Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 15 hours ago, Rocky Landing said: That could very well be an issue of trust. I think this is a fair take. For whatever reason Allen has quickly built trust with Beasley and with Brown that he can make tight contested throws and they’ll (usually) bring it in. He doesn’t seem to have built the same trust or rapport with Zay Jones even though he’s been throwing to him longer and Zay does often appear open (enough). One wonders why, and whether Zay is working on it - offering to come out early or stay late and take extra passes etc. Perhaps this last game, where he did target Zay and Zay did not fulfill WR101 (if I can’t catch it, I’ll make sure the guy in the wrong jersey can’t either) offers a clue.
WideRightRevenge Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 Let me be clear .. I thought the Jones pick would be great .. having watched him at ECU (my daughter goes there) and all time FBS reception leader ... well I was wrong. The link below shows he's the worse in catch % for the year and he was bottom 20 last year ... enough is enough. The lack of going for the ball vs. the two interceptions last week confirmed it for me. The WR should have a better idea of ball location than the DB. Rather see Foster or the Duke at this stage. He has been given sufficient time .. he's a role player as Joe B said .. not a game changer. https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#catch-percentage
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said: thanks for posting. quinn also has a long thread looking at Zay’s targets from all 4 games from just a couple hours ago. Unfortunately most have made up their minds about the guy and just dismiss this analysis and go on claiming he’s the worst player in the history of the Bills and other such nonsense. There is no doubt Zay has underachieved and has had some critical drops. But the issue I find I have to "argue" is getting factual #'s. First, by NFL rules. What is a drop? Does it have to touch their hands (wrist or arm) to be called a drop? Second by NFL rules. What is a target? Is a target a catchable ball, or something in the general vacinity? 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think this is a fair take. For whatever reason Allen has quickly built trust with Beasley and with Brown that he can make tight contested throws and they’ll (usually) bring it in. He doesn’t seem to have built the same trust or rapport with Zay Jones even though he’s been throwing to him longer and Zay does often appear open (enough). One wonders why, and whether Zay is working on it - offering to come out early or stay late and take extra passes etc. Perhaps this last game, where he did target Zay and Zay did not fulfill WR101 (if I can’t catch it, I’ll make sure the guy in the wrong jersey can’t either) offers a clue. The GM and HC bring in talent like Beasley and Brown (for starters - pardon the pun). I would think the coaches would say .... there's the 2 guys that we brought in to keep drives alive. Josh had better build chemistry, and fast. For what crap little it is worth, Zay was the leading WR last season. Is it - use under performing Zay or the shiny new toys!? Edited October 2, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) 2011 Drops Through Week 3 This standard says drops are "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort." Basically, we're talking about blatant drops, not the ones where your old man leans over and says anything that grazed the receiver anywhere was a drop in his day. What constitutes a dropped pass? - NFL Nation- ESPN https://www.espn.com › blog › nflnation › post › what-constitutes-a-dropped... I've been saying this for years ... the intended receiver should have caught the pass with ordinary effort." Edited October 2, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost
ALF Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 Zay was great in college , some of his targets were uncatchable against NE*. That D was very good to say the least. I haven't given up on him yet. 1
TroutDog Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 (edited) From the Athletic today: https://theathletic.com/1258181/2019/10/01/bills-all-22-review-dissecting-josh-allens-day-and-why-theres-more-to-zay-jones-than-meets-the-eye/ Quote: “Jones must learn to make plays when he’s given the opportunity in non-perfect situations. He has shown glimpses of it in the past, but not consistently enough. At the same time, it isn’t as though he’s a useless player on the field. Jones has been targeted 18 times in 2019 and has seven receptions to show for it. According to Sports Info Solutions, only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them. Here’s another stat you didn’t see coming: According to NextGen Stats, Jones has a higher average rate of separation (2.7) than John Brown does (2.3) through the first four weeks. Jones is a role player on an offense trying to find its way, not an impact player. Despite being a disappointment considering where the Bills drafted him, he does add value to the offense.” Also: ”At the same time, Jones is the best blocking receiver on the roster and it isn’t particularly close.” Edited October 2, 2019 by TroutDog 1
Pete Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, ALF said: Zay was great in college , some of his targets were uncatchable against NE*. That D was very good to say the least. I haven't given up on him yet. So was Tim Tebow
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 20 minutes ago, TroutDog said: From the Athletic today: https://theathletic.com/1258181/2019/10/01/bills-all-22-review-dissecting-josh-allens-day-and-why-theres-more-to-zay-jones-than-meets-the-eye/ Quote: “Jones must learn to make plays when he’s given the opportunity in non-perfect situations. He has shown glimpses of it in the past, but not consistently enough. At the same time, it isn’t as though he’s a useless player on the field. Jones has been targeted 18 times in 2019 and has seven receptions to show for it. According to Sports Info Solutions, only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them. Here’s another stat you didn’t see coming: According to NextGen Stats, Jones has a higher average rate of separation (2.7) than John Brown does (2.3) through the first four weeks. Jones is a role player on an offense trying to find its way, not an impact player. Despite being a disappointment considering where the Bills drafted him, he does add value to the offense.” Also: ”At the same time, Jones is the best blocking receiver on the roster and it isn’t particularly close.” only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them 1
Kelly the Dog Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them “Dropped passes” is a nearly worthless stat if you only count blatant ordinary catches, which they admit to. It’s all but saying all the passes each of us here should catch and not a starting NFL WR. What constitutes a drop to the average fan is wildly subjective. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: “Dropped passes” is a nearly worthless stat if you only count blatant ordinary catches, which they admit to. It’s all but saying all the passes each of us here should catch and not a starting NFL WR. What constitutes a drop to the average fan is wildly subjective. I agree. So is "targeted" balls. A throw away with any player in the area is labeled as "targeted" If only they actually collected throw away count stats. Again I'm not excusing Zay of dropsies.... I'm focusing in on the actuality of the situation. 2
Irv Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Dude, I’ve lost count of the times you’ve posted a mash-up with alligators or sticks of butter or what have you on Zay’s hands, but it’s become what I expect from you in a discussion of Zay or even a non-discussion of Zay where you bring it in. It’s tired. It no longer has the humor of novelty. Let it go. I took graphic arts in college. My teacher told me I had potential. You've squashed my dreams. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 5 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: only eight of those 18 targets were deemed catchable passes — and he’s brought in seven of them But, there were more catchable balls than they are saying. The TD drop against the Giants was catchable. The failed scoop pass against the Pats was catchable, even watched a backup TE do it for Mason Rudolph on MNF. Just to name a couple. One can’t just say the perfect throws or easy throws only count as catchable. He’s a professional NFL WR and he needs to make some of these catches too, not just ones that hit him in the chest (which he’s also dropped before). I mean both of those were critical moments in games. Thats one of the bigger issues with Zay, he doesn’t make tough catches and doesn’t come through in those big moments. Any WR in the NFL can catch 7 out 8 passes thrown in an easy to catch spot, especially since all of them to Zay were short to mid range throws. What separates one WR from the next is consistency and making more of those tough catches. But the biggest problem is clearly Zay and Allen also have no apparent chemistry.
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: But, there were more catchable balls than they are saying. The TD drop against the Giants was catchable. The failed scoop pass against the Pats was catchable, even watched a backup TE do it for Mason Rudolph on MNF. Just to name a couple. One can’t just say the perfect throws or easy throws only count as catchable. He’s a professional NFL WR and he needs to make some of these catches too, not just ones that hit him in the chest (which he’s also dropped before). I mean both of those were critical moments in games. Thats one of the bigger issues with Zay, he doesn’t make tough catches and doesn’t come through in those big moments. Any WR in the NFL can catch 7 out 8 passes thrown in an easy to catch spot, especially since all of them to Zay were short to mid range throws. What separates one WR from the next is consistency and making more of those tough catches. But the biggest problem is clearly Zay and Allen also have no apparent chemistry. Ok ? I’m fine with that. Of the 10 claimed uncatchable lets claim half were drops. 8+5=12. 7 of 12 isn’t that horrible is it? For Zay 58% is great Yes I know. Still not good enough 1
Alphadawg7 Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: Ok ? I’m fine with that. Of the 10 claimed uncatchable lets claim half were drops. 8+5=12. 7 of 12 isn’t that horrible is it? For Zay 58% is great Yes I know. Still not good enough I hear ya, but the bigger question for a lot of us is could someone like Duke do more if given the same reps given the apparent lack of chemistry between Allen and any receiver not named Cole or Brown. Basically would his better hands, size and larger catch radius be of more value to Allen at this point? Honestly, Zay’s 7 rec for 69 yards over 4 games isn’t hard to replace. So there isn’t a lot of risk to give Duke a shot at this point. And they don’t even have to get rid of Zay to get Duke on the active 53 either. Im also hoping Foster find his way back to relevancy too, I mean he is easily the most disappointing story of 2019 so far. I just tremble at the thought of either Cole or Brown getting hurt and missing time right now. PS: Can someone please tell Daboll to freaking get Knox more involved early and often moving forward already as well? 2
Success Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 He’s been alright - he’s actually made some pretty crucial catches in the wins Fans often judge players more harshly when they’re picked in a higher round. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: PS: Can someone please tell Daboll to freaking get Knox more involved early and often moving forward already as well? What was it with Roman? He had too many plays? Packages used too much and some not enough. Too many mistakes being made and having to sort that out. Seems a bit too much. 1
Nihilarian Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) Cole Beasley 36 targets, 24 receptions 66.7 catch percentage John Brown 34 targets, 23 receptions 67.6 catch percentage Zay Jones 18 targets, 7 receptions 38.9 catch percentage---This is Kelvin Benjamin territory who last season was 37.1 before being cut. Let's see if this changes with Matt Barkley in there this week as Zay Jones led the team in targets last season with 102 targets, 56 receptions 54.9 catch percentage. I don't know whats going on with Robert Foster but either put him on IR or play him. Put Zay on IR and bring up Duke Williams who might be slower but he is taller and will fight for those contested balls. JMHO Edited October 3, 2019 by Nihilarian 1
Rocket94 Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) The Robert Foster situation is mysterious. How can a guy who really flashed and played well last year regress to such a point and just vanish? The Bills need to make a decision on Foster. As for Zay Jones. A year from now, Jones may still be a Bill and some will ask, why all of the hate! Edited October 3, 2019 by Rocket94
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 9 hours ago, Rocket94 said: The Robert Foster situation is mysterious. How can a guy who really flashed and played well last year regress to such a point and just vanish? The Bills need to make a decision on Foster. As for Zay Jones. A year from now, Jones may still be a Bill and some will ask, why all of the hate! Rationalization #1 .. he's injured Rationalization#2 .. he's not that good either
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 12 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Cole Beasley 36 targets, 24 receptions 66.7 catch percentage John Brown 34 targets, 23 receptions 67.6 catch percentage Zay Jones 18 targets, 7 receptions 38.9 catch percentage---This is Kelvin Benjamin territory who last season was 37.1 before being cut. Let's see if this changes with Matt Barkley in there this week as Zay Jones led the team in targets last season with 102 targets, 56 receptions 54.9 catch percentage. I don't know whats going on with Robert Foster but either put him on IR or play him. Put Zay on IR and bring up Duke Williams who might be slower but he is taller and will fight for those contested balls. JMHO Lets not act like these are all drops or something. Allen has missed him by a mile quite a few times. 1
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