Reasons to not feel so bad about Patrick Mahomes

[bmur66]

I really don’t think Mahomes is a “Buffalo kind of guy”. Josh Allen definitely is.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hmmm. I don't agree on feeling better about us going forward than the Chiefs. I like where the Bills are at, don't get me wrong, but I think when your team has THE QB of the next decade you feel great about your chances. I agree their defense isn't great defenses don't last more than 3 or 4 years maximum in the NFL. It is much quicker to retool a defense than to find a Quarterback. Proof of the pudding is you go back 3 years the Chiefs were a top 10 defense and had been consistently. They have made some bad moves... I didn't love trading Ford away to spend significantly more on Frank Clark who I have always thought it overrated. But they have a smart GM, a very experienced and capable coach and an outstanding young QB. There are not too many teams in the NFL that wouldn't swap places with Kansas City right now. 

Here is the thing...look at Manning, Brees, and Rodgers.  For how prolific they were, they only have 4 SB titles combined and only Manning has more than 1.  And in all their title years they had a good defense while the rest of their careers they struggled in the post season (or even make the post season) mainly due to bad defenses.

 

Manning has an NFL record for going one and done 9 times as a #1 seed in the playoffs.  As the most prolific offense in history, he got blown out by Seattle in SB 41-8.  Got his second SB on the back of an elite defense in 2015.

 

Rivers, Stanford, Ryan, etc have struggled to even make playoffs and SB all together.  
 

For all the love having an elite QB gets, its teams that win championships most often.  And I don’t like the way KC is being built in terms of long term success.  Questionable moves on defense, over paying risky players like Watkins and Hill, etc.  Soon Mahomes is going to break the bank too and it’s going to be hard to build a balanced Team with how much money they have in the offense and guys like Clark.  

Chiefs remind me of the D’Antoni and Nash led Phoenix Suns (Or even what the Rockets have been too last few years under D’Antoni).  In that system, Nash and that offense were prolific scorers and could run anyone off the court...until the playoffs where their Achilles heals of defense and rebounding became a bigger issue.  And despite multiple MVPs for Nash, he never won a title.

 

And I still think Allen is going to prove to be a franchise QB, so I very much like how we are managing our cap, finding value, and building a long term success plan.  

None of this is a knock on Mahomes, he’s legit and will make Chiefs perennial contenders.  But contenders aren’t always champions, just like Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Ryan, etc an attest too.  Takes more than just an elite QB to win titles in the NFL.  

Edited October 11, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Success]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is not quite true. He was a consensus 1st round pick and there were a lot of people on here who wanted him and had seen a lot of him. I say that as someone who personally was wary of his mechanics - particularly his footwoork - and had him as the 3rd QB in the class as a result and did not have a 1st round grade (thought said repeatedly he would go in the 1st). 

 

What makes this an interesting conversation is that the Bills dead man walking of a GM at the time allegedly loved Mahomes. There are good reasons the Bills didn't pick him, but the decision is one that will rightly be scrutinised for a long time to come. 

I can’t really dispute any of that - I’m just going by my own memory.  I remember thinking he would have been a fun pick, and one I would have talked myself into instantly, but risky.

 

It’s hard for me to live in the what ifs.  We could have had Rogers, Wilson, etc.  We got Allen ultimately.  All I think about now is him improving and becoming the best QB he can be, which I think can still be stellar.  And I love  the guy.  He just seems like he was born to be a Bill.

 

Your memory of it is probably more accurate, though.  Interesting about Whaley.  I was kind of a Whaley fan, but in hindsight, he was pretty all over the place strategy-wise.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

Here is the thing...look at Manning, Brees, and Rodgers.  For how prolific they were, they only have 4 SB titles combined and only Manning has more than 1.  And in all their title years they had a good defense while the rest of their careers they struggled in the post season (or even make the post season).  Manning has an NFL record for going one and done 9 times as a #1 seed in the playoffs.  As the most prolific offense in history, he got blown out by Seattle in SB 41-8.  Got his second SB on the back of an elite defense in 2015.

 

Rivers, Stanford, Ryan, etc have struggled to even make playoffs and SB all together.  
 

For all the love having an elite QB gets, its teams that win championships most often.  And I don’t like the way KC is being built in terms of long term success.  Questionable moves on defense, over paying risky players like Watkins and Hill, etc.  Soon Mahomes is going to break the bank too and it’s going to be hard to build a balanced Team with how much money they have in the offense and guys like Clark.  

Chiefs remind me of the D’Antoni and Nash led Phoenix Suns (Or even what the Rockets have been too last few years under D’Antoni).  In that system, Nash and that offense were prolific scorers and could run anyone off the court...until the playoffs where their Achilles heals of defense and rebounding became a bigger issue.  And despite multiple MVPs for Nash, he never won a title.

 

And I still think Allen is going to prove to be a franchise QB, so I very much like how we are managing our cap, finding value, and building a long term success plan.  

None of this is a knock on Mahomes, he’s legit and will make Chiefs perennial contenders.  But contenders aren’t always champions, just like Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Ryan, etc an attest too.  Takes more than just an elite QB to win titles in the NFL.  

 

It takes more than elite Quarterbacks. But in the overwhelming majority of seasons it takes an elite Quarterback. 

 

From the AFC it is even more stark the only man in the last 17 years to represent the AFC in the Superbowl that was not Brady, Manning or Ben was Joe Flacco. I will give you that Peyton his final year was only still elite between the ears as the body had broken down but even allowing for that only twice in the last 17 years has the AFC Champion not had an elite QB. 

 

The NFC has had a little more variety - this is true. But then they are 11-6 down in Superbowls in that period. And the 6 winning NFC QBs.... Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson (all future HoFers) and Nick Foles. 

 

So in 17 years we have maybe 3 exceptions (Flacco, the corpse of Peyton Manning's career and Nick Foles) who have bucked the trend. By far the most important single ingredient in being a Superbowl Champion is having a top quality QB. And the Chiefs more than any other team in the NFL have that box checked. 

 

Now having an elite QB doesn't guarantee anything.... as you say Brees and Rodgers only have 1 each and Rivers and Ryan who are the two I would say have been most consistently just below elite company have 1 appearance and no rings between them. But it is the starting point in the modern NFL. There is no question about it. Everything else is secondary to having your Quarterback in place. 

 

If the Bills do with Josh then they will be contenders, year in and year out, but I can't see an argument for them being ahead of the Chiefs on that road as we stand here today. The Chiefs stand out on their own as a franchise set up to contend for every Championship in the decade. 

[John from Riverside]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It takes more than elite Quarterbacks. But in the overwhelming majority of seasons it takes an elite Quarterback. 

 

From the AFC it is even more stark the only man in the last 17 years to represent the AFC in the Superbowl that was not Brady, Manning or Ben was Joe Flacco. I will give you that Peyton his final year was only still elite between the ears as the body had broken down but even allowing for that only twice in the last 17 years has the AFC Champion not had an elite QB. 

 

The NFC has had a little more variety - this is true. But then they are 11-6 down in Superbowls in that period. And the 6 winning NFC QBs.... Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson (all future HoFers) and Nick Foles. 

 

So in 17 years we have maybe 3 exceptions (Flacco, the corpse of Peyton Manning's career and Nick Foles) who have bucked the trend. By far the most important single ingredient in being a Superbowl Champion is having a top quality QB. And the Chiefs more than any other team in the NFL have that box checked. 

 

Now having an elite QB doesn't guarantee anything.... as you say Brees and Rodgers only have 1 each and Rivers and Ryan who are the two I would say have been most consistently just below elite company have 1 appearance and no rings between them. But it is the starting point in the modern NFL. There is no question about it. Everything else is secondary to having your Quarterback in place. 

 

If the Bills do with Josh then they will be contenders, year in and year out, but I can't see an argument for them being ahead of the Chiefs on that road as we stand here today. The Chiefs stand out on their own as a franchise set up to contend for every Championship in the decade. 

I dont think our offense is done being biult yet.....one more draft

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

4 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ahh the eternal regrets of a Bills fan.  Waiting for someone to  mention how we are still reeling from not picking up Buffalo Native Gronk in the 2nd or Brady in the 5th.

Torrell Troupe! BOOM!! HOF DT what a pick.  TJ Graham was another classic, especially when we leaked how much we liked Russel Wilson and figured he'd drop to the 4th.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I dont think our offense is done being biult yet.....one more draft

 

Nor do I. But all of it is secondary to Josh being the guy. 

[artmalibu]

Pat is awesome no question!!!!

 

But how good would he be if he played for buffalo last year?

 

The year before Alex Smith looked good taking them to the playoffs.....

[K-9]

4 hours ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

I quit thinking about Mahomes after we didn't draft him, and quite frankly I didn't think about him that much beforehand. Neither did most people or he would've been a consensus #1.

Never gave it moment’s thought. All the handwringing over something we never had always struck me as childish.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Nor do I. But all of it is secondary to Josh being the guy. 

Sure it is....but you can see just how much of it is the "team"

 

Josh is the most important spoke in the wheel....but lets be honest...guys like Smoke and Beasely are not "superstar" players...they are solid veteran guys....not JAGs...but not elite

The pass protection of the team is not that great yet

Gore and Singletary have been pretty good

 

So what you see from last year to this is a uptick in completion percentage from Josh Allen....less dropped passes....more win

 

You give Josh Allen a big, fast, reliable hands WR target that can separate against top DB's......better pass protection.....and more time with young guys like Dawson Knox and watch him continue to get better

[GunnerBill]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Sure it is....but you can see just how much of it is the "team"

 

Josh is the most important spoke in the wheel....but lets be honest...guys like Smoke and Beasely are not "superstar" players...they are solid veteran guys....not JAGs...but not elite

The pass protection of the team is not that great yet

Gore and Singletary have been pretty good

 

So what you see from last year to this is a uptick in completion percentage from Josh Allen....less dropped passes....more win

 

You give Josh Allen a big, fast, reliable hands WR target that can separate against top DB's......better pass protection.....and more time with young guys like Dawson Knox and watch him continue to get better

 

For sure. That still doesn't justify feeling better about the Bills chances of sustainable success than those of the Chiefs at this precise moment in time. 

[Utah John]

What would NOT have happened if Mahomes was drafted by the Bills?

 

He would NOT have had the chance to sit his entire rookie year and watch a very skilled QB at work, teaching him the game.

He would NOT have had the best supporting cast of O players in the league.

He would NOT have been coached by Andy Reid.

 

If he'd come to Buffalo, there's every chance he'd be cut by now as a draft bust who couldn't make a broken down jalopy win the Indy 500.  

 

McBeane understood all this, I think, and did what they though best over a period of years.  They now have a good young QB in the second year of his rookie contract, instead of the third.  The window to win with a young QB is short.  Once they can get what the market will bear, the entire roster's salary situation goes to hell.  A couple of really good starters will be traded, a lot of quality depth players won't be retained, a lot more rookies will take over.  A solid, balanced team struggles to keep the wheels from falling off.  

 

The goal is not to have the MVP on your team.  The goal is to have the Lombardi trophy in your city.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, thronethinker said:

Does anyone here really think Mahomes would have won the MVP if he played in Buffalo in 2018? I am not trying to take away from Mahomes, I am just saying he would not be nearly as good on the Bills in 2018 as he was on the Chiefs. I bet Josh Allen would be much better on the 2018 Chiefs as well. Its a very good place to be for a young QB with a good arm. 

 

Yes.  The team and coaching situation Mahomes was drafted into, was about as far away from the team and coaching situation Josh Allen was drafted into as one can get.

4 hours ago, HOUSE said:

I climbed a mountain and found inner peace

 

8

 

 

But did you turn around? 

And could you see your reflection in the snow covered hills?

 

[DCbillsfan]

5 hours ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

I quit thinking about Mahomes after we didn't draft him, and quite frankly I didn't think about him that much beforehand. Neither did most people or he would've been a consensus #1.

This.  I focus on who we pick.  Nothing else.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, bmur66 said:

I really don’t think Mahomes is a “Buffalo kind of guy”. Josh Allen definitely is.

 

Now That, if you'll pardon me saying, sounds like "Sour Grapes".

 

I mean, it's reasonable to think we can't really compare Mahomes to Allen at present - the team and coaching situations they were drafted into were that divergent

But "Not a Buffalo kind of guy" - seriously?  Are we that narrow in our definition?

 

 

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, bmur66 said:

I really don’t think Mahomes is a “Buffalo kind of guy”. Josh Allen definitely is.

what does this even mean?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Context is everything.  Andy Reid makes QB's look good.  Mahomes is great and he has taken Reid offense to a new level. But Reid produced yards and points with Alex Smith too.

You think Rick Denison would get 4500 yards passing and 40 TDs from Mahomes?

[TAinLack.]

7 hours ago, Rigotz said:

When Pat Mahomes was lighting the world on fire last year, I found myself extremely aggravated that we didn't pick him at #10 in the 2017 NFL draft.

This year, I've found peace with the idea that he's not on our team and here are the top 10 reasons why:

 

1. With the first pick in the 2017 draft, the Cleveland Browns (who needed a QB) didn't take Mahomes.

2. With the second pick in the draft, the Chicago Bears TRADED UP to take Mitch Trubisky.

3. With the fourth pick in the draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars, who needed a QB, took Leonard Fournette.

4. With the fifth pick in the draft, the Tennessee Titans stuck with Marcus Mariotta and took Corey Davis instead.

5. With the sixth pick in the draft, the Jets (lol), who needed a QB, took Jamal Adams

6. With the 7th pick in the draft, the Chargers took Mike Williams instead of an heir to Phil Rivers.

7. With the 9th pick in the draft, the Bengals picked John Ross instead of Patrick Mahomes.

8. All of these same teams ALSO passed on Deshaun Watson.

9. Yes, we traded down and didn't get Mahomes, but we DID get Tre White and a future first round pick.

10. That future first round pick (combined with others) turned into Josh Allen, who at the very least has more upside at QB than anyone we've had in a long time.

 

Hope this makes you all feel a little better as well.

With any pick in the 2017 draft, Mahomes would not have survived a half of season here with our offensive line and weapons at receiver!!!

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, bmur66 said:

I really don’t think Mahomes is a “Buffalo kind of guy”. Josh Allen definitely is.

This could DEFINITELY be construed as something I'd prefer not to see.

 

 Can you elaborate?

[nedboy7]

Are you suggesting Mahomes is not Buffalo material cause he is so good we wouldn’t know how to handle his awesomeness since we are used to sub par QB play?  Yes I agree.