Scott7975 Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 13 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: I think that shows it well that he was trying to hit Yelson and if anything it would have been incomplete if not a first down catch. It was also 3rd and 6. That was not at all an instance of hero ball. God this angle makes me scratch my head even more wondering why Yeldon stopped.
Lurker Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: I don't think it was an ill advised pass. Yikes! It looks worse to me from this angle than it did during the broadcast. Allen absolutely can not make that throw. He had no eye contact with Beasley and had to sling it sidearm around the rushing defender to get the ball out. Bad, bad decision. It also looks like Knox was actually open earlier in the sequence (12 second mark) and would have been a much easier throw to make... Edited October 8, 2019 by Lurker 1
GG Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: I think that shows it well that he was trying to hit Yelson and if anything it would have been incomplete if not a first down catch. It was also 3rd and 6. That was not at all an instance of hero ball. I think it's obvious that Allen was going to Yeldon but I have a feeling Yeldon thought the pass was goin to Beasley and that's why he stopped. 2 1 1
Foxx Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: I added the All 22 view of the interception below. I still believe he is throwing to Yeldon. When he first takes the snap he first looks to Beasley and then over to Yeldon. He then scrambles to avoid a sack, looks to Beasley again and then to Yeldon. When the ball leaves Allen's hand, the DB is almost directly behind Yeldon. If Yeldon continues running, he almost certainly would have stayed in front of the DB and be in position to make the catch. I will change my mind and put the blame on neither. As I said above in another post, you have WRs trying to adjust to a QB trying to evade a sack, and a QB trying to react to the WR's adjustments. Not to mention, it involved a QB and 3 WRs who have played 5 total NFL games together. I don't think it was an ill advised pass. Allen had stopped and set up. He was interpreting the adjustment of his WR and put the ball where he thought that WR would be. hey, thanks for remembering the conversation and coming back to it with the All 22, much appreciated. it is really hard to say what the thought process was here. just to opine a bit on the other side of yours for a bit.... Beasers guy drops him at roughly the :17 second mark whereby Beaser starts to turn downfield . with Knox coming across the field in the same area as Bease, dragging his defender with him. we can also see that Josh is escaping the pocket to his left and is looking down field to see what i have just described. @ roughly the :18 mark we can see that Josh is quite possibly looking towards Duke underneath as Beaser's guy is caught in no man's land trying to contain Josh from breaking of a nice scramble. @roughly the :22 mark we can see Josh begin to settle into a passing stance while Knoxs guy (26) is releasing Knox to possibly play Beaser. this tells me that #26 was watching Allen's eyes here and body language @ roughly the :23 mark #58 is beginning to extend his arm upwards in anticipation of Josh throwing the ball. also at this point, it appears that #26 is committed to covering Beaser. i don't know that Josh even sees Yeldon at this point as his head has not turned in that direction since he left the pocket. @ roughly the :24 mark Josh pumps the ball and pulls it back as we just see Yeldon come into the frame and this is where i think Josh may have seen Yeldon, tough to really tell but T.J. has better separation from his guy than does Beaser at that point. as i said, it is hard to say just where josh is looking but i do believe his helmet is closer to facing towards Beaser than Yeldon when he begins to unload the ball. however, with the trajectory of the ball from this angle, there can be no doubt that had Yeldon continued running, he was the intended target. Beaser wasn't moving whenJosh wound up so if he was going to him, it would have been an errant throw. i started off with the intention of trying to defend my observation that you quoted but have since talked myself out of it with the analysis of it above and watching it frame by frame. it may have been that he wanted to throw it to Beaser but saw Yeldon at the last minute and threw it somewhere between the two as a result. as i think we have both said, it is hard to know exactly what the thought process was here. i also think anyone who watches this clip has to admit that it wasn't a bad throw, Yeldon had to keep moving. 1 2
billsfan1959 Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lurker said: Yikes! It looks worse to me from this angle than it did during the broadcast. Allen absolutely can not make that throw. He had no eye contact with Beasley and had to sling it sidearm around the rushing defender to get the ball out. Bad, bad decision. It also looks like Lee Smith was actually open earlier in the sequence (12 second mark) and would have been a much easier throw to make... I get where you are coming from; however, I have to disagree. I dobn't think he was throwing to Beasley - I think he was throwing to Yeldon and absolutely had eye contact with him. If you pause the video just as the ball is coming out of Allen's hand, you will see Yeldon is still moving across the field and the DB is behind him. Yeldon stops. The DB continues and makes the interception. If the DB could continue and make the interception, then I have to believe Yeldon coyuld have continued and made the catch. I absolutely do not see anything wrong with making this throw. 1
Lurker Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Just now, billsfan1959 said: I get where you are coming from; however, I have to disagree. I dobn't think he was throwing to Beasley - I think he was throwing to Yeldon and absolutely had eye contact with him. If you pause the video just as the ball is coming out of Allen's hand, you will see Yeldon is still moving across the field and the DB is behind him. Yeldon stops. The DB continues and makes the interception. If the DB could continue and make the interception, then I have to believe Yeldon coyuld have continued and made the catch. I absolutely do not see anything wrong with making this throw. Yes, I saw Yeldon stop. Didn't like that he did that, but that's the thing Josh has to understand as well. Throwing sidearm, into the middle of the field, on a busted play where the receivers are freelancing and he has to guess what they're going to do? That's a high risk/low success rate play at best. Poor decision, IMO... 1
billsfan1959 Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Foxx said: hey, thanks for remembering the conversation and coming back to it with the All 22, much appreciated. it is really hard to say what the thought process was here. just to opine a bit on the other side of yours for a bit.... Beasers guy drops him at roughly the :17 second mark whereby Beaser starts to turn downfield . with Knox coming across the field in the same area as Bease, dragging his defender with him. we can also see that Josh is escaping the pocket to his left and is looking down field to see what i have just described. @ roughly the :18 mark we can see that Josh is quite possibly looking towards Duke underneath as Beaser's guy is caught in no man's land trying to contain Josh from breaking of a nice scramble. @roughly the :22 mark we can see Josh begin to settle into a passing stance while Knoxs guy (26) is releasing Knox to possibly play Beaser. this tells me that #26 was watching Allen's eyes here and body language @ roughly the :23 mark #58 is beginning to extend his arm upwards in anticipation of Josh throwing the ball. also at this point, it appears that #26 is committed to covering Beaser. i don't know that Josh even sees Yeldon at this point as his head has not turned in that direction since he left the pocket. @ roughly the :24 mark Josh pumps the ball and pulls it back as we just see Yeldon come into the frame and this is where i think Josh may have seen Yeldon, tough to really tell but T.J. has better separation from his guy than does Beaser at that point. as i said, it is hard to say just where josh is looking but i do believe his helmet is closer to facing towards Beaser than Yeldon when he begins to unload the ball. however, with the trajectory of the ball from this angle, there can be no doubt that had Yeldon continued running, he was the intended target. Beaser wasn't moving whenJosh wound up so if he was going to him, it would have been an errant throw. i started off with the intention of trying to defend my observation that you quoted but have since talked myself out of it with the analysis of it above and watching it frame by frame. it may have been that he wanted to throw it to Beaser but saw Yeldon at the last minute and threw it somewhere between the two as a result. as i think we have both said, it is hard to know exactly what the thought process was here. i also think anyone who watches this clip has to admit that it wasn't a bad throw, Yeldon had to keep moving. I appreciate your analysis and I wish this is the type of discussion we had more of on this site. I'm not sure there is any right or wrong on this play either from the perspective of the players themselves or our perspectives, as fans, in trying to assess what happened.That's the fascinating aspect of plays with so many variables involved. Thanks! 1 1
Boatdrinks Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) On 10/7/2019 at 11:07 AM, Charles Romes said: Agree - the D’s play is preventing a lot of questions from being asked. I like Allen and still think and hope he can become a true franchise quarterback. He is not there yet, and as much as we all want him to get there, that day may never come. I would rather pursue a course where we can move on from him quickly if we have to, rather than move on after 5 years like the Titans will have to do with Mariota, or the Dolphins did with Tannehill. A 1st round NFL QB is going to get a minimum of 3 years and possibly more unless they are a flat out flop. Teams aren’t going to move on if they’re winning games while a QB is developing. I’ll agree that I saw enough out of Tannehill / Mariota to be ok with moving on without picking up the 5th year option. Edited October 8, 2019 by Boatdrinks 1
GG Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Foxx said: hey, thanks for remembering the conversation and coming back to it with the All 22, much appreciated. it is really hard to say what the thought process was here. just to opine a bit on the other side of yours for a bit.... Beasers guy drops him at roughly the :17 second mark whereby Beaser starts to turn downfield . with Knox coming across the field in the same area as Bease, dragging his defender with him. we can also see that Josh is escaping the pocket to his left and is looking down field to see what i have just described. @ roughly the :18 mark we can see that Josh is quite possibly looking towards Duke underneath as Beaser's guy is caught in no man's land trying to contain Josh from breaking of a nice scramble. @roughly the :22 mark we can see Josh begin to settle into a passing stance while Knoxs guy (26) is releasing Knox to possibly play Beaser. this tells me that #26 was watching Allen's eyes here and body language @ roughly the :23 mark #58 is beginning to extend his arm upwards in anticipation of Josh throwing the ball. also at this point, it appears that #26 is committed to covering Beaser. i don't know that Josh even sees Yeldon at this point as his head has not turned in that direction since he left the pocket. @ roughly the :24 mark Josh pumps the ball and pulls it back as we just see Yeldon come into the frame and this is where i think Josh may have seen Yeldon, tough to really tell but T.J. has better separation from his guy than does Beaser at that point. as i said, it is hard to say just where josh is looking but i do believe his helmet is closer to facing towards Beaser than Yeldon when he begins to unload the ball. however, with the trajectory of the ball from this angle, there can be no doubt that had Yeldon continued running, he was the intended target. Beaser wasn't moving whenJosh wound up so if he was going to him, it would have been an errant throw. i started off with the intention of trying to defend my observation that you quoted but have since talked myself out of it with the analysis of it above and watching it frame by frame. it may have been that he wanted to throw it to Beaser but saw Yeldon at the last minute and threw it somewhere between the two as a result. as i think we have both said, it is hard to know exactly what the thought process was here. i also think anyone who watches this clip has to admit that it wasn't a bad throw, Yeldon had to keep moving. I posted this in another thread that had the All22. My bigger issue is the indecision prior to the INT. He had Beasley and Knox open. He needs to make those throws to progress as a QB. 1
Kelly the Dog Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, Lurker said: Yikes! It looks worse to me from this angle than it did during the broadcast. Allen absolutely can not make that throw. He had no eye contact with Beasley and had to sling it sidearm around the rushing defender to get the ball out. Bad, bad decision. It also looks like Knox was actually open earlier in the sequence (12 second mark) and would have been a much easier throw to make... Watch it as Josh is throwing to Yeldon not Beasley. 7 minutes ago, Lurker said: Yes, I saw Yeldon stop. Didn't like that he did that, but that's the thing Josh has to understand as well. Throwing sidearm, into the middle of the field, on a busted play where the receivers are freelancing and he has to guess what they're going to do? That's a high risk/low success rate play at best. Poor decision, IMO... You would never assume a player is going to stop as he is running across the field to be in your sightline. Why would any QB assume on that particular play that Yeldon would suddenly stop? 1 1
Foxx Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: I appreciate your analysis and I wish this is the type of discussion we had more of on this site. I'm not sure there is any right or wrong on this play either from the perspective of the players themselves or our perspectives, as fans, in trying to assess what happened.That's the fascinating aspect of plays with so many variables involved. Thanks! it is organized chaos out there. that it doesn't happen more regularly is a testament to the brilliant minds that organize, coach, strategize, orchestrate and play this marvelous game. 7 minutes ago, GG said: I posted this in another thread that had the All22. My bigger issue is the indecision prior to the INT. He had Beasley and Knox open. He needs to make those throws to progress as a QB. i believe you are referring to the part where he may have been throwing to Beaser and saw Yeldon at the last minute. agreed, he should have hit Dawson at the top of his drop, he would have had a first down. Edited October 8, 2019 by Foxx 1
Kelly the Dog Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, GG said: I think it's obvious that Allen was going to Yeldon but I have a feeling Yeldon thought the pass was goin to Beasley and that's why he stopped. Dumb-de-dumb-dumb. 1
GG Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Foxx said: it is organized chaos out there. that it doesn't happen more regularly is a testament to the brilliant minds that organize, coach, strategize, orchestrate and play this marvelous game. i believe you are referring to the part where he may have been throwing to Beaser and saw Yeldon at the last minute. agreed, he should have hit Dawson at the top of his drop, he would have had a first down. No, earlier in the play, as soon as he looks off his first read. He has both Beasley and Knox open. Both would be tight throws, but throws that an NFL QB should make. 1
Warcodered Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 I think the throw itself kind of came down to a combination of miscommunication/cluster *****. Allen sees Yeldon has separation and throws toward where he thinks he will be but doesn't take into account that Yeldon sees a WR/DB traffic jam on the 45 yard line. Yeldon I'd guess either thinks it's going to someone else or just misses the beat where Allen throws it and is already mentally slowing up to avoid getting into the area with everyone else.
Nextmanup Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 18 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: A 1st round NFL QB is going to get a minimum of 3 years and possibly more unless they are a flat out flop. Teams are going to move on if they’re winning games while a QB is developing. I’ll agree that I saw enough out of Tannehill / Mariota to be ok with moving on without picking up the 5th year option. EJ Manuel got 14 games before it was determined he was not going to get it done. Maybe he fits into your "flat out flop" definition. I hope Allen doesn't get the amount of time you envision.
Foxx Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Nextmanup said: EJ Manuel got 14 games before it was determined he was not going to get it done. Maybe he fits into your "flat out flop" definition. I hope Allen doesn't get the amount of time you envision. what?? you don't think Allen is deserving of the play he is getting? 1
dakrider Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, GG said: No, earlier in the play, as soon as he looks off his first read. He has both Beasley and Knox open. Both would be tight throws, but throws that an NFL QB should make. He had Knox open for a moment but then he had to avoid the rush. I think its pretty apparent he was throwing to Yeldon who was running when he began the throw, he might not have been able to catch it but he probably would have got a hand on it at least. He had a guy right in his face as well and didn't get off a great pass either. Allen can't predict exactly where his guy will go on a play like that. I think in fairness the pass wasn't as bad as it looked initially but still a QB int. But on a play like that you would think someone would get more open too.
Boatdrinks Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: EJ Manuel got 14 games before it was determined he was not going to get it done. Maybe he fits into your "flat out flop" definition. I hope Allen doesn't get the amount of time you envision. Well, EJ Manuel was overdrafted from the start and everyone but Nix / Whaley knew it. He was going to be available in the middle rounds. Allen is going to get multiple seasons , probably at least 3. Maybe more if the team wins. I’d say take that to the bank. 32 minutes ago, GG said: No, earlier in the play, as soon as he looks off his first read. He has both Beasley and Knox open. Both would be tight throws, but throws that an NFL QB should make. He didn’t like the positioning of 25. He might have thrown Beasley into a huge hit or INT. Then pressure, so he escaped it. Simple miscommunication on a scramble drill is all. Allen was being cautious initially but it’s a fine line sometimes . Pats game was fresh in his mind and overall I think he did pretty well. 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Just now, Boatdrinks said: Well, EJ Manuel was overdrafted from the start and everyone but Nix / Whaley knew it. He was going to be available in the middle rounds. Allen is going to get multiple seasons , probably at least 3. Maybe more if the team wins. I’d say take that to the bank. ...WORST part about that is Genome Smith was Buddy's 1st choice......they flew down to interview him and work him out.....the consensus on the plane ride home was, "um..no thanks"....EJ was their 2nd fiddle......BOTH were missing Round 1 "strings" PERIOD.....astonishingly, Smith is STILL NFL employed...SMH...... 1
DuckyBoys Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Allen is targeting Yeldon without a doubt You can see his helmet/eyes straight on locked to yeldon Yeldon may have stopped thinking he was in a open hole or he didnt want to run into where Beasley is turning. I can see how Allen was trying to throw Yeldon open With all those defenders a risky throw but I dont feel it was hero ball. Yeldon runs all the way its probably a completion and a 1st down He'll learn 1
Recommended Posts