Mayfield and Mahomes

[DCOrange]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Riiiiight

He’s literally in the 5-10 range according to Vegas. 
 

Edit: Currently tied for 5th best odds. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by DCOrange

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

He’s literally in the 5-10 range according to Vegas. 
 

Edit: Currently tied for 5th best odds. 

Currently

 

I guess I dont base things on partial seasons......Jackson (who I was high on) was actually kinda bad last year......he plays on a team that is VERY good

 

Josh Allen is playing well....also improved....and is playing on a offense that has 10 new starters.

 

Lets revisit this after the season

[DCOrange]

15 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Currently

 

I guess I dont base things on partial seasons......Jackson (who I was high on) was actually kinda bad last year......he plays on a team that is VERY good

 

Josh Allen is playing well....also improved....and is playing on a offense that has 10 new starters.

 

Lets revisit this after the season

that’s all fair, though I would argue they were pretty much all bad last season with the exception of Baker. I probably would say Lamar was 2nd best last season too and easily the best this season. 
 

As you mentioned though, it’s still early for all of these guys. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by DCOrange

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, DCOrange said:

that’s all fair, though I would argue they were pretty much all bad last season with the exception of Baker. I probably would say Lamar was 2nd best last season too and easily the best this season. 
 

As you mentioned though, it’s still early for all of these guys. 

My opinion is that Josh Allen is good enough to win right now....but I expect him to get better as the season wears on

 

Pretty raw to come into the league to begin with

Everyone said he should sit his first year and wasnt read (other QBs got the luxery of sitting behind a real QB for a year but I digress)

2nd year....over 60 percent in completion percentage

Almost an entirely new OL , 10 new starters on offense?

Working his short game now.....not auto running now....learning how to be a QB

I look for Josh to pick up steam as the season goes on

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, DCOrange said:

He’s literally in the 5-10 range according to Vegas. 
 

Edit: Currently tied for 5th best odds. 

Where? All my sites have him at least 10th back.

[Rocket94]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I bet we beat NE with Allen.

We were on our way to doing it!

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Currently

 

I guess I dont base things on partial seasons......Jackson (who I was high on) was actually kinda bad last year......he plays on a team that is VERY good

 

Josh Allen is playing well....also improved....and is playing on a offense that has 10 new starters.

 

Lets revisit this after the season

It’s just funny how people let their biases affect how they see things (this is really for you John).  Lamar was a better qb in a better conference in college.  He had better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie.  He has far superior numbers this year, 96 qb rating, 251 passing yards/ game, and 460 yards rushing. He is without a doubt an MVP candidate and yet some posters will still call him a running back playing qb. 

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Except he isnt

 

And I actually like Jackson and was a fan of him before the draft.

 

Right now it looks like Josh Allen is the best.

How is Allen the best?  I mean I want him to be but what is the actual evidence?

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I bet we beat NE with Allen.

Honest question. What has been Allen’s best game against a good team?

[billsfan1959]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s just funny how people let their biases affect how they see things (this is really for you John).  Lamar was a better qb in a better conference in college.  He had better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie.  He has far superior numbers this year, 96 qb rating, 251 passing yards/ game, and 460 yards rushing. He is without a doubt an MVP candidate and yet some posters will still call him a running back playing qb. 

How is Allen the best?  I mean I want him to be but what is the actual evidence?

Honest question. What has been Allen’s best game against a good team?

You are a prime example with Allen. You haven’t liked him from the moment he was drafted and your posts have always reflected your bias.

[DCOrange]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Where? All my sites have him at least 10th back.

It got pulled down now to update after the Packers win but the site I was looking at was Sportsbook.ag

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:48 PM, H2o said:

If KC had our defense they would have gone undefeated like Zerovoltz said. 

 

And if Peyton Manning had New England's defnese...

 

And if my Aunt had... you know the rest.

 

All I know is Andy Reid teams underachieve in the playoffs. Bills look like a more complete team than the Chiefs right now. As do quite a few other teams. KC got by with having a ridiculously good offense. If that offense is now just really good, they are going to have problems just trying to secure the 3rd or 4th seed. We will see how things go now with Hill back.

 

[Yav]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:24 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don’t forget the fumble lost.  3 TD 2 TO.

 

Did you watch the game?  Perhaps I haven’t watched him enough but I was frankly startled.  He threw a number of incompletions that could have been picked, and perhaps should have been, and that would have been called out as inaccurate throws and poor decisions if he were Allen.  

 

 

This is accurate. I watched this game at the sport book in Vegas and Mahomes did not look good at all. He had an early 56 yard play that should have come back as it was a pick play. He consistently throws off his back foot and his skill players make plays on a poorly thrown ball. It’s annoying because Mahomes fan boys will tell you foot work doesn’t matter, but if Allen were to throw off his back foot they’d scream and cry about it. 
 

Mahomes is a good QB but that’s where it ends. People need to start watching his games and not the highlights of the great plays his skill players make. He consistently under throws his WR and they make adjustments and make the play. 
 

Last year KC was the 2nd best team in their division and this year they are the best of a mediocre division. 
 

If the Bills start running the ball more and take that pressure off Allen they will be a dominant team in the AFC. 
 

what’s worse is this is a Bills message board and yet there’s so much damn talk about the freaking Chefs, makes me sick.

[Yav]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:34 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good call.  Mahomes 54% completion today, 56% and 57% prev. 2 games.

 

1st 3 games 76, 68, 72%.  

 

10 TD 0 INT first 3 games, 4 TD 1 INT last 3 games including today.

And who did they play in all those games? 
 

1. Jags (40-26 win)

2. Raider (28-10 win)

3. Ravens (33-28 win)

4. Lions (34-30 win)

5. Colts (13-19 loss)

6. Texans (24-31 loss)

 

Out of those 6 games you’re looking at 3 playoff caliber teams and KC is 1-2 vs those teams. You can also see the quality of defenses they have faced has gotten better as Mahomes numbers have gotten worse. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How is Allen the best?  I mean I want him to be but what is the actual evidence?

 

It's clearly too early to anoint any QB from the 2018 draft as the best. A debate that likely won't be settled till the end of next season. Each QB brings their own positives and negatives.

 

You want an Allen stat? 

 

(4) 4th quarter comebacks and (6) Game Winning Drives vs. 1 and 2 respectively for Jackson in three fewer games. And also more than Darnold and Baker.

 

Jackson has cooled off considerably since his hot start against Miami and Arizona. Allen gets Miami this week, a team he has put some nice numbers up against in the past. Lamar is finally starting to run the ball well in 2019 but Allen was an elite rusher last season.

 

Allen was clearly the Qb with a lot to prove coming out of a small college program with underwhelming numbers is senior year, and a lot to learn. At this point Allen has far exceeded most everyone's expectations of him. If he isn't the clear best QB of the draft class 7 weeks into his second season in the NFL, I would not find that a shocker. But the fact that you can make a legitimate case that he is at worst the 2nd best QB in the draft class with four promising QB's, that is a tip of the cap to Allen.

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s just funny how people let their biases affect how they see things (this is really for you John).  Lamar was a better qb in a better conference in college.  He had better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie.  He has far superior numbers this year, 96 qb rating, 251 passing yards/ game, and 460 yards rushing. He is without a doubt an MVP candidate and yet some posters will still call him a running back playing qb. 

How is Allen the best?  I mean I want him to be but what is the actual evidence?

Honest question. What has been Allen’s best game against a good team?

 

Either this year against the 8th ranked Titans defense, or last year against the 4th ranked Vikings defense. 

 

Honest question- do you see at all how including 2019 pass yards/game as proof of Jackson's 'far superior numbers' this year and claiming that he had 'better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie', while somehow neglecting to mention that Allen's yards/game were better than Jackson's in 2018, is pretty much the absolute pinnacle of bending the statistical analysis to fit your notions?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 minute ago, Yav said:

 

1. Jags (40-26 win)

2. Raider (28-10 win)

3. Ravens (33-28 win)

4. Lions (34-30 win)

5. Colts (13-19 loss)

6. Texans (24-31 loss)

 

Out of those 6 games you’re looking at 3 playoff caliber teams and KC is 1-2 vs those teams. You can also see the quality of defenses they have faced has gotten better as Mahomes numbers have gotten worse. 

 

It would say the Lions are as much a playoff quality team as the Colts. Heck, watch out for the Raiders. 

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Except he isnt

 

And I actually like Jackson and was a fan of him before the draft.

 

Right now it looks like Josh Allen is the best.

 

I still think it is tight between all four of them to be honest. Baker is having a bad year but he had easily the best season last year of all of them. I wouldn't count him out to not get better this year or next. And can't sleep on Darnold either. 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Either this year against the 8th ranked Titans defense, or last year against the 4th ranked Vikings defense. 

 

Honest question- do you see at all how including 2019 pass yards/game as proof of Jackson's 'far superior numbers' this year and claiming that he had 'better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie', while somehow neglecting to mention that Allen's yards/game were better than Jackson's in 2018, is pretty much the absolute pinnacle of bending the statistical analysis to fit your notions?

Minnesota is by far the best. Good call. I’m sorry I’m not that excited about 14 points last week.  But Philly will be a great test. 

 

Jackson’s passing numbers are skewed last year because he played in every game but wasn’t the full time starter. Allen probably still averaged more but there was so narrative that he was a far superior passer. I always argued that they were a lot closer than our fans wanted to admit.  And Jackson has taken his game to a level that I wasn’t sure he’d get too.  He is definitely in the MVP conversation. 

8 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

It's clearly too early to anoint any QB from the 2018 draft as the best. A debate that likely won't be settled till the end of next season. Each QB brings their own positives and negatives.

 

You want an Allen stat? 

 

(4) 4th quarter comebacks and (6) Game Winning Drives vs. 1 and 2 respectively for Jackson in three fewer games. And also more than Darnold and Baker.

 

Jackson has cooled off considerably since his hot start against Miami and Arizona. Allen gets Miami this week, a team he has put some nice numbers up against in the past. Lamar is finally starting to run the ball well in 2019 but Allen was an elite rusher last season.

 

Allen was clearly the Qb with a lot to prove coming out of a small college program with underwhelming numbers is senior year, and a lot to learn. At this point Allen has far exceeded most everyone's expectations of him. If he isn't the clear best QB of the draft class 7 weeks into his second season in the NFL, I would not find that a shocker. But the fact that you can make a legitimate case that he is at worst the 2nd best QB in the draft class with four promising QB's, that is a tip of the cap to Allen.

 

 

 

 

Game winning drives is starting to become an awful stat or needs to be adjusted.  Like if you suck all game but have a great defense and score a late td isn’t that impressive.  Also if you are on a good team and are a good qb, you stomp a team out early so you don’t have to comeback.  For example, Brady has 9 game winning drives in the last 6 years and zero this year. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question. What has been Allen’s best game against a good team?

 

We should ask the same regarding Jackson. I think you will be surprised with the answer. He certainly has none this year in his "MVP candidate season". And I have a hard time finding one from 2018.

 

Luckily stats and wins against average and poor teams count in the record books and standings as much as those against the good teams.

[Yav]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Minnesota is by far the best. Good call. I’m sorry I’m not that excited about 14 points last week.  But Philly will be a great test. 

 

Jackson’s passing numbers are skewed last year because he played in every game but wasn’t the full time starter. Allen probably still averaged more but there was so narrative that he was a far superior passer. I always argued that they were a lot closer than our fans wanted to admit.  And Jackson has taken his game to a level that I wasn’t sure he’d get too.  He is definitely in the MVP conversation. 

Game winning drives is starting to become an awful stat or needs to be adjusted.  Like if you suck all game but have a great defense and score a late td isn’t that impressive.  Also if you are on a good team and are a good qb, you stomp a team out early so you don’t have to comeback.  For example, Brady has 9 game winning drives in the last 6 years and zero this year. 

Stats in general are horrible. I think a QB should only get credit for yards the ball travels in the air and then the receiver should get YAC credit after that. It really would change how people view QBs. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Game winning drives is starting to become an awful stat or needs to be adjusted.  Like if you suck all game but have a great defense and score a late td isn’t that impressive.  Also if you are on a good team and are a good qb, you stomp a team out early so you don’t have to comeback.  For example, Brady has 9 game winning drives in the last 6 years and zero this year. 

 

Well sure. But in Allen's case what if everything about him was the same but he had only 1 4th QC and 2 GW drives? I think we would all feel a lot differently about Allen in a more negative sense. A win is a win and he has pulled some out. This isn't a case of Tim Tebow needing acts of God to pull games out of his butt.

3 minutes ago, Yav said:

Stats in general are horrible. I think a QB should only get credit for yards the ball travels in the air and then the receiver should get YAC credit after that. It really would change how people view QBs. 

 

I disagree because it eliminates what makes some QB's so good in their ability to scan the entire defense both pre and post snap.. Sometimes, and maybe even more often than not the correct play is to make the short pass knowing: 

 

1. More likely to complete

2. Receiver has room to run

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Minnesota is by far the best. Good call. I’m sorry I’m not that excited about 14 points last week.  But Philly will be a great test. 

 

Jackson’s passing numbers are skewed last year because he played in every game but wasn’t the full time starter. Allen probably still averaged more but there was so narrative that he was a far superior passer. I always argued that they were a lot closer than our fans wanted to admit.  And Jackson has taken his game to a level that I wasn’t sure he’d get too.  He is definitely in the MVP conversation. 

 

You said he had better passing numbers than Allen as a rookie, but used a 2019 statistical category that Allen was superior to Jackson in during their respective rookie campaigns. Adjusted for games started. 

 

What world are we in to question Allen's opponents and not Jackson's? Have you seen the teams he's put up his big numbers against? MIA, Arizona, Browns (sort of), Cincy...Those are the 30th, 31st, 32nd, and 23rd ranked defenses in the league. When he went against even an average one in Pitt, his numbers go 19/28, 161 yards, 1TD/3INT. 

 

Allen, meanwhile, has played the number 1 defense (Pats), the number 8 defense (Titans), outplayed Jackson versus the same team in Cincy, and played one average defense in the Jets (and imo played MUCH better than Jackson did vs a comparable defense in Pitt) and one bad defense in the Giants (and played very well imo). Jackson has had the easier go of it thus far by a longshot. 

 

Edited for incorrect comp%

Edited October 15, 2019 by GoBills808