Josh Allen haters: a 10 year history lesson on 1st round QBʻs

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

We scored 14 points. 

 

We scored 7 more than they did

 

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I generally agree. However, it would be great to see a monster game once against a good team from Allen.  

This feels a little Mark sanchez like.  And that’s fine because I love a playoff run but it makes me nervous long term. 

 

Why do you feel Allen is "Mark Sanchez like"?  I don't see the resemblance at all.

But in order to discuss, I need to understand what you see as the relevant factors of resemblence.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

We scored 14 points. 

Yup and that’s kinda my point.  I forgot the undrafted guy last year from SF who would have monster games last year.  Why can’t the highest drafted guy in Bills history?

 

and I get it. We’re winning.  I just want to see a complete game from our potential franchise qb.

Why is it so hard to understand that it is not just Josh Allen here.....it is

 

The fact that our defense holds everyone down

10 new starters on offense

And then it is of course because of turnovers

 

We also still have pass catchers DROPPING TOUCHDOWN passes

 

 

[Real McClappy]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is great.  Where did you get it?  If he had a Bills logo on his shirt it would be perfect.

haha, a buddy texted me a couple weeks ago with it. 

[C.Biscuit97]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We scored 7 more than they did

 

 

Why do you feel Allen is "Mark Sanchez like"?  I don't see the resemblance at all.

But in order to discuss, I need to understand what you see as the relevant factors of resemblence.

High pick qb, playing on a team with a great defense, and winning games.  Jets fans would just say he wins but ignore the overwhelming evidence that he was along for the ride.  He would have “comebacks” but it would beecause he was terrible all game and the defense kept it close. 

 

Long way way to go to see that for Allen and I think he is more physically gifted. 

[ngbills]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Why is it so hard to understand that it is not just Josh Allen here.....it is

 

The fact that our defense holds everyone down

10 new starters on offense

And then it is of course because of turnovers

 

We also still have pass catchers DROPPING TOUCHDOWN passes

 

 

And Josh Allen playing inconsistently. We should all hope this is not his ceiling. This defense will not sustain this level of play every game and for years to come. In many ways this team is winning despite Allen not because Allen. They would likely have the same outcomes and maybe actually have won the NE game if we had Tyrod Taylor level play thus far. That was not good enough and either should this version of Josh Allen. We have him because the hope is he continue to develop. I can guarantee you the coaches are not pleased and want more from him. No question. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

He also lost the AFC Championship game to the Patriots. Guy is a joke.

 

Right ... losing To a team that could only score 13 points in the super bowl? 

 

Im surprised they have tried to ditch him for a conditional 6th 

[C.Biscuit97]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Why is it so hard to understand that it is not just Josh Allen here.....it is

 

The fact that our defense holds everyone down

10 new starters on offense

And then it is of course because of turnovers

 

We also still have pass catchers DROPPING TOUCHDOWN passes

 

 

I mean this honestly. When will allowed to want more from Allen?  Am I bad fan because I want our highest drafted qb to have more tds than ints?

[John from Riverside]

Just now, ngbills said:

And Josh Allen playing inconsistently. We should all hope this is not his ceiling. This defense will not sustain this level of play every game and for years to come. In many ways this team is winning despite Allen not because Allen. They would likely have the same outcomes and maybe actually have won the NE game if we had Tyrod Taylor level play thus far. That was not good enough and either should this version of Josh Allen. We have him because the hope is he continue to develop. I can guarantee you the coaches are not pleased and want more from him. No question. 

OMFG

 

All you can ask for is playing well enough to win while showing improvement year to year....its called developing a QB (which is happening)

 

if it makes you feel better to cry over other teams toys...have at it

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean this honestly. When will allowed to want more from Allen?  Am I bad fan because I want our highest drafted qb to have more tds than ints?

No you are not a bad fan for wanting it

 

As long as you recognize that the arrow is pointing up and that it is journey to develop a QB like this

[C.Biscuit97]

20 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

QBs mature at different progressions......

 

And if you cannot see the improvements in his game even from year 1 I dont know what to tell you....its there and verifiable both statistically and visably

And this is what I always worried about with Allen. We are just going to keep hearing about raw he is and how he needs a little more time. 

 

Ive grown to really like how he carries himself and he has shown some progression in the short game.  But he is so inconsistent and I just hope that’s not going to be his whole career. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

This does support the argument that those who have posted if Allen's a bust McD and Beane should be fired for wasting a high pick.  The rate of success with QB's where ever they are drafted is very low.  If it turns out Oliver or Edmunds, or Tre are busts then yes, but faulting a GM for picking a bad QB is silly and just setting the team back years again to start over.  There was not a no brainer in the 2017 draft class either.  Both Mayfield and Darnold the two drafted highest did also have question marks about them too.  

 

I do wonder what has happend to Goff though?

[ngbills]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

OMFG

 

All you can ask for is playing well enough to win while showing improvement year to year....its called developing a QB (which is happening)

 

if it makes you feel better to cry over other teams toys...have at it

Play well enough to win? Then why not just keep Tyrod or find the most mediocre Qb that will protect the ball?

 

I am not saying we ditch Allen. I just disagree with all the attempts to show he is actually playing great, he is actually better than xyz, this is the plan with him, its WR fault, fill in your excuse here.

 

Yes, it is going to be a development process. Nothing wrong with being honest when the guy struggles. I dont think I have ever "cried over other team toys". 

[Teddy KGB]

MVP but losing lately ???

 

I want one of those 

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

This does support the argument that those who have posted if Allen's a bust McD and Beane should be fired for wasting a high pick.  The rate of success with QB's where ever they are drafted is very low.  If it turns out Oliver or Edmunds, or Tre are busts then yes, but faulting a GM for picking a bad QB is silly and just setting the team back years again to start over.  There was not a no brainer in the 2017 draft class either.  Both Mayfield and Darnold the two drafted highest did also have question marks about them too.  

 

I do wonder what has happend to Goff though?

What happened with Goff is the common misconception about what wins football.  Goff lost some good O linemen and now he is getting more pressure.  

 

I know I’m old fashioned but football starts up front.  Win the battles up front, win the games.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

What happened with Goff is the common misconception about what wins football.  Goff lost some good O linemen and now he is getting more pressure.  

 

I know I’m old fashioned but football starts up front.  Win the battles up front, win the games.

 

don't follow other teams that closely, was it due to lack of $$ to pay them or they made some bad cuts?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

High pick qb, playing on a team with a great defense, and winning games.  Jets fans would just say he wins but ignore the overwhelming evidence that he was along for the ride.  He would have “comebacks” but it would beecause he was terrible all game and the defense kept it close.

 

OK.    So I'll give you 3 differences:

1) In 4 years playing on the Jets including with solid veteran WRs, a strong run game, and a good OL, Sanchez best completion % was 56%.  His 4 year average was 55%.

     So far this year, Allen has improved from 53% to 63%.  If Allen keeps it up, that's a very significant improvement his 2nd year.

2) Sanchez lacked the athleticism and rushing ability that Allen possesses - he actually was seen as athletic in college, perhaps a knee injury in college put paid to it.

3) Josh Allen seems to be taking a step in his progressions his 2nd year in the pros.  Mark Sanchez was rumored to be struggling with Schottenheimer's playbook in his 3rd season.  Now this may reflect relative experience: Allen played for 3 years in college, where Sanchez chose to declare for the draft after 1 season.  Sanchez did start looking like a real QB in his 5th season, playing for Shurmer in Philly, so there's that. 

 

I don't think the Bills had a great defense last year.  I'd call 18th on points mediocre.  We got blown out in what, 5 games?

 

Has Allen arrived, No.  He has to progress as a QB to show that he's The Man, in particular with "taking what the D is giving him" and protecting the football. 

But is it reasonable to compare him to Sanchez? Also, No.

 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And this is what I always worried about with Allen. We are just going to keep hearing about raw he is and how he needs a little more time. 

 

Ive grown to really like how he carries himself and he has shown some progression in the short game.  But he is so inconsistent and I just hope that’s not going to be his whole career. 

Rushing yards are way down because he is not just taking off out of the pocket at the first sight of trouble and

 

22 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Play well enough to win? Then why not just keep Tyrod or find the most mediocre Qb that will protect the ball?

 

I am not saying we ditch Allen. I just disagree with all the attempts to show he is actually playing great, he is actually better than xyz, this is the plan with him, its WR fault, fill in your excuse here.

 

Yes, it is going to be a development process. Nothing wrong with being honest when the guy struggles. I dont think I have ever "cried over other team toys". 

Josh Allen is a better QB then Tyrod (who I supported)...is playing better......and who has MUCH more upside.

 

Find a way to keep Tyrod in the pocket and we were toast.....Josh can actually throw the ball

[Beast]

If all the players were released into a pool and were drafted again, Mahomes would go 1st overall.

 

Justifiably so.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

don't follow other teams that closely, was it due to lack of $$ to pay them or they made some bad cuts?

I think $$.  Lost some guys to free agency

[Don Otreply]

5 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

No sorry, but I encourage you to try again. Every borderline insane opinion is not a valid “bills’ fan” let’s go buffalo-approved one just because they try to paint an Allen compliment in through the back door.

Truly his reckoning is upon him. 

It does appear your opinion is something you have grown to believe is fact, and that seems to work for you, and I am happy for you, But still, I digress, Go Bills!!! ?

[MR8]

I pulled the first 5 years passing statistics of the 30 Quarterbacks drafted since 2010 and put them in a spreadsheet for a statistical look of all the QBs taken there.

So I am going to post some stats that I thought were important but I want to open it up to everyone, lemme know what stats you want, or if you want the spreadsheet I am more than willing to share it.

YEAR 1

I decided to make 6 starts or more their rookie season, it's just under half but enough to get a bit of a look at a QB. If you'd like me to alter the data another way I can... the guys who were weeded out because of insufficient starts: Daniel Jones (4), Tim Tebow (3), Paxton Lynch (2), Johnny Manziel (2), Patrick Mahomes (1), Dwayne Haskins (0), Jake Locker (0)

What I am going to post is the top 10 at each of the following Category with Allen inserted in (If he's not in the top 10), and the Average of all QBs.

Number of Games Started:
 

Ranking	Name	GS
1	Andrew Luck	16
2	Carson Wentz	16
3	Sam Bradford	16
4	Ryan Tannehill	16
5	Cam Newton	16
6	Jameis Winston	16
7	Robert Griffin III	15
8	Brandon Weeden	15
9	Blaine Gabbert	14
10	Baker Mayfield	13
17	Josh Allen	11
	GROUP AVERAGE	14.9

Win Percentage:
 

Ranking	Name	GS	Wins	Losses	Win%
1	Lamar Jackson	7	6	1	86%
2	Andrew Luck	16	11	5	69%
3	Robert Griffin III	15	9	6	60%
4	Teddy Bridgewater	12	6	6	50%
5	Deshaun Watson	6	3	3	50%
6	Baker Mayfield	13	6	7	46%
7	Josh Allen	11	5	6	45%
8	Carson Wentz	16	7	9	44%
9	Sam Bradford	16	7	9	44%
10	Ryan Tannehill	16	7	9	44%
	GROUP AVERAGE	12.4	4.9	7.4	39.5%

Completion Percentage: (This one I left the whole list because I was surprised Luck was as low as he was)
 

Ranking	Name	Cmp%
1	Robert Griffin III	65.6
2	Teddy Bridgewater	64.4
3	Kyler Murray	64.3
4	Baker Mayfield	63.8
5	Carson Wentz	62.4
6	Marcus Mariota	62.2
7	Deshaun Watson	61.8
8	Sam Bradford	60
9	Cam Newton	60
10	Mitchell Trubisky	59.4
11	Blake Bortles	58.9
12	EJ Manuel	58.8
13	Ryan Tannehill	58.3
14	Jameis Winston	58.3
15	Lamar Jackson	58.2
16	Sam Darnold	57.7
17	Brandon Weeden	57.4
18	Josh Rosen	55.2
19	Jared Goff	54.6
20	Christian Ponder	54.3
21	Andrew Luck	54.1
22	Josh Allen	52.8
23	Blaine Gabbert	50.8
	GROUP AVERAGE	59%

Yards:
 

1	Andrew Luck	4374
2	Cam Newton	4051
3	Jameis Winston	4042
4	Carson Wentz	3782
5	Baker Mayfield	3725
6	Sam Bradford	3512
7	Brandon Weeden	3385
8	Ryan Tannehill	3294
9	Robert Griffin III	3200
10	Teddy Bridgewater	2919
11	Blake Bortles	2908
12	Sam Darnold	2865
13	Marcus Mariota	2818
14	Josh Rosen	2278
15	Blaine Gabbert	2214
16	Mitchell Trubisky	2193
17	Josh Allen	2074
18	EJ Manuel	1972
19	Christian Ponder	1853
20	Deshaun Watson	1699
21	Kyler Murray	1664
22	Lamar Jackson	1201
23	Jared Goff	1089
	Group Average	2744

Touch Downs:
 

Ranking	Name	TD
1	Baker Mayfield	27
2	Andrew Luck	23
3	Jameis Winston	22
4	Cam Newton	21
5	Robert Griffin III	20
6	Marcus Mariota	19
7	Deshaun Watson	19
8	Sam Bradford	18
9	Sam Darnold	17
10	Carson Wentz	16
11	Teddy Bridgewater	14
12	Brandon Weeden	14
13	Christian Ponder	13
14	Ryan Tannehill	12
15	Blaine Gabbert	12
16	Blake Bortles	11
17	EJ Manuel	11
18	Josh Rosen	11
19	Josh Allen	10
20	Kyler Murray	7
21	Mitchell Trubisky	7
22	Lamar Jackson	6
23	Jared Goff	5
	GROUP AVERAGE	14.5

Interceptions:
 

Ranking	Name	Int
1	Andrew Luck	18
2	Cam Newton	17
3	Brandon Weeden	17
4	Blake Bortles	17
5	Jameis Winston	15
6	Sam Bradford	15
7	Sam Darnold	15
8	Carson Wentz	14
9	Baker Mayfield	14
10	Josh Rosen	14
11	Ryan Tannehill	13
12	Christian Ponder	13
13	Teddy Bridgewater	12
14	Josh Allen	12
15	Blaine Gabbert	11
16	Marcus Mariota	10
17	EJ Manuel	9
18	Deshaun Watson	8
19	Mitchell Trubisky	7
20	Jared Goff	7
21	Robert Griffin III	5
22	Kyler Murray	4
23	Lamar Jackson	3
	Group Average	11.7

I will try and get year 2 done tonight, but definitely tomorrow.