Have You Started To Lose Faith in Josh Allen?

[Phil The Thrill]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

The 15 start mark is also where the fanbase started calling for EJ's head.  I remember it like it was yesterday.  

 

This is a completely different situation, from ownership on down (thank GOD).  I'm confident the end result will also be different.

Serious question - what makes you so confident?  I’ve been pretty discouraged with Allen this season - the INTS are one thing, but then there are the fumbles, poor decision making, taking sacks etc

 

I’m not basing this on EJ - I’m considering the fact that while Allen has moved the offense, he has also set them back with really bad plays.  He has an extremely high number of turnovers over the past few games and this doesn’t seem to be something that’s going away.

 

Like I said here earlier, I’m not one of these “start Barkley” guys.  We need to Allen to take every snap we can get this season.

 

But at some point, the excuses need to stop.  You need to see more this year at QB, or this regime will be looking for a plan B

[london_bills]

1 minute ago, entropyrules said:

I don't think he's a bust but I do believe he will never be that superstar QB you need to win a Superbowl. Maybe with a "lights out" D he can do it but his inability to see the field limits the number of big plays he'll make when under pressure.

This is it. Starting to see these open receivers he's missing and often he's not even looking on one side of the field.

[Gugny]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Serious question - what makes you so confident?  I’ve been pretty discouraged with Allen this season - the INTS are one thing, but then there are the fumbles, poor decision making, taking sacks etc

 

I’m not basing this on EJ - I’m considering the fact that while Allen has moved the offense, he has also set them back with really bad plays.  He has an extremely high number of turnovers over the past few games and this doesn’t seem to be something that’s going away.

 

Like I said here earlier, I’m not one of these “start Barkley” guys.  We need to Allen to take every snap we can get this season.

 

But at some point, the excuses need to stop.  You need to see more this year at QB, or this regime will be looking for a plan B

 

Serious response - I acknowledge the negative, but focus on the positive.  It's too easy to pick out all the negative stuff and to ride that train; especially when there have been so many positives/signs of growth and progress.

 

I've been critical of Josh this year, but I've also enjoyed seeing the improvements he's made.

 

Also ... perspective.  We're talking about a kid in his early 20s.  We're talking about a young QB with a lot of mediocre receiving options.  We didn't have Singletary or Foster on Sunday.

 

I'll also remind you that the Bills played the defending Super Bowl Champions; the team that has the best QB and HC of all time.

 

Of the four (let that sink in .... four) games this season, the only one in which Josh was legitimately BAD was vs. the Pats.

 

That's what makes me confident.

[london_bills]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Serious response - I acknowledge the negative, but focus on the positive.  It's too easy to pick out all the negative stuff and to ride that train; especially when there have been so many positives/signs of growth and progress.

 

I've been critical of Josh this year, but I've also enjoyed seeing the improvements he's made.

 

Also ... perspective.  We're talking about a kid in his early 20s.  We're talking about a young QB with a lot of mediocre receiving options.  We didn't have Singletary or Foster on Sunday.

 

I'll also remind you that the Bills played the defending Super Bowl Champions; the team that has the best QB and HC of all time.

 

Of the four (let that sink in .... four) games this season, the only one in which Josh was legitimately BAD was vs. the Pats.

 

That's what makes me confident.

What are examples of positives/signs of growth and progress for you?

 

 

[Doc Brown]

Look.  There's a lot of things he still needs to improve on and he's better now compared to a year ago.  If he has a lot more games like that the rest of the year then it's fair to say we need a plan B.

 

One thing that is inexcusable though is throwing across is body when falling out of bounce trying to play "hero ball" or whatever you call it.  Even terrible QB's can quickly fix that aspect of their game.

[Wayne Cubed]

13 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Well, this moron of an OC asked Allen to throw 41 times against the Patriots last season! Oh, boo hoo we didn't have a running game, boo hoo. BS! Keith Ford had 7 rushes for 33 yards a 4.7 YPC avg. the Bills only attempted 17 rushes that game vs 41 passes. 

 

Ah yes, a post of stats, without any context. The first half rushes for the Bills were as follows:

 

(first play of the game) K.Ford right guard to BUF 27 for 1 yard

L.McCoy right end to BUF 18 for -4 yards

L.McCoy left guard to NE 24 for 5 yards

K.Ford left guard to BUF 31 for 5 yards

K.Ford right guard to BUF 33 for 2 yards

L.McCoy right end pushed ob at BUF 30 for 1 yard

L.McCoy right tackle to NE 30 for 2 yards

(end of the half)K.Ford up the middle to BUF 14 for 5 yards

 

So in the first half the Bills had 8 rushes for 17 yards. Clearly running the ball wasn't working. And really it was 7 rushes for 12 yards because the end of the half run by Ford was NE** going into the locker room. So no BS there, the Bills didn't have a running game.

 

Also for context, Ford's longest run, 11 yards came on the last series for the Bills, when the game had already been decided. So while you might like to cherry pick the overall stats. Context shows that Ford didn't nearly have the game you think he had. At the half he had 3 rushes for 8 yards, that free 5 yards from NE** before the half only inflates his stats. But even then he was only averaging just over 3 YPC. He did much the same the second half. It's the 11 yard run at the end of the game that puts his runs at over 4 YPC. Context.

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, london_bills said:

What are examples of positives/signs of growth and progress for you?

 

 

 

Overall:  accuracy, decisiveness, not bailing the pocket too soon.  All the things that concerned most people last year.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, london_bills said:

Allen might be better in an uptempo offence when there's less time to 'think'.

 

Yep. I think he would. The issue is getting him to stay in the mind set of getting it out quick. There were plays designed like that on Sunday where despite the design Josh holds it, and holds it and holds it looking for the big play. I thought there was massive improvement in that regard weeks 1 and 2 his snap to throw time was down from 3.1 seconds last year to 2.7 seconds through two weeks. His average for the season has crept back up now to 2.9 seconds which tells me he has reverted a little to holding it too long. Now give Cincy and New England some credit, their corners have played decent games against us (and are much better than the Giants and Jets corners) but it is concerning. I want to see that number come back down to that 2.7 sort of range.

29 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Yea, it's certainly not Daboll, to my eye. He gives Josh plenty of easy throws that either Josh misses (doesn't see) or misses (the throw).  I really like the offense Daboll has made, it lives and dies with Josh, which a modern NFL offense should. Penalties and mistakes have hampered it some but I can't really say I've disliked too much of what I've seen. The only parts which I've seen that have been questionable are from a personnel perspective (going heavy with L. Smith to open the Pats** game, Singletray's use etc.)

 

I thought Daboll had a pretty poor outing on Sunday (maybe Bill just knows the way he thinks and his tendencies.... for Belichick it is kind of like going against his own O in practice) but generally the other 3 games I think Daboll has done a good job.

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Well, this moron of an OC asked Allen to throw 41 times against the Patriots last season! Oh, boo hoo we didn't have a running game, boo hoo. BS! Keith Ford had 7 rushes for 33 yards a 4.7 YPC avg. the Bills only attempted 17 rushes that game vs 41 passes. 

 

Building a power run game to work the offense from is not babying the QB! Besides in that very same game that Daboll asked Allen to throw 41 times the Bills D had shut down QB GOAT Tom Brady so the Patriots went to the run game...and won!

 

I never said anything about hiding or babying Allen. What I said was, build the run game and allow him to work off that with short passes to build his confidence and allow him to get into a rhythm. Simply put, don't put the entire offense on the young QB's shoulders or at times he will feel the need to make a big play to win the game like he has done n the past.

 

If you recall the 2018 Buffalo Bills lead the NFL in deep throw last year! Yeah, with that horrifically craptastic worst in the NFL O line. Deeper throws require more time in the pocket which Allen didn't have... so he took it on himself to win most of those games with his arm and legs. This Sunday against the Patriots either the Bills receivers weren't getting open or the line wasn't holding up a lot of the time. Yes, Allen made some bad throws and so did Tom Brady!

 

This current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator has a past record of not being very good. MY ONLY HOPE is that McD wakes up and tells the OC to run it more to protect the ball by running more which will allow his defense to win the game. This will also help Allen develop and not make him feel like he needs to carry the offense.

 

I fundamentally disagree with with you Nihilarian. If you wanted a run heavy gameplan and then ask the QB to make the key chain movers on 3rd downs that is not the guy Josh Allen is and I 100% believe he would look worse in that type of offense. If that is what you wanted to run the guy you should have drafted is playing for the Steelers. Josh Allen is at his best when he is in rhythm, up tempo, spread concepts and the ball is in his hands. The way that the Seahawks developed Russell Wilson or the way the Ravens developed Joe Flacco is not the way I believe you have to do it in the modern NFL. You have to run some, absolutely, but you have to get your Quarterback involved. And Josh Allen in particular, more than any QB I can ever remember seeing, is a rhythm guy. When he is in rhythm with the ball in his hands he plays his best. When he is out of rhythm and being asked to just hand it off and make the odd throw those throws are invariably off target.

[london_bills]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. I think he would. The issue is getting him to stay in the mind set of getting it out quick. There were plays designed like that on Sunday where despite the design Josh holds it, and holds it and holds it looking for the big play. I thought there was massive improvement in that regard weeks 1 and 2 his snap to throw time was down from 3.1 seconds last year to 2.7 seconds through two weeks. His average for the season has crept back up now to 2.9 seconds which tells me he has reverted a little to holding it too long. Now give Cincy and New England some credit, their corners have played decent games against us (and are much better than the Giants and Jets corners) but it is concerning. I want to see that number come back down to that 2.7 sort of range.

Yeah that's interesting. First drive of the first game he looked great to me.

 

I saw something 'happen' to him in the patriots game. His game is there and then can competely unravel it seems. 

 

I will say his biggest strength to me is his short memory. I've seen him come back from mistakes and he needs to continue to do that.

Edited October 1, 2019 by london_bills

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, london_bills said:

Yeah that's interesting. First drive of the first game he looked great to me.

 

I saw something 'happen' to him in the patriots game. His game is there and then can competely unravel it seems. 

 

I will say his biggest strength to me is his short memory. I've seen him come back from mistakes and he needs to continue to do that.

 

I think he needs to come back from mistakes quicker. They seem to linger for a drive or two. He gets frustrated and down on himself. His ability to dust himself down in the 4th Quarter and make plays in the clutch is very impressive, but he has to shake the mistakes off more quickly.

[london_bills]

Great QBs go up a gear when they have to.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 minutes ago, london_bills said:

Great QBs go up a gear when they have to.

Which he's proven to do on several occasions.

 

[downunderbill]

No faith lost yet. One of the things BB does really well is bait young QB's.

[BillyD0123]

My impartial opinion of the game was Brady played horribly & credit the Bill's D. Allen on the other hand, just is a sub par passing QB no way around it.

[london_bills]

9 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Which he's proven to do on several occasions.

 

I've seen Josh Allen go up a gear yes.

And we've all seen the meltdown.

 

The full context is I've seen the going up a  gear against lesser teams.

 

Not a criticism at all, he just plays the opposition thats there - but let's now see the Dallas TV game, next patriots game, Phillie game. Let see those and how he bounces back from the hit.

Edited October 1, 2019 by london_bills

[SoTier]

10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Ben R also threw very limited passes per game that year. It’s also possible that JA could lead the Bills to a WC berth in his first full season as starter. Lots of football left to go before any decision is made on this guy. Every player is different, and it really doesn’t matter if fans believe in him from the jump. They’re not making the decisions, and that’s probably a very good thing. 

 

Russell Wilson as a rookie also relied on heavy run support in the person of Marshawn Lynch.  In fact, Wilson wasn't considered a grerat passer until his third or fourth year in the league.  That doesn't mean that he "didn't get it from the start". 

 

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Luck is a good one.  Big Ben and Flacco relies on a strong D and strong running game, which may not be a bad idea for the Bills.  Let Allen develop.

 

My whole point with my list is that rookie QBs who have success "out of the gate" and sustain that success going forward haven't been all that rare in the last 15 or 16 years -- about 1 every 3 or 4 seasons.  If you include QBs who sit all or most of their first year and find immediate success as sophomore, you have to include Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes, the GOAT and the apparent successor to the GOAT as the best QB in the NFL.

 

All last season and this off season, my biggest beef with the Bills has been that the Bills did not provide Allen with the support that he needed, and I still stand by that.  The Bills had a good defense but they didn't have an OL, they didn't have a running game, they didn't have an NFL caliber receiving corps, and they didn't even bother to hire a bonafide QB coach.  David Culley hadn't actually coached QBs for 30 years, and that was 1 year as a QB coach at a small college program.  They set up Allen for failure last season, and most of his success came from playing "hero ball" like he did in college while playing against some pretty poor teams.

 

I think that the common denominator among rookie/young QBs who find immediate success in the NFL is that they are "coachable", ie they accept coaching and adapt/alter their playing style to fit their coaches' styles.  They also learn from their mistakes.   I think that the lack of competent QB coaching as a rookie has made Allen less amenable to really listening to his coaches.  I think that the Bills were able to overcome Allen's lapses in the first three games, so that just made him over confident in his ability and less likely to listen the coaches.  On the one drive against the Pats that he did what the coaches wanted him to do, the Bills found success.  Then he reverted to "hero ball" again and got his bell rung.

 

Hopefully, Allen learns more from his failure and injury than he has from his three successes.

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Ah yes, a post of stats, without any context. The first half rushes for the Bills were as follows:

 

(first play of the game) K.Ford right guard to BUF 27 for 1 yard

L.McCoy right end to BUF 18 for -4 yards

L.McCoy left guard to NE 24 for 5 yards

K.Ford left guard to BUF 31 for 5 yards

K.Ford right guard to BUF 33 for 2 yards

L.McCoy right end pushed ob at BUF 30 for 1 yard

L.McCoy right tackle to NE 30 for 2 yards

(end of the half)K.Ford up the middle to BUF 14 for 5 yards

 

So in the first half the Bills had 8 rushes for 17 yards. Clearly running the ball wasn't working. And really it was 7 rushes for 12 yards because the end of the half run by Ford was NE** going into the locker room. So no BS there, the Bills didn't have a running game.

 

Also for context, Ford's longest run, 11 yards came on the last series for the Bills, when the game had already been decided. So while you might like to cherry pick the overall stats. Context shows that Ford didn't nearly have the game you think he had. At the half he had 3 rushes for 8 yards, that free 5 yards from NE** before the half only inflates his stats. But even then he was only averaging just over 3 YPC. He did much the same the second half. It's the 11 yard run at the end of the game that puts his runs at over 4 YPC. Context.

Its not cheery picking when the OC gives up on the run game after only 17 rushes in a game and asks the rookie QB to throw 41 times. Especially when this same OC is asking that QB to throw deep so often behind a known bad line.  Its simply moronic in my view. 

 

Its okay though, keep defending this OC all the way up until he gets fired or he gets this entire coaching staff fired.

 

Another thing, this current OC doesn't seem to get the plays in on time as the team is taking timeouts on offense. In this last game they even took a delay of game because they ran out of time outs. This is game mismanagement by the OC pure and simple.

[Wayne Cubed]

14 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Its not cheery picking when the OC gives up on the run game after only 17 rushes in a game and asks the rookie QB to throw 41 times. Especially when this same OC is asking that QB to throw deep so often behind a known bad line.  Its simply moronic in my view. 

 

Its okay though, keep defending this OC all the way up until he gets fired or he gets this entire coaching staff fired.

 

Another thing, this current OC doesn't seem to get the plays in on time as the team is taking timeouts on offense. In this last game they even took a delay of game because they ran out of time outs. This is game mismanagement by the OC pure and simple.

 

Cool, so ignore the context I posted.

 

EDIT: You can bold and underline stuff as much as you like, doesn't change the fact that the running game wasn't working, like you said it was and the Bills had to throw the ball.

 

Also, Daboll isn't asking Josh to throw deep often, so you are wrong there again. Josh is choosing to throw long. He is ignoring or missing the underneath stuff. It happened multiple times on Sunday. He had players open underneath and he looked long instead. Please stop with the over exaggeration.

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Wayne Cubed

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Another thing, this current OC doesn't seem to get the plays in on time as the team is taking timeouts on offense. In this last game they even took a delay of game because they ran out of time outs. This is game mismanagement by the OC pure and simple.

 

The first timeout that Allen took on offense was less on Daboll and more on Allen. They were at the line with 9 seconds on the play clock. Allen obviously did not like what he saw and called TO.

 

If you are waiting for a 1990s OC who will run a ton you better hope we re-hire Roman or you will be waiting a while.