Mayfield and Mahomes

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well we disagree strongly on Fuller then. Fuller is JAG. He is made by Deshaun Watson and his with and without Watson career numbers could not support that view any more strongly than they do. 

 

I think Allen would look better throwing to Hill and Kelce. I don't think Mahomes would look much different throwing to John Brown and Cole Beasley. 

 

You sure about that?  Both Brown and Beasley have careers being pretty much JAG.  And as you point out - last year Allen had WR who will be out of the league soon if not already.

 

I like Mahomes - I think he’s an unreal talent at QB.  But the fact is, he has been blessed with a bunch of things including:

1) a year to watch and learn behind a very good NFL vet with a very good offensive mind in his HC, who clearly put specific effort into mentoring him

2) top-notch talent in WR with Hill and at TE with Kelce.  Both can make “circus catches” with regularity

3) a talented OL with an experienced center to start him off

 

I think Mahomes laid a little bit of an egg today.  I think he’s become a bit too accustomed to being able to throw off balance and have his guys make the catch or bail him out.

 

That doesn’t mean he’s not a great QB in the making, or that Allen will be as talented a passer.  But one really can’t overlook the factors above

 

I do think Mahomes would look different throwing to Brown and Beasley without Hill to take the top off the D.

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

He gave Zay Jones >90 which I consider a far greater accomplishment.

Loool they basically have to be handoffs at that point. Fair enough 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I agree. But equivalently, Allen would benefit greatly (as Mahomes has) from his receiving corps.

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You sure about that?  Both Brown and Beasley have careers being pretty much JAG.  And as you point out - last year Allen had WR who will be out of the league soon if not already.

 

I like Mahomes - I think he’s an unreal talent at QB.  But the fact is, he has been blessed with a bunch of things including:

1) a year to watch and learn behind a very good NFL vet with a very good offensive mind in his HC, who clearly put specific effort into mentoring him

2) top-notch talent in WR with Hill and at TE with Kelce.  Both can make “circus catches” with regularity

3) a talented OL with an experienced center to start him off

 

I think Mahomes laid a little bit of an egg today.  I think he’s become a bit too accustomed to being able to throw off balance and have his guys make the catch or bail him out.

 

That doesn’t mean he’s not a great QB in the making, or that Allen will be as talented a passer.  But one really can’t overlook the factors above

 

I do think Mahomes would look different throwing to Brown and Beasley without Hill to take the top off the D.

 

 

I don't think he would look much different throwing to JAGs. Indeed he didn't when that is what he was asked to do when Hill was out. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

Wentz yes and Goff no.

 

Goff is the worst best QB I’ve ever seen. Hard to argue with his results but I’ve never watched him and been too impressed. Kinda Alex Smith like. Wins, has good numbers but something doesn’t smell right.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Wentz yes and Goff no.

 

Goff is the worst best QB I’ve ever seen. Hard to argue with his results but I’ve never watched him and been too impressed. Kinda Alex Smith like. Wins, has good numbers but something doesn’t smell right.

 

Ha you have the same irrational feeling about Goff I have about Tannehill. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha you have the same irrational feeling about Goff I have about Tannehill. 

I think I’m overly hard on the young QB’s. Spent too many years watching Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers and Rivers be surgical week in and week out. Goff misfires a 5 yard pass once and my first thought is he sucks.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, JoPar_v2 said:

I know Houston ran very successfully today, but claiming they did nothing but “ground and pound” and ignoring how awesome Watson was is bs. He would’ve been a LOT better today by the way if his receivers didn’t drop so many balls. This is why no one takes you seriously.

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

 

Not people who watched the game wouldn't. 

[Scott7975]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Not people who watched the game wouldn't. 

 

I think some would.  There are some here that criticize him even when he doesn't deserve it.

[JoPar_v2]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

I have to disagree. I bad pick into double coverage yes. Plus he had more than 1 TD. Watson played a great game (not amazing.)

[947]

Mahomes is the new Dan Marino. Tons of arm talent, major breakout & career year in his 2nd season, and a regular season star on a team with subpar Defense. I think his career arc will mirror Dan's.

[thenorthremembers]

Mahomes has been a product of extreme athleticism and an amazing support cast.  His ankle is messed up so the extreme athleticism is gone.  When he signs his next contract the supporting cast will be gone.  He is a good player but he also plays above the game rather than in it.  If he doesnt win a superbowl this year or next I am not sure he will.

 

Mayfield needs a new coach.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

 

I don't think he would look much different throwing to JAGs. Indeed he didn't when that is what he was asked to do when Hill was out. 

 

Um, when Hill was out Mahomes still had Kelce and Watkins (who has trouble staying on the field, but does have more than JAG talent)

[Scott7975]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The difference is Zay Jones standing there and watching a ball get intercepted on the sideline, and this:

 

 

 

That's the exact kind of pass I was talking about.  That exact pass could happen with Allen to Zay and it would have been a pick.  People would be screaming that Josh shouldn't have made that throw... those same people will praise the throw from Mahomes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, thenorthremembers said:

Mahomes has been a product of extreme athleticism and an amazing support cast.  His ankle is messed up so the extreme athleticism is gone.  When he signs his next contract the supporting cast will be gone.  He is a good player but he also plays above the game rather than in it.  If he doesnt win a superbowl this year or next I am not sure he will.

 

Mayfield needs a new coach.

 

And a new OL

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

I have to disagree. I bad pick into double coverage yes. Plus he had more than 1 TD. Watson played a great game (not amazing.)

 

I only seen the second half but yes, he did have a good game.  I still think people would roast Allen for some  of that stuff.  See above comment.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Um, when Hill was out Mahomes still had Kelce and Watkins (who has trouble staying on the field, but does have more than JAG talent)

 

Watkins hardly stayed on the field after week 1. And yes - Kelce isn't a JAG but I was talking specifically about receivers. And Mahomes used those JAG receivers. Hardmen and Robinson had monster games. He has already demonstrated to me that he doesn't need elite guys to produce. Does having elite guys help? Yes, of course. That is why everyone wants them. 

[gjv001]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

If KC had our defense they would have gone undefeated like Zerovoltz said. 

If Allen had KC's skilled players, the Bills would be undefeated.

[JoPar_v2]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I only seen the second half but yes, he did have a good game.  I still think people would roast Allen for some  of that stuff.  See above comment.

Yeah certain people would for sure. I think the type of stuff Mahomes was trying to pull off today, rather than Watson, would get Allen killed moreso. The hero ball stuff is almost always judged retrospectively by most fans. If it works (for Mahomes, it mostly has) it’s great. When it doesn’t (for Allen, it’s been a mixed bag) the guy catches more flak. 
 

i’d rather just see Allen develop his own game and not try to emulate Watson or Mahomes. Both of the latter have shown even they are vulnerable.

[thenorthremembers]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And a new OL

Exactly.  They should have got a LT before they got another toy on offense.