Mayfield and Mahomes

[Yav]

28 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I disagree because it eliminates what makes some QB's so good in their ability to scan the entire defense both pre and post snap.. Sometimes, and maybe even more often than not the correct play is to make the short pass knowing: 

 

1. More likely to complete

2. Receiver has room to run

 

 

 

I disagree, over time if you have a QB that consistently throws a 1 yard pass that a skill player breaks for 10+ and ends up with a high completion percentage that doesn’t really translate to an elite QB (see Alex Smith). I think it would be a better judge of accuracy 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Yav said:

I disagree, over time if you have a QB that consistently throws a 1 yard pass that a skill player breaks for 10+ and ends up with a high completion percentage that doesn’t really translate to an elite QB (see Alex Smith). I think it would be a better judge of accuracy 

 

Smith is only one example. On the other end of the spectrum you have a guy like Brady who makes tons of short throws but can also make the intermediate and deeper throws when called for? Good QB's like Brees and Brady use the entire field and that includes short, high percentage throws where their backs and receivers can get yac. They are able to do this because they have proven overtime that defenses must cover the entire field when playing against them, opening things up underneath.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Yav said:

I disagree, over time if you have a QB that consistently throws a 1 yard pass that a skill player breaks for 10+ and ends up with a high completion percentage that doesn’t really translate to an elite QB (see Alex Smith). I think it would be a better judge of accuracy 

 

The problem with that is the GOAT also has never been a big chuck it down the field guy. Brady has made a living out of being so precise with his ball placement that a yard throw is a 26 yard gain. Unless you don't think Brady is elite? I agree with you there are conservative guys like Smith and Ryan Tannehill whose numbers are totally flattered by YAC but it isn't true of everyone. 

[Sundancer]

5 hours ago, Yav said:

This is accurate. I watched this game at the sport book in Vegas and Mahomes did not look good at all. He had an early 56 yard play that should have come back as it was a pick play. He consistently throws off his back foot and his skill players make plays on a poorly thrown ball. It’s annoying because Mahomes fan boys will tell you foot work doesn’t matter, but if Allen were to throw off his back foot they’d scream and cry about it. 
 

Mahomes is a good QB but that’s where it ends. People need to start watching his games and not the highlights of the great plays his skill players make. He consistently under throws his WR and they make adjustments and make the play. 
 

Last year KC was the 2nd best team in their division and this year they are the best of a mediocre division. 
 

If the Bills start running the ball more and take that pressure off Allen they will be a dominant team in the AFC. 
 

what’s worse is this is a Bills message board and yet there’s so much damn talk about the freaking Chefs, makes me sick.

 

Every GM would take Mahomes over Allen right now and probably over every QB. Every one. 

 

And I love Allen. But this is stupid. Mahomes is averaging Allen's best game. 

[BillsFan17]

W/L are a team stat.

 

I have a feeling people who throw around W/L as if it's a QB stat are the same people who use +/- when discussing hockey players.

9 hours ago, Yav said:

This is accurate. I watched this game at the sport book in Vegas and Mahomes did not look good at all. He had an early 56 yard play that should have come back as it was a pick play. He consistently throws off his back foot and his skill players make plays on a poorly thrown ball. It’s annoying because Mahomes fan boys will tell you foot work doesn’t matter, but if Allen were to throw off his back foot they’d scream and cry about it. 
 

Mahomes is a good QB but that’s where it ends. People need to start watching his games and not the highlights of the great plays his skill players make. He consistently under throws his WR and they make adjustments and make the play. 
 

Last year KC was the 2nd best team in their division and this year they are the best of a mediocre division. 
 

If the Bills start running the ball more and take that pressure off Allen they will be a dominant team in the AFC. 
 

what’s worse is this is a Bills message board and yet there’s so much damn talk about the freaking Chefs, makes me sick.

"Hes a good QB and that's where it ends"... 

 

What... the... *****

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

Every GM would take Mahomes over Allen right now and probably over every QB. Every one. 

 

And I love Allen. But this is stupid. Mahomes is averaging Allen's best game. 

At this moment in time yes

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, Yav said:

This is accurate. I watched this game at the sport book in Vegas and Mahomes did not look good at all. He had an early 56 yard play that should have come back as it was a pick play. He consistently throws off his back foot and his skill players make plays on a poorly thrown ball. It’s annoying because Mahomes fan boys will tell you foot work doesn’t matter, but if Allen were to throw off his back foot they’d scream and cry about it. 
 

Mahomes is a good QB but that’s where it ends. People need to start watching his games and not the highlights of the great plays his skill players make. He consistently under throws his WR and they make adjustments and make the play. 
 

Last year KC was the 2nd best team in their division and this year they are the best of a mediocre division. 
 

If the Bills start running the ball more and take that pressure off Allen they will be a dominant team in the AFC. 
 

what’s worse is this is a Bills message board and yet there’s so much damn talk about the freaking Chefs, makes me sick.

Skip Bayless would be proud of these ? takes.

[C.Biscuit97]

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

You said he had better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie, but used a 2019 statistical category that Allen was superior to Jackson in during their respective rookie campaigns. Adjusted for games started. 

 

What world are we in to question Allen's opponents and not Jackson's? Have you seen the teams he's put up his big numbers against? MIA, Arizona, Browns (sort of), Cincy...Those are the 30th, 31st, 32nd, and 23rd ranked defenses in the league. When he went against even an average one in Pitt, his numbers go 19/28, 161 yards, 1TD/3INT. 

 

Allen, meanwhile, has played the number 1 defense (Pats), the number 8 defense (Titans), outplayed Jackson versus the same team in Cincy, and played one average defense in the Jets (and imo played MUCH better than Jackson did vs a comparable defense in Pitt) and one bad defense in the Giants (and played very well imo). Jackson has had the easier go of it thus far by a longshot. 

 

Edited for incorrect comp%

How did Allen have a better game than Jackson against Bengals? That’s simply not true. I do agree their schedule has been weak but he has looked pretty good and definitely improved. 

 

I actually had Allen and Jackson rated on the same level when they came out.  It will be interesting how they both continue to develop.

[Yav]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Smith is only one example. On the other end of the spectrum you have a guy like Brady who makes tons of short throws but can also make the intermediate and deeper throws when called for? Good QB's like Brees and Brady use the entire field and that includes short, high percentage throws where their backs and receivers can get yac. They are able to do this because they have proven overtime that defenses must cover the entire field when playing against them, opening things up underneath.

This is only supporting what I'm saying. I'm fine with QBs hitting the short stuff, but if that's all they are doing then they aren't hitting the intermediate and deeper throws. Actually keeping track of how far they are throwing the ball instead of adding in the YAC would help give a better view of the QBs progress and ability. 

 

If you have a guy who throws 30 passes in a game and ends up with 350 yards and say 78% completion percentage and 3TDs - you'd say that's a great QB, 

then looking into that you see he actually only threw the ball over 5 yards 5 of those 30 throws and hit on say 1 one of them, really how good is that QB? 

 

Now if you had the actual numbers and the removed the YAC perhaps that QB only threw for say 110 yards and 0TDs and a 78% - Not that impressive now is it? 

 

I know this maybe an extreme case but guys like Smith and Dilfer had great careers and many fans in Buffalo would have been delighted to have a guy like Smith as the Bills QB and yet a guy like Taylor was in Buffalo and would only take the short stuff and we can all agree they needed to upgrade. 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. 

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The problem with that is the GOAT also has never been a big chuck it down the field guy. Brady has made a living out of being so precise with his ball placement that a yard throw is a 26 yard gain. Unless you don't think Brady is elite? I agree with you there are conservative guys like Smith and Ryan Tannehill whose numbers are totally flattered by YAC but it isn't true of everyone. 

Brady has proven he can get the chunks - see the Moss years. 

I'm not saying a QB that dinks and dunks can't be great, what I'm saying is show us the actual numbers and not a skewed number that includes a players ability to run after the catch. This would also help evaluate the skill players as well, you can see a QB is actually delivering a ball 4 yards to a skill player who has the ability to break tackles and turn that 4 yard catch into a 26 yard gain on a consistent basis. Now the question becomes is who is more valuable? 

[Yav]

5 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

Every GM would take Mahomes over Allen right now and probably over every QB. Every one. 

 

And I love Allen. But this is stupid. Mahomes is averaging Allen's best game. 

You can have him, I can't stand the love for Mahomes and I'm not impressed with a guy that consistently throws off his back foot and just chucks a ball in the air and has great play makers adjusting to the ball and making circus catches. I'll take the slow and steady growth of a QB that has sustainability in the league. 

[Sundancer]

16 minutes ago, Yav said:

You can have him, I can't stand the love for Mahomes and I'm not impressed with a guy that consistently throws off his back foot and just chucks a ball in the air and has great play makers adjusting to the ball and making circus catches. I'll take the slow and steady growth of a QB that has sustainability in the league. 

 

Look, I love Josh because he's ours but let's not pretend he doesn't make too many bad throws at this stage of his development. He does. He's getting better at not playing hero ball and throwing the ball away (TN game was his best yet for this) but he's got a ways to go to show he will make consistent good decisions. 

 

Mahomes has 1 INT so far this season to 14 TDs. He has no O-line and no RB.

 

He's elite. 

 

Long term, I would love for Josh to exceed Mahomes but right now, Josh's best game as a pro is Mahomes's 2019 average. 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Yav said:

 

Brady has proven he can get the chunks - see the Moss years. 

I'm not saying a QB that dinks and dunks can't be great, what I'm saying is show us the actual numbers and not a skewed number that includes a players ability to run after the catch. This would also help evaluate the skill players as well, you can see a QB is actually delivering a ball 4 yards to a skill player who has the ability to break tackles and turn that 4 yard catch into a 26 yard gain on a consistent basis. Now the question becomes is who is more valuable? 

 

Sometimes thought that is only turning a 4 yard pass into a 26 yard play if the pass is thrown with perfect precision to a guy who can catch it in stride. A pass which is still catchable but requires the receiver to just slow his route slightly means that 4 yard pass turns into a 6 yard play. So that precision has real genuine value. I guess I just don't agree that the right judgment of a Quarterback is how deep he throws it. Tom Brady, the majority of his career has been a precise short and intermediate thrower. And he has been elite doing that. If you just gave credit for air yards you would find some very questionable people above him in your pecking order. Being a top end QB is about a lot more than the deep ball. 

[Yav]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sometimes thought that is only turning a 4 yard pass into a 26 yard play if the pass is thrown with perfect precision to a guy who can catch it in stride. A pass which is still catchable but requires the receiver to just slow his route slightly means that 4 yard pass turns into a 6 yard play. So that precision has real genuine value. I guess I just don't agree that the right judgment of a Quarterback is how deep he throws it. Tom Brady, the majority of his career has been a precise short and intermediate thrower. And he has been elite doing that. If you just gave credit for air yards you would find some very questionable people above him in your pecking order. Being a top end QB is about a lot more than the deep ball. 

I don't think so because you still have YAC counted on the skill players for that team and you could still tally that as YAC for the QB as well. Not to mention you're still looking at completion %. 

 

Look at some of the arguments over the years against Bills QB's and some comments on this board about Allen, people asking when will we see a 300 yard game from Allen. That right there is part of the issue, it's not about yardage. 

3 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

Look, I love Josh because he's ours but let's not pretend he doesn't make too many bad throws at this stage of his development. He does. He's getting better at not playing hero ball and throwing the ball away (TN game was his best yet for this) but he's got a ways to go to show he will make consistent good decisions. 

 

Mahomes has 1 INT so far this season to 14 TDs. He has no O-line and no RB.

 

He's elite. 

 

Long term, I would love for Josh to exceed Mahomes but right now, Josh's best game as a pro is Mahomes's 2019 average. 

I'm not saying Allen is perfect, I'm simply saying I don't like Mahomes and if you actually watch his games not just the clips of scores, you'll see he just heaves a ball down field knowing someone will make a play. I don't like him as a QB and I'm glad the Bills didn't pick him.

[vorpma]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don’t make me come up there

Probably wont be the last time!

[vincec]

11 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

Every GM would take Mahomes over Allen right now and probably over every QB. Every one. 

 

And I love Allen. But this is stupid. Mahomes is averaging Allen's best game. 

Why do you hate the Bills? ?

[vorpma]

OK, I'm back after a twenty four hour suspension by Hapless Bills Fan for hurting feelings on TBD, my only point is Josh Allen is no different than any other young QB! But I love agitating the younger generation!!!

[WideNine]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:41 PM, vorpma said:

Since last year I have heard that Mayfield and Mahomes were the new Joe Montana and John Elway and Josh Allen a turnover machine! Looks like Josh is leading in the most important statistic - won loss record!! I also read constantly about the new NFL - pass crazy, showtime, arena football, scoreboards like a pinball machine.  Looks like the mighty KC offense and Andy Reid can get beat by ground and pound offense and great defense - how can this be?

 

The only thing Mahomes and Mayfield have in common is that their last names start with "M"

 

Not quite ready to write off KC after a few bad games. A lot of football left to play. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by WideNine

[rayray808]

Rank em:

1) Mahomes

2) Josh Allen

3) Baker

[Zerovoltz]

On 10/13/2019 at 3:41 PM, vorpma said:

Since last year I have heard that Mayfield and Mahomes were the new Joe Montana and John Elway and Josh Allen a turnover machine! Looks like Josh is leading in the most important statistic - won loss record!! I also read constantly about the new NFL - pass crazy, showtime, arena football, scoreboards like a pinball machine.  Looks like the mighty KC offense and Andy Reid can get beat by ground and pound offense and great defense - how can this be?

 

Allow me to explain "how this can be". 

 

Our (KC) Defense still sucks.  That was overcome last year by the offense.  The offense last year had some things go their way that haven't this year.  

 

Injuries have hurt the offense.  Some will point to Hill being gone....and Watkins being hurt.....again.....and that does hinder things....but the part no one nationally talks about is the O line issues.  I'd have to search my posts here, I think I've alluded to this before, but KC does NOT have a good Oline.  Mahomes masked problems there last year.  This year, the bad O line become the WORST oline in the NFL when Fisher got injured, so Cam Erving had to start at LT, next to a scrap heap LG, who got injured, so then we had Cam Erving, next to 3rd string scrap heap LG, with Austin Reiter at C....who we also got off the scrap heap last year...he'd been cut by the Redskins and Browns...he SUCKS.  The entire left side of the Oline is bad..and even when all 5 starters are healthy, KC has the worst G-C-G combo in football (we miss Morse)  This has led to pass rushers in Mahomes grill most of the time...and he has had his ankle rolled and/or stepped on THREE GAMES in a row.....when you accumulate is stats in each game PRE and POST ankle roll....it looks like you would expect it to look for a guy with an injured ankle having to face a pass rush in his face and unable to run due to the bad line.

 

Mahomes is every bit the unicorn he's been....and when healthy, and with his ankle in tact...he still can carry the whole awful team....rolled ankle, no line and injured no.1 and no.2 WR and he can't shoulder it.  

 

People will point to the Chiefs getting run on as a big problem....and I'm not gonig to tell you it's not a problem....it's a big problem....but KC has still had 9 or more possesions per game...they just haven't scored on nearly as many of thos possessions as they were last year (SEE ABOVE PROBLEMS)  If the KC offense turns a game into a track meet...Mahomes can win most of those and overcome the bad D....if the O can't put up points, then the other team grinds us (KC) into the ground.  

 

It won't get much better until Fisher comes back from injury at LT and they find someone...anyone that can at least pretend to play LG.  

 

Of note to Bills fans.....our LB corps has been so incredibly bad that Reggie Ragland is very likely to be inserted as a starter.  He isn't fast and can't cover anyone, but take my word for it...the LB we do have can't tackle, don't attack gaps, and just stand around as they get engulfed by lineman.  Ragland, AT LEAST will identify a gap and attack....so, there is that.

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Allow me to explain "how this can be". 

 

Our (KC) Defense still sucks.  That was overcome last year by the offense.  The offense last year had some things go their way that haven't this year.  

 

Injuries have hurt the offense.  Some will point to Hill being gone....and Watkins being hurt.....again.....and that does hinder things....but the part no one nationally talks about is the O line issues.  I'd have to search my posts here, I think I've alluded to this before, but KC does NOT have a good Oline.  Mahomes masked problems there last year.  This year, the bad O line become the WORST oline in the NFL when Fisher got injured, so Cam Erving had to start at LT, next to a scrap heap LG, who got injured, so then we had Cam Erving, next to 3rd string scrap heap LG, with Austin Reiter at C....who we also got off the scrap heap last year...he'd been cut by the Redskins and Browns...he SUCKS.  The entire left side of the Oline is bad..and even when all 5 starters are healthy, KC has the worst G-C-G combo in football (we miss Morse)  This has led to pass rushers in Mahomes grill most of the time...and he has had his ankle rolled and/or stepped on THREE GAMES in a row.....when you accumulate is stats in each game PRE and POST ankle roll....it looks like you would expect it to look for a guy with an injured ankle having to face a pass rush in his face and unable to run due to the bad line.

 

Mahomes is every bit the unicorn he's been....and when healthy, and with his ankle in tact...he still can carry the whole awful team....rolled ankle, no line and injured no.1 and no.2 WR and he can't shoulder it.  

 

People will point to the Chiefs getting run on as a big problem....and I'm not gonig to tell you it's not a problem....it's a big problem....but KC has still had 9 or more possesions per game...they just haven't scored on nearly as many of thos possessions as they were last year (SEE ABOVE PROBLEMS)  If the KC offense turns a game into a track meet...Mahomes can win most of those and overcome the bad D....if the O can't put up points, then the other team grinds us (KC) into the ground.  

 

It won't get much better until Fisher comes back from injury at LT and they find someone...anyone that can at least pretend to play LG.  

 

Of note to Bills fans.....our LB corps has been so incredibly bad that Reggie Ragland is very likely to be inserted as a starter.  He isn't fast and can't cover anyone, but take my word for it...the LB we do have can't tackle, don't attack gaps, and just stand around as they get engulfed by lineman.  Ragland, AT LEAST will identify a gap and attack....so, there is that.

 

I think the being run on thing goes further than just time of possession though. Indy just ran it down your throats and I agree that week after week has limited success. But in the Houston game them being able to establish Hyde meant they kept your defense off balance all day. Gave Watson lots of time on the RPO and play action looks AND scored points. So every time Mahomes and co were getting the ball back they HAD to try and match. That in turn allows the opposing defense to ignore the run even more (I do think KC need to try and establish it a little more even given the lack of push up front) and key in on rushing Mahomes. Then the pass protection woes (and I agree with you - the interior of that line is struggling big time) really show up because you have guys teeing off on your Quarterback. I still think Mahomes, even in a bit of a down game, played well enough to win on Sunday. But the other parts of his team are just not functioning. After Mahomes what is the best part of Kansas City right now? It is hard to pinpoint one.