Have You Started To Lose Faith in Josh Allen?

[John from Riverside]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

It sucks because Tre White is a great young player. But qb just trumps everything.  I need much more of Allen looking like a qb to even get close to thinking this is ok.  With our d, Allen is going to have a chance to win a bunch of games.  But like with Mitch T, is he just along for the ride or is he driving the train like Mahomes?

I just dont feel that Josh is "along for the ride"

 

You can tell that his team mates really believe in him....he is a real leader....he makes big plays at key times.

 

To me he is what it means to BE a Buffalo Bill....perfect for this team and this city......and my opinion has not come CLOSE to his ceiling yet....and I dont think he reaches that his year becuase he was so raw coming into the league.

 

Most pundits felt Josh Allen needed to sit a year before he even played......he overcame that

[DrDawkinstein]

15 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

You realize this is just an opinion right?

 

If this is true (and I don't think it is), either the Pegulas don't know what they're doing, or McDermott is unbelievably stubborn. 

 

The Pegulas DONT know what they are doing. They admitted as much right off the bat. At the time, they were still brand new owners fresh into the NFL world. Which is a historied and closed off good ol boy club. They had to go to consulting groups just to get lists of potential candidates for HC since they didnt personally know anyone.

 

They arent football people. They are hockey people. Their only prior experience was running an NHL team. And even the biggest and best NHL team doesnt hold a candle to the worst NFL team as it pertains to the operations of the franchise.

 

They bought the team during the fire sale to keep it in Buffalo, and are figuring it out as they go from there. They are still learning today, and will still be learning for years to come.

Edited October 1, 2019 by DrDawkinstein

[dous21]

37 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

I was thinking about this whole Mahomes regret thing.

 

Who's worse in that situation? The Bills or the Bears?
 

The Bears traded up to take Trubisky. The Bills traded down out of the spot Mahomes was taken in.

 

To me, the BEARS are the ones who made the grand error.

 

 

Are you forgetting the fact we traded UP to select Allen who was even a bigger project QB than Mahomes was. 

 

Trubisky led his team to a playoff birth last season. Can Allen do the same with a very similar rated defense this year? 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I just dont feel that Josh is "along for the ride"

 

You can tell that his team mates really believe in him....he is a real leader....he makes big plays at key times.

 

To me he is what it means to BE a Buffalo Bill....perfect for this team and this city......and my opinion has not come CLOSE to his ceiling yet....and I dont think he reaches that his year becuase he was so raw coming into the league.

 

Most pundits felt Josh Allen needed to sit a year before he even played......he overcame that

You make good points John and I always respect your opinion.  I agree that teammates love Allen and he is a good fit here.  But sometimes, that stuff isn’t enough. Guys loved Fitz.  Losman bought a house in Buffalo and cleaned it up.  I hate being jaded but this stuff doesn’t matter if you aren’t good enough.  

 

Ive grown to love all the intangible things about Allen but the word potential sucks.  All it means is you haven’t done anything yet.  With Allen’s skills, he should have dominated his college conference. For as good as he is as a runner, his passing numbers are pretty terrible for his career.  

 

I liked what what I saw in the first few games with him taking the short throws.  I just want to have a game where the d isn’t dominant and Allen just has to win it.  But this team should be competing for the playoffs this year and Allen will get some chances to produce in some big spots.  

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Great question for the Pegulas. If I remember correctly, it was because they were surprisingly blown away by McD as a breathe of fresh air they hadnt yet experienced in the building around OBD. And given the Wilson/Overdorf/Brandon/Whaley lineage and culture, I dont doubt that.

 

Plus, it's rare to fire a GM right before the draft.

 

I believe the Pegulas fully intended to find a HC to work with Whaley, but ended up finding something better. And by then it was too late into the offseason to clean house. You have to wait until after the draft. Plus, all the money they spent on consulting groups was to find HC candidates, not GM. So they started there.

 

Theres plenty the Pegulas have done already that I dont love. Still dont like their "flat org chart" where everyone answers to Terry. It makes for less accountability.

 

But here we are.

 

 

 

 

And I will always love the Pegulas, especially you Kim ?.  But they have made some very curious decisions.  But I’m confident that they will get there and their hearts are in the right place. 

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You make good points John and I always respect your opinion.  I agree that teammates love Allen and he is a good fit here.  But sometimes, that stuff isn’t enough. Guys loved Fitz.  Losman bought a house in Buffalo and cleaned it up.  I hate being jaded but this stuff doesn’t matter if you aren’t good enough.  

 

Ive grown to love all the intangible things about Allen but the word potential sucks.  All it means is you haven’t done anything yet.  With Allen’s skills, he should have dominated his college conference. For as good as he is as a runner, his passing numbers are pretty terrible for his career.  

 

I liked what what I saw in the first few games with him taking the short throws.  I just want to have a game where the d isn’t dominant and Allen just has to win it.  But this team should be competing for the playoffs this year and Allen will get some chances to produce in some big spots.  

Can we agree that Losman is actually bad example?  He doesnt have close to Allen's ability......he was no where near the leader Allen is (his own team mate intentionally hurt him) and he never came up big in small times

That is why the EJ Manuel comparison because of numbers is not good as well....they are simply not hte same player

 

Its also about upside for me....I realize that upside is something that you "believe in but havent seen yet" but what I see is a good enough QB for now that is going to get better as time goes on

 

He is up over 60 percent in completion percentage....and frankly he just looks more accurate this year

He had problem with his short game last year....this year it is much improved

His protection is still not great...how many times does he get away from sacks....a bunch

Duel threat QB but this year you can tell he is mentally making that effort to stay in the pocket (sometimes when he actually SHOULD take off)

 

We are fine here

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You make good points John and I always respect your opinion.  I agree that teammates love Allen and he is a good fit here.  But sometimes, that stuff isn’t enough. Guys loved Fitz.  Losman bought a house in Buffalo and cleaned it up.  I hate being jaded but this stuff doesn’t matter if you aren’t good enough.  

 

Ive grown to love all the intangible things about Allen but the word potential sucks.  All it means is you haven’t done anything yet.  With Allen’s skills, he should have dominated his college conference. For as good as he is as a runner, his passing numbers are pretty terrible for his career.  

 

I liked what what I saw in the first few games with him taking the short throws.  I just want to have a game where the d isn’t dominant and Allen just has to win it.  But this team should be competing for the playoffs this year and Allen will get some chances to produce in some big spots.  

 

I agree with you which is why I like the fact that despite the dominant D the Bills are asking Josh Allen to win them games. The approach others want to take of being a 55-60% running team, playing good defense, giving Josh manageable 3rd down throws to win is babying him. 

 

I have no interest in that. In being where the Bears are where suddenly your defense looks human for a Quarter or a half and then you are in trouble. I want Josh to be a Quarterback who can win you games and I totally reject the assertion that he can learn to do that when you are not asking him to do that. 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with you which is why I like the fact that despite the dominant D the Bills are asking Josh Allen to win them games. The approach others want to take of being a 55-60% running team, playing good defense, giving Josh manageable 3rd down throws to win is babying him. 

 

I have no interest in that. In being where the Bears are where suddenly your defense looks human for a Quarter or a half and then you are in trouble. I want Josh to be a Quarterback who can win you games and I totally reject the assertion that he can learn to do that when you are not asking him to do that. 

 

Worked for Wilson and the Seahawks tho

[DrDawkinstein]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And I will always love the Pegulas, especially you Kim ?.  But they have made some very curious decisions.  But I’m confident that they will get there and their hearts are in the right place. 

 

Agreed 100%. Outside of the reporting structure, I fully understand the ENORMOUS endeavor the Pegulas have taken on, and that it may take them a little while to get their feet under them.

 

While I dont agree with every move they have made, I like a lot of what I've seen so far, and believe they are working toward a goal we all want to achieve.

 

I also like that where they have made mistakes in the very beginning (Brandon and Rex), they were quick to identify them as mistakes and make changes.

 

We'll get there.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

Worked for Wilson and the Seahawks tho

 

It did. But I just don't think Josh Allen is anything like Russell Wilson. And they had at the time as well the highest paid offensive line in the NFL. He had a wall infront of him his first two years. I still say Unger for Graham is the player for player trade I have ever witnessed in the NFL. 

 

I think the Bills are getting it right with Josh. He is at his best with the game in his hands feeling involved. 

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It did. But I just don't think Josh Allen is anything like Russell Wilson. And they had at the time as well the highest paid offensive line in the NFL. He had a wall infront of him his first two years. I still say Unger for Graham is the player for player trade I have ever witnessed in the NFL. 

 

 

I’ll go with Kelvin Sheppard for Jerry Hughes.

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It did. But I just don't think Josh Allen is anything like Russell Wilson. And they had at the time as well the highest paid offensive line in the NFL. He had a wall infront of him his first two years. I still say Unger for Graham is the player for player trade I have ever witnessed in the NFL. 

 

I think the Bills are getting it right with Josh. He is at his best with the game in his hands feeling involved. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that they're putting more on his plate this year. I think w/the composition of the team it's the right call...but for example I don't think a couple more handoffs or Gore screens at the end of the game Sunday would have stunted his development any. 

 

Wilson was WAY more polished a passer than Allen and a comparable runner, so maybe it's not teh best comparison. Plus their defense was significantly better. But in terms of managing a QB with average-ish wideouts and similar offensive lines...it's obviously a case by case approach but you CAN bring a young guy along slowly, to spectacular results. Your point about Allen and the Bill's situation though I tend to agree with. If he continues improving (Sunday clearly a step back but overall his trajectory is up imo) this team's ceiling is about as high as it goes.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, mannc said:

I’ll go with Kelvin Sheppard for Jerry Hughes.

 

Fair but that was two bad teams swapping supposed busts. 

 

This was a team giving up the best center in the game for a freaking Tight End. Football 101 would tell you that is a bad idea. 

Just now, GoBills808 said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that they're putting more on his plate this year. I think w/the composition of the team it's the right call...but for example I don't think a couple more handoffs or Gore screens at the end of the game Sunday would have stunted his development any. 

 

Wilson was WAY more polished a passer than Allen and a comparable runner, so maybe it's not teh best comparison. Plus their defense was significantly better. But in terms of managing a QB with average-ish wideouts and similar offensive lines...it's obviously a case by case approach but you CAN bring a young guy along slowly, to spectacular results. Your point about Allen and the Bill's situation though I tend to agree with. If he continues improving (Sunday clearly a step back but overall his trajectory is up imo) this team's ceiling is about as high as it goes.

 

Yea I am not saying it can never be done. I am just saying this time, for this team and particularly this Quarterback it is the wrong approach. The same as I thought sitting him to watch and "learn" from Nathan Peterman before week 1 last season was for the birds. It just misunderstands I think who Josh is. He is never going to be the cerebral decision maker. He is an emotional guy who plays on the atmosphere and the vibe in the huddle. He is at his most special when the game is on him. 

[Nihilarian]

This entire comparison to Patrick Mahomes is ridiculous. Allen doesn't have Andy Reid coaching, developing him. Instead he has a guy who thought that Nathan Peterman should be the 2018 starter...  

 

I should stop right here because the coaching issue is supreme! 

 

Then consider Mahomes actually sat for an entire season learning behind Alex Smith...a former #1 overall QB who led the Chiefs to a 10-6 record. 

 

Mahomes also had pro bowl/all pro WR Tyreek Hill, pro bowl/all pro TE Travis Kelce. Pro bowl Tackle Eric Fisher, all pro tackle Mitchel Schwartz, Center Mitch Morse. RB Kareem Hunt.

 

Allen didn't and still doesn't have talent around him like Mahomes has and he was thrown to the proverbial wolves behind the worst O line in the NFL with a crappy receiving corps and virtually no running game besides himself! 

 

Just giving Allen a coach like Andy Reid with this current surrounding cast and the Bills offense would be totally different. 

[RyanC883]

Allen to me has improved and regressed: 

 

Improved: staying in the pocket, making short to intermediate throws.  

 

Regressed: Staying in pocket too long, taking bad sacks, not throwing the ball away.  Also regressed, accuracy on the long ball, and staring down his WR in both intermediate and long routes.  

 

If he can fix his regression and continue to work on what he's improved upon, we will be very hard to defend.  

[london_bills]

Mahomes makes it look SOO EASY ?

[Zerovoltz]

About Mahomes:

 

First lets revisit the 2017 NFL draft.

 

1. Cleveland.  Rumored to be interested in a QB, but having their pick of the whole lot, opted for sure thing Miles Garrett...who has been pretty good.  Cleveland also had pick 12.

2. San Francisco.  PRE JIMMY G.  They had no QB, but were rumored to be the no.1 destination for Kirk Cousins.  They opted to trade with the Bears.  The Bears, thinking someone might come up for Trubisky, wanted to secure him....this, was huge mistake.  Traded picks to move up one spot and got tea biscuit.

3.  Chicago.  Traded with SF.  SF, apparently sure about Cousins, also opted not to take a QB.  They also had their choice of the whole lot before trading.  Instead they go with Solomon Thomas, who has sucked.

4. Jacksonville.  No one seems to want to give these guys crap here for taking Leonard Fournette instead of a QB.  They still had Bortles and were paying him.  

5. Tennesee.  There was a Rumor KC offered a bounty to come up to 5.  The titans took WR corey Davis.  He hasn't done much.

6. NY Jets.  I love this one.  McCagnon had drafted QB Hackenberg the year before and wanted to "see what we have" with him.  They took Jamal Adams instead, who has been good, but not the QB they needed badly.

7. LA Chargers.  Took Mike Williams. WR Clemson.  The Chargers can't really be blamed..they have/had Phillip Rivers.  Williams has shown some flashes, but not exactly the impact you'd want from pick 7.

8. Carolina.  Christian McCaffrey.  Already had CAM...this has been a very good pick.

9. Bengals.  Antother team that doesn't get near the crap they should for passing on Mahomes.  Took WR John Ross.  Been mostly injured for 2 years...finally playing this year.  Could have had Mahomes, instead of Andy Dalton.

 

10.  Cheifs trade up.  Try and remember the wierd deal where Whaley was still in Bufalo and McDermott, a defensive coach who had only been on the job a month, wasn't going to select a QB without input from a new GM that he knew was coming AFTER the draft.  If you want to blame someone, blame the Pegulas for botching their offseason.

 

OK. Mahomes goes to KC.  KC has Alex Smith.  Mahomes sits.  Smith starts.  Lots and lots of rumors that Mahomes was balling out in practices and was ready to go by week 6.  Andy made the mistake of rolling with Smith (if you want to call it a mistake..still won division title)  Mahomes has credited Smith with helping to show him how to prepare for game week etc...but not how to "be a quarterback".  I can't argue that if you want to say they sat Mahomes a year and that it helped....fine...I'd argue he shouldn't have sat...or should have been starting by week 8.

 

That brings us to 2018.  Tyreek Hill is a difference maker at WR.  Kelce is a star TE.  ....Schwartz is a pro bowl caliber RT.  Eric Fisher is a JAG at LT.  He made the pro bowl as an alternate ONCE.  Hunt only played 8 games before KC had to let him go.  His replacement....Damien Williams put up the same if not better numbers.  (in 2019, Damien has been hurt and Shady, and DARREL williams have put up numbers just fine.  the RB does not matter in KC)  Mitch Morse played in 2018 some.  KC also was starting a backup C, a 2nd string RG and third string LG by the time the year was over.  THEY SUCKED.

 

In 2019, with no Hill, the same crappy backup center.  no Eric Fisher.  3rd and 4th string RB, JAGs at both guard spots...Mahomes is still tearing it up.  I think most of you are convinced at this point what Mahomes is, but for the hold outs....WATCH HIM PLAY.  Dont worry about the stat sheet or who you think he has for targets.  He never stops looking downfield.  He keeps his eyes downfield while on the move.  He has very good pocket presence.  ...and he can throw a football from any platform while moving forward, backward, right or left.  He goes through reads quickly and has a quick trigger.  That plays on ANY roster.  

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

Josh Allen has the strongest arm in the NFL. He's learning how to fine tune that weapon. He tried to do things Sunday that you just can't do against elite defenses. Part of that falls on the play calling as well. It's a learning opportunity, and we'll see what adjustments are made in his next game.

[Phil The Thrill]

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Def put that on Pegula more than anyone else.

 

Should've fired Whaley in January and hired Beane then. 

I’m shocked to see you write “should’ve fired Whaley!”  You thought Doug did a great job

 

But I would agree.  Many believed that Terry was close to hiring Bill Polian as football czar in 2014 before Rex was hired.  While he declined a formal position, he was rumored to stay in close contact with The Pegulas, maybe even as an unofficial consultant.  Given the fact that he’s old school, I can see him telling the Pegulas to not fire Doug until after the draft because he has a lot of intel.  
 

But outside of passing on some great QB and WR prospects, Whaley as a lame duck GM screwed up a bunch of things:

 

- Did not recognize FA compensation and signed marginal scrubs to offset compensation picks they would have been awarded.

 

- Failed to pick up a 5th year option on Sammy Watkins (another player you love).  Even if they didn’t want to keep him, the 5th year option would have driven up his value.  Beane inherited this situation and his hand was forced.

9 minutes ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Josh Allen has the strongest arm in the NFL. He's learning how to fine tune that weapon. He tried to do things Sunday that you just can't do against elite defenses. Part of that falls on the play calling as well. It's a learning opportunity, and we'll see what adjustments are made in his next game.

What makes you think he’ll learn?  Because in nearly 1 1/2 years as a pro, he hasn’t.

[london_bills]

When I first got into football all I would read is cannon arm this, rocket arm that.

 

People generally go ON and ON about Allen's ARM.

 

Give me the rest please. I don't want an arm behind a scrimmage throwing a football.

 

Give me a brain. Give me an instinct. Give me composure.

[Alphadawg7]

I am losing faith...in TSW hot takes.