Patriotism includes shutting up at times

[AKC]

So basically, we should avoid any thoughts or actions contrary to the current administration's stance on today's most important international issue.  Diversity of opinion should be squashed down at all costs.  I'm sure there would be no radical fringe then!

 

Do you really think the average kid who's thinking about joining the military is looking at these crazy wackos on both sides and saying to himself "Gee, I was gonna join up, but these freaks have convinced me otherwise!  I think I'll join them instead and screw America over!"  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fear of injury and death.

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We should always as a free country challenge our intellect and consider as many forms of action as we did. In fact, in this action that's exactly what was done- the country had a long and considered discussion after which our congress voted OVERWHELMINGLY IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION to enter Iraq. At that moment Americans had the choice to be Patriotic and do everything possible to make the life of our fighting forces as protected as possible. Another choice was to continue debating the issue already decided upon by our elected officials. Choosing #2 guaranteed consequences that would negatively effect our fighting forces, and the proof is overwhelming today that that is exactly what has happened.

 

Now in their embarrasment those responsible choose to hide behind lies like "I supported the troops but not the war". It's shameful, it's unpatriotic, but unfortunately for us all it's not at all unAmerican. During WWII dissenters for the most part held their toungues, but our culture has changed now to the point where the selfishness of political aspirations have become the styrofoam foundation upon which unpatriotic activities are reasoned.

 

To your second question- do I believe this has an effect on recruiting? All I can say if you don't recognize that it has negatively affected recruiting, especially in our big Metropolises WHICH ARE THE TARGETS OF TERRORISM, I will concede that I would not be blessed with ability to explain the shamefully and painfully obvious to you.

[Campy]

We should always as a free country challenge our intellect and consider as many forms of action as we did. In fact, in this action that's exactly what was done- the country had a long and considered discussion after which our congress voted OVERWHELMINGLY IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION to enter Iraq. At that moment Americans had the choice to be Patriotic and do everything possible to make the life of our fighting forces as protected as possible.

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IMO, politicians do a lot of things in bipartisan fashion that people don't agree with, but it doesn't make it right. Secondly, IMO Congress, the UN, and the world was lied to about the casus belli.

 

Now in their embarrasment those responsible choose to hide behind lies like "I supported the troops but not the war". It's shameful, it's unpatriotic, but unfortunately for us all it's not at all unAmerican.

I'd like to know how my disagreeing with the choice to invade Iraq is in anyway putting our soldiers at greater risk. As I said above, I have friends in harms way, and I certainly wouldn't want them to be harmed - especially by my actions.

 

And again, given that I disagreed with the choice to invade Iraq, and given that I send care packages, emails, and letters to my friends over there, exactly how am I behaving in "shameful" or "unpatriotic" manner.

 

Forgive me for saying this, but the kind of "patriotism" you're espousing leads to more harm than good. I had an Uncle in Germany (Wolfgang Tischendorf) who practiced that kind of "patriotism."

 

And lastly, opposition to WWII was low because after Japan attacked, we declared war on them. We only declared war on Germany after they declared war on us. Had we declared war on Japan and Canada (who had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor), rest assured there would have been pretty strong opposition.

[AKC]

I'd like to know how my disagreeing with the choice to invade Iraq is in anyway putting our soldiers at greater risk.  As I said above, I have friends in harms way, and I certainly wouldn't want them to be harmed - especially by my actions.

 

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You seem bright enough to grasp this, I'll give it one more shot-

 

If, as you've alluded to, you've publicly opposed the war and been involved in anti-war activity you are part of the movement that has negatively impacted our military's recruitment of soldiers. When our recruiting is degraded by people like you, those who HAVE chosen to fight either are placed under greater strain to make up for less qualified recruits being accepted and unmet levels of recruitment. This makes the mission longer and requires more loss of lives. It's the simplest of concepts. Regardless of any guilt you suffer over your family's Nazi past you should make the most of your second chance in this country by recognizing your responsibility to the United States. I'd recomend you consider the awful thing you've gotten yourself into (much like your uncle) by putting a greater burden on our troops and immediately cease the activities that harm our troops.

[Campy]

You seem bright enough to grasp this, I'll give it one more shot-

 

If, as you've alluded to, you've publicly opposed the war and been involved in anti-war activity you are part of the movement that has negativelyimpacted recruitment of soldiers. When our recruiting is degrraded by people like you those who HAVE chosen to fight either are placed under greater strain to make up for less qualified recruits being accepted and unmet levels of recruits. This makes the mission longer and requires more loss of lives. It's the simplest of concepts. Regardless of any guilt you suffer over your family's Naxi past you should never allow it to intefere with recognizing your responsibility to the United States. You should instead consider the awful thing you've done by putting a greater burden on our troops and immediately cease the activities that harm our troops.

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Thanks for the compliment, I like to think I'm of no less than average intelligence too! Just to make sure I get what you're saying, I'm going to bounce a couple of questions off of you:

 

I've only shared my opinion regarding the choice to invade Iraq with good friends and here on PPP. How many, if any, soldiers' deaths are my fault?

 

If holding an anti-war banner in Chicago has an adverse effect on recruiting, what role, if any, does the whole "getting shot at part" have in turning the kids off to joining the military?

 

I didn't have any Nazis party members in my family, but thank you for your concern all the same. What I did have in my family were people who were threatened with death for such "treasonous" activities as voicing opposition to their federal government's policies, so they kept their mouth shut. Isn't that fairly similar to the behavior you envision in an American patriot?

 

I'll let you have the last word, I just wanted to make sure I understood you.

[AKC]

I've only shared my opinion regarding the choice to invade Iraq with good friends and hear on PPP.  How many, if any, soldiers' deaths are my fault?

 

If holding an anti-war banner in Chicago has an adverse effect on recruiting, what role, if any, does the whole "getting shot at part" have in turning the kids off to joining the military?

 

I didn't have any Nazis party members in my family, but thank you for your concern all the same.  What I did have in my family were people who were threatened with death for such "treasonous" activities as voicing opposition to their federal government's policies, so they kept their mouth shut.  Isn't that fairly similar to the behavior you envision in an American patriot?

 

I'll let you have the last word, I just wanted to make sure I understood you.

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Consistent with my position throughout the string and under the circumstances you've listed in this post, you've really done nothing that is hurting our mission except perhaps offering encouragment to others considering unpatriotic acts.

 

How dare you compare the gutless actions of Antiwar Protestors to the Courage and Honor of a fallen soldier. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Patriotism doesn't necessarily include the ability to discern between good and evil. Your comparison of the United States to Nazi Germany is another shameless and ignorant comment on your part. On the other hand anyone who spent time in Dachau would find the similarities to Hussein's Iraq quite consistent. Yes, your message is clear- shame on America for liberating 70% of the people of Iraq from the Hitler-like Hussien. You've obviously learned nothing from your family history which has led to your utter failure to appreciate the United States or it's right to defend itself against a regional threat. What's clear is you have it too good, you live in the greatest nation on this planet and render your distaste for it, going so far as to compare it to one of the most ghastly in history. One thing that is inarguable is that were we able to drop you off for a few weeks in Nazi Germany your apprecation for our democracy would immediately benefit.

[UConn James]

Ahh, yes. The Sound of Silence. It's so great for when your half is in office. I think it was Dante who wrote that the hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who in a time of crisis remain neutral and say nothing.

 

Word to the wise, it's not people who say the war was the wrong choice that's dragging enlistment down. Kids who are serious about it will not be deterred by a protestor. And if they are, I doubt they'd make it thru boot camp. There's a war on and young people don't exactly want to be fighting a war b/c of "WMD intent" and whatever the next excuse will be for going in to Syria, Iran, etc. Yes, lies have reverberation. There's a reason why there was little military recruiting advertising in the NCAA Tournament this year after it's long been heavy on it b/c so many enlistment-age people watch it. It's not worth the expenditure b/c w/ the war, whoever's serious will enlist and those who aren't, won't. If declining enlistment rates were such a threat, that should have been considered.

 

I write this as my brother's quasi-fiance is going to be dropping her son off for the weekend as she and my bro have drill.

[Whiskey Dick]

It's become perfectly clear that the best thing that could happen for the courageous Americans serving in the Iraq War is to have the best and brightest of our young people joining them to close this chapter in the most efficient manner possible. Unfortunately, and due directly to the lack of Patriotism excercised by many in the anti-war crowd, instead of the best of our youth considering the military as an honorable endeavor many instead view it as a jaded choice. Today, when the best among us are achieving their daily goals in Iraq, the gutless jellyfish who insisted on "excercising their right to rebel" have caused recruiting goals to go into the red.

 

Patriotism IS NOT the excercise of our rights, it instead is the ability to recognize WHEN the exercise of our rights is appropriate.

 

There has been much talk in politics the past few years about "admitting being wrong". Oddly it is those who most fervently demanded contrition of political figures who have gone silent on admitting that their actions hurt, and continue to hurt our country. Today needless strains on the manpower necessary to complete the task in Iraq are inarguably the result of the lack of good judgement by the vocal opponents of the war. There is no shame in being absolutely wrong and admitting it, there is eternal shame for handicapping our fighting forces and refusing to at the very least cease the unpatriotic attacks that continue to damage our country.

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It's statements such as yours that make me pull out my "Dissent is Patriotic" shirt and wear it proudly.

[Gene Frenkle]

Patriotism doesn't necessarily include the ability to discern between good and evil. Your comparison of the United States to Nazi Germany is another shameless and ignorant comment on your part. On the other hand anyone who spent time in Dachau would find the similarities to Hussein's Iraq quite consistent. Yes, your message is clear- shame on America for liberating 70% of the people of Iraq from the Hitler-like Hussien. You've obviously learned nothing from your family history which has led to your utter failure to appreciate the United States or it's right to defend itself against a regional threat. What's clear is you have it too good, you live in the greatest nation on this planet and render your distaste for it, going so far as to compare it to one of the most ghastly in history. One thing that is inarguable is that were we able to drop you off for a few weeks in Nazi Germany your apprecation for our democracy would immediately benefit.

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You are an evil, unpatriotic heathen because you don't agree with the war. So what if you didn't actually DO anything to protest the war other than send care packages to the troops and express your displeasure with the war on a message board? Communist! Wait till McCarthy hears of this! Didn't you learn anything from the Nazis???

 

Even you cannot possibly believe the crap in this post.

[/dev/null]

You are an evil, unpatriotic heathen because you don't agree with the war.  So what if you didn't actually DO anything to protest the war other than send care packages to the troops and express your displeasure with the war on a message board?  Communist!  Wait till McCarthy hears of this!  Didn't you learn anything from the Nazis???

 

Even you cannot possibly believe the crap in this post.

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sounds like he needs more cowbell

[AKC]

Didn't you learn anything from the Nazis???

 

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I'd say the developing pattern here suggests the guilt level of the antiwar losers is so high that they are prone to comparing everyone with a different viewpoint a "Nazi".

 

Bravo!

[AKC]

Ahh, yes. The Sound of Silence. It's so great for when your half is in office.

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Denying history does little to excuse your position. Fortunately you have family who can help you to grasp the fact that being unpatriotic in wartime is exclusively a phenomenon of the left. As a centrist myself your false accusations against your political opponents are amusing, you might not find rightwingers so indifferent about those types of lies though.

[AKC]

It's statements such as yours that make me pull out my "Dissent is Patriotic" shirt and wear it proudly.

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If you were to don that prior to the near unanimous decison by Congress to go to war it could be true, once action begins you become Just Another Unpatriotic American. Now there's a shirt you could wear AND be accurate!

[Whiskey Dick]

If you were to don that prior to the near unanimous decison by Congress to go to war it could be true, once action begins you become Just Another Unpatriotic American. Now there's a shirt you could wear AND be accurate!

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Then one could assume, using your logic, that Jimmy Carter would be considered "Just Another Unpatriotic American".

 

 

http://www.progressive.org/blogs05/ap040605.php

[AKC]

Then one could assume, using your logic, that Jimmy Carter would be considered "Just Another Unpatriotic American".

http://www.progressive.org/blogs05/ap040605.php

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I hate to trample on your Presidential icon as he and I served in the same division of the Nuclear Navy, but I have to tell you Jimmy continues even today to make questionable decisions. You can be forgiven for not realizing this if you're too young to have been around for his Presidency ;-)

[Dan Gross]

So I suppose then that the Pope dying is a good thing for the American war efforts? After all, he was clearly against the Iraq War, and Catholics who may have considered enlisting would probably be more influenced by the Holy Father than some hippy freak marching in the streets.

 

And just so that I have it straight: you are saying that while our soldiers are out there trying to make Iraq more like America, where people have the right to Free Speech, America should be more like Saddam-era Iraq? 'Kay...

 

Isn't a recruit that is so shakey in his commitment that he could be dissuaded by seeing someone with an anti-War picket sign the type of person that would have been weeded out long before he served any active duty? If not, would that be the kind of person you'd want watching your back?

[Pete]

AKC- I agree with alot that you are saying but I dont buy into all of it. We must always support our troops! I think 99% of us agree on that. But we do not need to agree with every war our goverment picks. If the war is wrong and we voice it protects our soldiers. To dissent is patriotic. Its what ended the Vietnam war. Dissent is very American and very powerful. I wish people dissented towards Goverment abuses. For the record I voted for President Bush and can argue for why we are in Iraq now. But to dissent is freedom- I love Freedom!

[AKC]

So I suppose then that the Pope dying is a good thing for the American war efforts?  After all, he was clearly against the Iraq War, and Catholics who may have considered enlisting would probably be more influenced by the Holy Father than some hippy freak marching in the streets. 

 

And just so that I have it straight: you are saying that while our soldiers are out there trying to make Iraq more like America, where people have the right to Free Speech, America should be more like Saddam-era Iraq?  'Kay...

 

Isn't a recruit that is so shakey in his commitment that he could be dissuaded by seeing someone with an anti-War picket sign the type of person that would have been weeded out long before he served any active duty?  If not, would that be the kind of person you'd want watching your back?

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The Pope's not American- he should say anything he wants at any time he wants to say it.

 

Your presumption about the influence of the Anti-war movement is completely contradicted by the facts regarding recruiting- it's rural states where dissent is minimal where the largest percentage of recruits come from while the mega-cites (which are the targets of the terrorists) send pitiful percentages of soldiers by comparison. Some call it enlightenment, I call it cowardice. To let other's children protect your liberal cities is a sickness in our society. It stems from a lack of belief, among some even a hatred of America that is nurtured in those same liberal cities IMO.

[AKC]

AKC- I agree with alot that you are saying but I dont buy into all of it.  We must always support our troops!  I think 99% of us agree on that.  But we do not need to agree with every war our goverment picks.  If the war is wrong and we voice it protects our soldiers.  To dissent is patriotic.  Its what ended the Vietnam war.  Dissent is very American and very powerful.  I wish people dissented towards Goverment abuses.  For the record I voted for President Bush and can argue for why we are in Iraq now.  But to dissent is freedom- I love Freedom!

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There's no comparison between the war Kennedy secretly dragged us into with absolutely no public discourse and no Congressional consideration. Vietnam was the most dishonest action our governemnt could have brought upon us and it forced the public discourse to take place after we were commited.

 

Iraq is exactly the opposite- a long public discourse preceded nearly every member of our COngress to say "Let's Roll". At that moment the only way to support the troops was to cease any public discourse dissenting from the action that could affect those who might consider contributing to the mission.

 

Just as awful is that every one of these brave kids will return to an America where many in their age group will have adopted the position of the gutless cowards who lead the antwi-war movements and consequently the legacy of our brave and honorable heroes will be a life-long undercurrent of snide disgust from many of their peers. It's a horrible thing- instead of a national heros welcome it will only be those who truly and honestly "support the troops" who will offer them the honor they deserve. Every time some jackass in a bar says to one of our returning heroes "Yeah, you were probably in Abu Ghraib" it will be the voice of the gutless who have protested the war that will bear the full responsibility. I'm ashamed as a vet, as an American and as a human being.

[Whiskey Dick]

There's no comparison between the war Kennedy secretly dragged us into with absolutely no public discourse and no Congressional consideration. Vietnam was the most dishonest action our governemnt could have brought upon us and it forced the public discourse to take place after we were commited.

 

Iraq is exactly the opposite- a long public discourse preceded nearly every member of our COngress to say "Let's Roll". At that moment the only way to support the troops was to cease any public discourse dissenting from the action that could affect those who might consider contributing to the mission.

 

Just as awful is that every one of these brave kids will return to an America where many in their age group will have adopted the position of the gutless cowards who lead the antwi-war movements and consequently the legacy of our brave and honorable heroes will be a life-long undercurrent of snide disgust from many of their peers. It's a horrible thing- instead of a national heros welcome it will only be those who truly and honestly "support the troops" who will offer them the honor they deserve. Every time some jackass in a bar says to one of our returning heroes "Yeah, you were probably in Abu Ghraib" it will be the voice of the gutless who have protested the war that will bear the full responsibility. I'm ashamed as a vet, as an American and as a human being.

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Hey kiddies! Can you say DRAFT?

 

Well there's one group that isn't influenced by those darned hippies, but unfortunately can't serve. What do you tell these people?

 

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../w125234D98.DTL

[AKC]

Hey kiddies! Can you say DRAFT?

 

Well there's one group that isn't influenced by those darned hippies, but unfortunately can't serve. What do you tell these people?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../w125234D98.DTL

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I'd be suprised if you ever served in the armed forces since you fail to realize the major difficulty of supporting an openly gay person in your own division. However "enlightened" you belive yourself to be, the miltary is not about "you". Your ability to function at the highest level requires a submission to the overall team. While some of us would be able to function with an alternative lifestyle soldier in the mix, you betray the upbringing of a large number of those who do have the courage to join the military who come from the outposts of America, form small towns in the South and Midwest. You'd in your ignorance require that these kids be FORCED to shower and bunk literally right next to an openly gay person simply to forward your political biases. You'd go so far as to blame them and their parents reliance on religion, etc., for being ignorant. But the reality is that these elements can seriously upset the ability of a fighting unit to function at its peak. You say YOU'D be OK with it yet you won't even sign up to serve! Hypocrisy is rampant in the weakest of our society!