Putin Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, MJS said: This play seems to hinge on having a quick gadget guy like Isaiah McKenzie. His speed to the edge is imperative in the play succeeding. Didn’t we ran the same play with Knox once except it was to the left side
MJS Posted October 14, 2019 Author Posted October 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Formerly Allan in MD said: Shovel passes have been around for some time. The act of passing the ball forward is not really the topic. This is a specific play design that yes, does involve a forward pass.
Utah John Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 Going back a few decades, the shovel pass has been popular for a while and then mostly disappeared. What the Bills and others are doing now is different than the older shovel passes, which generally involved the QB flipping the ball forward, sort of alike throwing a frisbee, five yards or so to a back or receiver who had been hidden in the mix and then popped out. The Bills plays are much quicker and much shorter, a lot more like handoffs. I like the play as a way to attack a defense, but I think the stats and the rules are out of whack. I don't think this play should be counted as a pass for the QB stats. Yes, the QB releases the ball forward. Big deal. It travels a yard or less through the air. It should be counted as a rushing play since the ball carrier is really doing all the work. Also the rule says a forward pass that's dropped is just an incompletion, instead of a fumble. The fact that the ball travels a foot or so through the air doesn't make a significant difference. If the receiver drops the ball from a handoff, it's a fumble, and this is essentially the same move.
fergie's ire Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 Here's an article about it: Jet sweep story
Giving' em the Business Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 I hate to give credit to the Dolphins, but this was a Marino/Shula invention
billsfan_34 Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 This is nothing new- many a QB have been doing the “shovel pass”
Nanker Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 2 hours ago, StHustle said: I havent seen anything from Daboll I would credit him for inventing, thats a tall order for ANY coordinator to do at this point in NFL history, however he is very creative in certain aspects of the playbook and knows how to play to the strengths of roster. Well, Wrecks invented the “Butt Fumble,” didn’t he? 1
wvbillsfan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/ncaa-football/2012/1/5/2684591/dana-holgorsen-colorado-school-of-mines-orange-bowl-2012 Dana Holgerson ran the play first in the orange bowl against Clemson. Guy he knew from the Colorado School of Mines gave him the idea. Read the link above also google Holgerson Colorado school of mines and a video will be available.
Rock'em Sock'em Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 3 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said: If the QB "throws" the ball forward and the back misses it it is not a fumble but an incompletion Unless you are the Bills.
Big Turk Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 3 hours ago, MJS said: I was watching the Texans vs Chiefs highlights and recognized a play. It's the same play (or very similar) to the one Brian Daboll has been using with great success in games this year. It's the little forward handoff / pass to Isaiah McKenzie that went for big yards. Not sure what to call the play. It's basically a hand off but counts as a forward pass. We've used this play other times throughout the season and it usually goes for good yardage. The Texans use the same play at 4:44 in the below video (you'll probably have to click through the link to Youtube since the NFL restricts their content): The outcome was not favorable for the Texans, but it is obviously a very similar play to what the Bills use. This is probably a play that does not originate with Daboll, but perhaps his success using it has caused other teams to use it more. Here's Daboll calling the same play against the Titans (at 7:44 in the video): Very similar alignment. The Bills use an extra receiver as a blocker while the Texans use an extra linemen (or perhaps TE) on the line to block. I wonder if this is taken straight out of the Patriot's playbook since both the Bills and the Texans have coaches that used to be in New England, although off the top of my head I don't remember the Patriots using this (they definitely could have, though). If you are talking about the "tap pass" it was started by Sean McVay precisely because its a safe play as it is a forward pass so if they drop it its an incomplete pass and not a fumble.
Nanker Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) Not just the Raiders, but the entire League got hosed by this. Edited October 14, 2019 by Nanker
BillsSbSoon Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Much of the modern passing game ( and a big reason for inflated stats) is about getting the ball out of the QBs hands quickly and into the hands of a speedy skill position player. The longer the QB holds the ball, the bigger the risk. It’s a good creative use of a play by Daboll, but it’s not new either. So far, I’m pretty happy with Dabolls ideas and calls this year. Well yeah. Spread offenses predicate on that. Its not new
MJS Posted October 14, 2019 Author Posted October 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, matter2003 said: If you are talking about the "tap pass" it was started by Sean McVay precisely because its a safe play as it is a forward pass so if they drop it its an incomplete pass and not a fumble. Don't think McVay started it either. It's been around in High School and College for awhile. Maybe he made it more popular in the NFL a couple years ago? But others in this thread have talked about the Patriots using it a long time ago, and even the Bills in the early 90's. I just didn't know how widespread it was before I started the thread today, because it's more of a gadget play and teams don't call it a lot, so if you are only watching the Bills and a few other games a week you might miss it (like I did). Anyway, lots of teams are doing it now, and the Bills seem to call it every game. Good play.
Mr. WEO Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 4 hours ago, StHustle said: I havent seen anything from Daboll I would credit him for inventing, thats a tall order for ANY coordinator to do at this point in NFL history, however he is very creative in certain aspects of the playbook and knows how to play to the strengths of roster. TE's say "huh?....
LSHMEAB Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) This is not new; at all. BUT. I will say the sweeps/reverses/shovel passes/ whatever you want to call them seem to be pretty prominent in Daboll's offense. Thank Jebus they picked up McKenzie last season because watching Zay on these plays was painful. McKitrick is on the roster because of his ability to turn these plays into solid yardage. The reason you've seen more of these stat padders is that some genius figured out that giving the ball to the carrier would be more productive if they're right near the LOS and not 5-6 yards behind. Probably also a product of the increasing speed/athleticism of DL and LB'ers. These guys are too good in pursuit to be messing around back there. The more I think about it, the more I think the Pats were the first to start this trend in the past few years. Not a surprise. Edited October 14, 2019 by LSHMEAB
wvbillsfan Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, MJS said: Don't think McVay started it either. It's been around in High School and College for awhile. Maybe he made it more popular in the NFL a couple years ago? But others in this thread have talked about the Patriots using it a long time ago, and even the Bills in the early 90's. I just didn't know how widespread it was before I started the thread today, because it's more of a gadget play and teams don't call it a lot, so if you are only watching the Bills and a few other games a week you might miss it (like I did). Anyway, lots of teams are doing it now, and the Bills seem to call it every game. Good play. 19 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: This is not new; at all. BUT. I will say the sweeps/reverses/shovel passes/ whatever you want to call them seem to be pretty prominent in Daboll's offense. Thank Jebus they picked up McKenzie last season because watching Zay on these plays was painful. McKitrick is on the roster because of his ability to turn these plays into solid yardage. The reason you've seen more of these stat padders is that some genius figured out that giving the ball to the carrier would be more productive if they're right near the LOS and not 5-6 yards behind. Probably also a product of the increasing speed/athleticism of DL and LB'ers. These guys are too good in pursuit to be messing around back there. The more I think about it, the more I think the Pats were the first to start this trend in the past few years. Not a surprise. Started by Dana Holgerson at WVU. Posted about it in the thread earlier. Wasn’t going to say anything else about it but I can’t sit by while the pats get credit for something they didn’t do. They aren’t this great franchise everyone builds them up to be. They have a culture full of cheaters and have been caught numerous occasions. Can we stop putting them on a pedestal?
LSHMEAB Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 Just now, wvbillsfan said: Started by Dana Holgerson at WVU. Posted about it in the thread earlier. Wasn’t going to say anything else about it but I can’t sit by while the pats get credit for something they didn’t do. They aren’t this great franchise everyone builds them up to be. They have a culture full of cheaters and have been caught numerous occasions. Can we stop putting them on a pedestal? Appreciate the info about Holgerson if that is indeed correct. The Pats comment was a simple a recollection of the first time I heard people joke about it being a TD "pass." I don't even have a pedestal, so mine is empty. But NE has won 6 SB's, which is unheard of in modern football. They've obviously done a great deal of things right.
WideNine Posted October 14, 2019 Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, StHustle said: I havent seen anything from Daboll I would credit him for inventing, thats a tall order for ANY coordinator to do at this point in NFL history, however he is very creative in certain aspects of the playbook and knows how to play to the strengths of roster. I am sure it has been done before but that sweep that used our TE Knox was a twist I cannot recall seeing before personnel-wise. Knox is a big boy coming around the corner and is a mismatch for most DBs coming up to make the stop. He does get creative with the personnel he uses in roles. Works more often than not. Edited October 14, 2019 by WideNine
JESSEFEFFER Posted October 15, 2019 Posted October 15, 2019 5 hours ago, fergie's ire said: The first I remember doing it with any regularity were the Patriots...and the way it was used was a typical Belichickian gaming the system play. It was, essentially, a handoff..but would be out of Brady's hand just long enough (like 6 inches) so that if there was a problem with the exchange the ball would not be live. Also, if the play were about to be blown up, it could be dropped and ball would go back to the line of scrimmage. I remember Josh Allen did the same thing last year (don't remember what game) but it was called a fumble...which was upheld in review, but I am not sure why. It looked like one of Brady's 6 inch in air yards passes. I think the snap was high which screwed up the timing. Josh handled it with both hands but in almost volleyball fashion so the refs ruled he never possessed it to make it a legit pass.
fergie's ire Posted October 15, 2019 Posted October 15, 2019 11 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said: I think the snap was high which screwed up the timing. Josh handled it with both hands but in almost volleyball fashion so the refs ruled he never possessed it to make it a legit pass. That actually makes sense. Thanks.
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