great success in games this year. It's the little forward handoff / pass to Isaiah McKenzie that went for big yards. Not sure what to call the play. It's basically a hand off but counts as a forward pass. We've used this play other times throughout the season and it usually goes for good yardage. The Texans use the same play at 4:44 in the below video (you'll probably have to click through the link to Youtube since the NFL restricts their content): The outcome was not favorable for the Texans, but it is obviously a very similar play to what the Bills use. This is probably a play that does not originate with Daboll, but perhaps his success using it has caused other teams to use it more. Here's Daboll calling the same play against the Titans (at 7:44 in the video): Very similar alignment. The Bills use an extra receiver as a blocker while the Texans use an extra linemen (or perhaps TE) on the line to block. I wonder if this is taken straight out of the Patriot's playbook since both the Bills and the Texans have coaches that used to be in New England, although off the top of my head I don't remember the Patriots using this (they definitely could have, though). I think it's a variant of the jet sweep run from shotgun instead of from under center. In a jet sweep, the QB normally takes the snap under center and turns around to put it in the WR's belly as he runs behind him. Since Allen was taking the snap from shotgun, McKensie ran in front and he tossed it to him. 3
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 19 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said: We could probably say that for any screen pass, slant, dump off. Plus they have worked this year for the Bills...probably more of the reason why they do them...rather than just stat padding. Oh yeah for sure. But that shovel pass is the one play most fans could make. Hell screens and slants have been difficult for our qbs to complete over the years.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 31 minutes ago, whatdrought said: It's called a shovel pass... It counts as a forward pass which is beneficial cause if it's mishandled it's not a fumble, whereas a handoff on a sweep is tricky. The chiefs ran this a ton last year which accounted for several of Mahomes td "passes" I think the classic shovel pass involves following a pulling guard, which I don't think this play does. I'll put it out there that I'm pretty much self taught at football from watching games and film and I'm not the "go to" for terminology. Here:http://insider.afca.com/xs-os-resurgence-shovel-pass/ 19 minutes ago, MJS said: Jet sweep is a running play, not a passing play. It is a hand off or a toss backward. EDIT: Ah, I found out the name. Fly Sweep: The Fly Sweep is a combination of both plays in one (Sweep and Jet Sweep). It is similar to the toss in that the RB can read and look to cut up upfield at any point where the defense overreacts. It is also similar to the Jet in that it involves a motion before the snap. The speed of the motion is kept at about 80% instead of all out. Sweep and Jet Sweep are both running plays though, whereas the Fly Sweep counts as a pass play because the ball travels forward slightly. In the Fly Sweep, the running back will come back in an orbit motion from a wing alignment. Wing alignments are usually about a one yard back by one yard outside the widest lineman. Fair enough. Some sources say the Jet sweep and fly sweep are the same play, but the distinction of one being a backward handoff and the other a forward pass makes sense to me.https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2014/11/5/7132567/football-101-difference-between-a-jet-sweep-an-end-around-reverse 2 1
Johnnycage46 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: Oh yeah for sure. But that shovel pass is the one play most fans could make. Hell screens and slants have been difficult for our qbs to complete over the years. Have to agree there. I think the one thing I like about the jet sweep stuff is (based on what I've been hearing on the radio and reading...not based on my own "film study") is that Dabol appears to be using it a lot to set things up for later in the game. 2
CincyBillsFan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 23 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: the 90's Bills ran something similar towards the end of their run that sticks out to me, but mostly because it flat out usually didn't work at the time and I would always be frustrated when they called it. But hey, if modern D's aren't prepared for it, carry on Dabs until they prove they can stop us! Yep I remember it to. It seemed to always get blown up. Remember in the playoff game at Rich Stadium against Jacksonville that we lost? Kelly tried a shovel pass and it was INTERCEPTED! The difference today is that they're doing it off a jet sweep to a lesser known player. Back in the day it was a static two yard forward pitch to Thomas who the other team was keying on! 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: It’s called the QB stat padder. Was this useful? Insightful? 1 1
billsfan1959 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: It’s called the QB stat padder. Apparently, only recognized as such for certain QBs... 2 1
bigK14094 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: the 90's Bills ran something similar towards the end of their run that sticks out to me, but mostly because it flat out usually didn't work at the time and I would always be frustrated when they called it. But hey, if modern D's aren't prepared for it, carry on Dabs until they prove they can stop us! Yes, Tasker ran it........back in the day....only he occasionally cut it up inside for nice gains as well...maybe it was blocked that way don't know. But it worked going outside or inside. I liked the version this year where the tight end ran it......never heard of that before. Edited October 14, 2019 by bigK14094 Forfgot something 2
MJS Posted October 14, 2019 Author Posted October 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think the classic shovel pass involves following a pulling guard, which I don't think this play does. I'll put it out there that I'm pretty much self taught at football from watching games and film and I'm not the "go to" for terminology. Here:http://insider.afca.com/xs-os-resurgence-shovel-pass/ Fair enough. Some sources say the Jet sweep and fly sweep are the same play, but the distinction of one being a backward handoff and the other a forward pass makes sense to me.https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2014/11/5/7132567/football-101-difference-between-a-jet-sweep-an-end-around-reverse Yeah, I only looked at one source and that's how they explained it. 8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Oh yeah for sure. But that shovel pass is the one play most fans could make. Hell screens and slants have been difficult for our qbs to complete over the years. And Allen had to jump up to catch the high snap and still got the ball to McKenzie. 1
Saxum Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Was this useful? Insightful? Yes it is an identifier or as called in gambling, a tell. 2
fergie's ire Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 The first I remember doing it with any regularity were the Patriots...and the way it was used was a typical Belichickian gaming the system play. It was, essentially, a handoff..but would be out of Brady's hand just long enough (like 6 inches) so that if there was a problem with the exchange the ball would not be live. Also, if the play were about to be blown up, it could be dropped and ball would go back to the line of scrimmage. I remember Josh Allen did the same thing last year (don't remember what game) but it was called a fumble...which was upheld in review, but I am not sure why. It looked like one of Brady's 6 inch in air yards passes. 1
MJS Posted October 14, 2019 Author Posted October 14, 2019 10 minutes ago, fergie's ire said: The first I remember doing it with any regularity were the Patriots...and the way it was used was a typical Belichickian gaming the system play. It was, essentially, a handoff..but would be out of Brady's hand just long enough (like 6 inches) so that if there was a problem with the exchange the ball would not be live. Also, if the play were about to be blown up, it could be dropped and ball would go back to the line of scrimmage. I remember Josh Allen did the same thing last year (don't remember what game) but it was called a fumble...which was upheld in review, but I am not sure why. It looked like one of Brady's 6 inch in air yards passes. Ah, ok. I figured this was a Patriots play since Daboll uses the Patriots offense, but I didn't remember the Pats running it. 1 minute ago, Charles Romes said: It’s been a big stat builder for Allen Hope it continues to be. It's been an effective play. Takes perfect timing, though. You see jet sweeps and other presnap motion plays result in fumbles when the timing is off.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 35 minutes ago, MJS said: Yeah, I only looked at one source and that's how they explained it. And Allen had to jump up to catch the high snap and still got the ball to McKenzie. This is actually a bit of a concern to me. It perhaps reflects the lack of playing time Morse had in preseason. A lot of the shotgun snaps are a bit off-target. Allen has to reach for them, either up or to the side which I think slows things down a fraction. Hopefully they will refine this as the season goes on.
Warcodered Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This is actually a bit of a concern to me. It perhaps reflects the lack of playing time Morse had in preseason. A lot of the shotgun snaps are a bit off-target. Allen has to reach for them, either up or to the side which I think slows things down a fraction. Hopefully they will refine this as the season goes on. I think it was Feliciano at that point in the Titans game. 1
Buffalo716 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MJS said: There's the word, although shovel passes usually flip the ball more forward past the line of scrimmage. A traditional jet sweep throws the ball backwards though, not forward, and does not count as a pass. It's technically just a jet sweep with a forward toss or a fly sweep and the Patriots and Chiefs have been running it for a while Edited October 14, 2019 by Buffalo716 1
billsfan89 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 I remember the Rams and several other teams running that same shovel pass play a lot since 2017. I am sure there are examples of it earlier than that but I know the Rams in 2017 really used it a lot to great success.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 Shovel passes have been around for some time. 1
billsfan1959 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This is actually a bit of a concern to me. It perhaps reflects the lack of playing time Morse had in preseason. A lot of the shotgun snaps are a bit off-target. Allen has to reach for them, either up or to the side which I think slows things down a fraction. Hopefully they will refine this as the season goes on. I noticed this as well - in more than one game. It seemed the ones I noticed were almost always high and to Allen's left. Not terrible, but, he still had to reach for them.
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