oldmanfan Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 Just now, london_bills said: There can be an element of the grass is greener yes. I would like to the see the potential of a strong 3 TD game at some point to take me away from the doubt of a 3 INT game. We haven't seen that yet. I have seen good things but also remember the start of the jests game was scripted. The start of the half against the patriots was scripted. Does he have the it factor? I'm not convinced, but I admit yesterday's game started to plant the seed of doubt. I think the first 3 games show us he has what it takes, but he has to get consistent. The first few games he was getting the ball out on time, taking the shorter throws. Yes, a couple poor decisions but overall good and brought his team back three times. That shows great potential to me. I’m hoping yesterday was a combination of not being ready for the bright lights and Belichick.
Buffalo716 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: We'll just have to disagree. Thays fine but here's backups I unquestionably would take over him Eli manning , Teddy Bridgewater, Ryan Tannehill, Chase Daniels, Brian Hoyer, Blake Bortles, Fitzpatrick, Foles/minshaw, Matt Moore, Jarrett stidham So maybe he's closer to 40 He isn't bottom 5 but definitely not top 5 Edited September 30, 2019 by Buffalo716
CincyBillsFan Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 7 hours ago, JAMIEBUF12 said: Def not losing faith.I feel Josh and the team are still jelling and learning what works and what does not work.Obviously the coaches will show Josh that defenses are going to try to force you to roll right and bait you into a mistake.Knowing that like last year not being good at the short game Josh will grow or turn that part of his game into a strength... on a side note I know Sam Darnold only played one game , but how is Baker Mayfield,Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson all doing in their second year??? I’d say Josh is right on par with the rest of the year two quarterbacks.GO BILLS! I agree that Allen is still at the head of this class but by a small margin: * Baker's opening game at home was like Allen's was yesterday minus going up against an elite pass defense and evil genius coach. Baker threw 3 INT's and lost a fumble that game. Also, there isn't a defense in the NFL that Allen wouldn't score on given FOUR shots from the 4 yard line. Baker couldn't in a home game against the Rams. * Rosen showed life yesterday against LA but overall has done nothing yet this year playing for the worst team in football. * Jackson started hot but the Ravens have lost 2 in a row and when it mattered Jackson was pretty bad in both games. Sure he tacked on 2 TD passes and probably 150 yards against KC & Cleveland's BACK UP defenders playing a PREVENT defense to make his stats look better then Allen's but it's fools gold if you think 50 yard TD throws with 50 seconds left in a game you're trailing by 40 - 19 mean anything. As usual people are way over reacting to what happened yesterday. 1
Bangarang Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Most guys who are currently considered established franchise QBs in the NFL right now were good as soon as they got on the field. You have to know your audience here. There were people here still believing EJ Manuel would win the QB competition for Rex and suddenly be a franchise QB in his 3rd year. Edited September 30, 2019 by Bangarang 1
london_bills Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Bangarang said: You have to know your audience here. There were people here still believing EJ Manuel would win the QB competition for Rex and suddenly be a franchise QB. Yes I remember the EJ Manuel belief. Hyped by Whaley also. I don't want Allen to be good either. I want him to be great. The words 'Grow' and 'Develop' sound like great words, like it WILL happen. It may not. Surely the only real test is against good teams. Perhaps one could settle lower for a player who beats the teams he should beat, probably won't win a championship like that though. 1
jrober38 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bangarang said: You have to know your audience here. There were people here still believing EJ Manuel would win the QB competition for Rex and suddenly be a franchise QB. People here usually refuse to look at things objectively. It's all emotional hope that what you see with your own eyes will get better, and it's not as bad as it seems. People are projecting what they want to be reality. They want to think Allen knows he's often making stupid decisions with the ball, and although he's shown minimal proof that he learns anything from his mistakes, they're convinced the light will go off any game now and he'll just start taking care of the football. Reality is that the guys in Allen's camp who post a QB rating of below 70 through 16 games (I know he's a game short) very rarely go onto become franchise QBs in the NFL. There are a few outliers (Eli, Stafford, Goff), but they were all #1 overall picks who went to horrible teams. Allen's situation is different. Most successful QBs were highly successful as soon as they got on the field. Anyways, Allen does some things well, and some things poorly. As I've said since before we picked him, I'm not sure the good will ever be enough to outweigh the bad, but hopefully I'm wrong. The rest of this team is awesome and we should be competing for the Super Bowl right now. Edited September 30, 2019 by jrober38 1
GunnerBill Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Thays fine but here's backups I unquestionably would take over him Eli manning , Teddy Bridgewater, Ryan Tannehill, Chase Daniels, Brian Hoyer, Blake Bortles, Fitzpatrick, Foles/minshaw, Matt Moore, Jarrett stidham He isn't bottom 5 but definitely not top 5 I am scrubbing Tannehill (I know I am out on a limb on him but he is suckiest of all sucks) and Matt Moore (think he is done) from your list but I am adding Tyrod Taylor, Kyle Allen and Case Keenum (who it would appear is now the backup) and based only on pre-season Ryan Finley would be close too. Barkley is about halfway in the NFL backups list.
oldmanfan Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Most guys who are currently considered established franchise QBs in the NFL right now were good as soon as they got on the field. Brees has 17 TDS and 16 picks his first full season. Goff suffered his rookie year. Should I go on?
Phil The Thrill Posted September 30, 2019 Author Posted September 30, 2019 1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said: It looks like my scenario will work itself out anyway. Allen won't play Sunday, my gut tells me. Benching him, sitting him, concussion protocol, all adds up the same. He won't be back til the Miami game. Your gut is wrong. Time for more fiber or maybe some Pepto
Buffalo716 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 Just now, GunnerBill said: I am scrubbing Tannehill (I know I am out on a limb on him but he is suckiest of all sucks) and Matt Moore (think he is done) from your list but I am adding Tyrod Taylor, Kyle Allen and Case Keenum (who it would appear is now the backup) and based only on pre-season Ryan Finley would be close too. Barkley is about halfway in the NFL backups list. I thought I had TT on my list... Definitely add him Case keenum definitely if he counts and Kyle Allen getting there for sure
jrober38 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: Brees has 17 TDS and 16 picks his first full season. Goff suffered his rookie year. Should I go on? "Most" was the key word in my previous post. Eli (horrible for about 4 years), Stafford, Goff and I guess Brees although he was a 2nd round pick didn't start great immediately. They were also all drafted by the worst team in the NFL and went to horrible football teams.
BTC Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 How come nobody has stated the obvious that the Pats D confused Allen yet Daboll decided to go empty sets or with Yeldon vs continuing to feed Gore who had 88 yards at the half?? Run the damn ball and let our defense win. It’s really that easy people. Minus the turnovers and running the ball we win that game easily. 1
CincyBillsFan Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 hours ago, dakrider said: Brady's completion % in the game ended up same as Allen's. And it was Brady who threw the endzone int. Also Brady was not sacked at all and got lucky on 2 throws that should have been called grounding. Biggest difference is Brady threw some passes away whereas Josh tried to force them in. Allen did have a bad game, and if he had a great game Bills likely would have won. I think though it would have still taken more than if Allen had just shown up and made a few passes and handed the ball off. I think the last QB to have a great game against the Patriots was the middle of last year. Whats really amazing is how so many Bills fans seem to think Allen should come out every game and play great every quarter he's on the field. Which seems odd considering they haven't really had many if any good QB's in last 20 years or so and Bills receiving corp is still considered to be in the lower 1/3 of the NFL. Simple thought exercise: Let's take Brady's game stats & give them to Allen and give Allen's to Brady: * First if you told me before the game that Allen would attempt 36 passes and complete less then half of them for 150 yards, NO TD's (rushing or passing); have multiple 3 & outs; and throw an INT in the Pat's end zone to kill a drive I would have thought we lose the game 27 - 3. * Now, back to the exercise. Give Brady Allen's stats and IMO the Pats still win. NONE of Allen's 3 INT's gave NE the ball in our Red Zone or took away a Bills red zone opportunity. So instead of going 3 & out and punting & giving the Bills the ball at their own 40, Brady, throwing Allen's INT's, would have given the Bills the ball at midfield. Somehow I think the Pat's D could handle it. So lets say the Bill's get a FG or two off the 3 INT's. * And with Allen channeling Brady he would have thrown a red zone INT like Brady did so you could take that Bills TD off the board. * IMO switching the passing numbers means that Bills probably lose the game 16 - 6 or maybe 16 - 9. Now if you switch the punters stats giving the Bill's the Pat's guys numbers and vice versa what do you think the final score of the game is? I'm not saying Allen didn't have a bad day - he did. What I am saying is that Allen DID NOT lose us the game. IMO the blocked punt for a TD cost us the game. Not all INT's are the same. An overly aggressive throw downfield that gives your opponent the ball at midfield is NOT the same as a PICK 6! And a bad decision that results in an INT at midfield is NOT the same as throwing an INT in your opponents red zone.
Phil The Thrill Posted September 30, 2019 Author Posted September 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, london_bills said: Yes I remember the EJ Manuel belief. Hyped by Whaley also. I don't want Allen to be good either. I want him to be great. The words 'Grow' and 'Develop' sound like great words, like it WILL happen. It may not. Surely the only real test is against good teams. Perhaps one could settle lower for a player who beats the teams he should beat, probably won't win a championship like that though. This is exactly my concern. There’s no guarantee that it WILL happen. I need to see more 3 TD games and not 3 INT games before I feel more confident about it 2
Scott7975 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: How do you explain the success of a player like Daniel Jones? In just a few starts, he is elevating the entire offense. How much time should we give Allen? 5 years? 6 years? If he’s any good we should see progress soon. And “progress” was not what we saw yesterday No tape and easy game plan designed to be simple to run for him. We have players saying its the most complicated offense they have been in. Maybe that is part of the problem? Rookies that do well usually have coaches that make things easy for them. That does not sound like what is happening on our team. Also Jones threw 1 TD and 2 INTs against Washington this week. The week before he had two fumbles and was sacked 5 times. You know... the things people are criticizing Alan for. Maybe Jones turns out to be awesome. I don't know. Just like Allan, it's too early to say. 1
GunnerBill Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Brees has 17 TDS and 16 picks his first full season. Goff suffered his rookie year. Should I go on? Those Brees numbers still outstrip Allen. I don't think he is a particularly strong argument. And I think the game has changed too. To be honest Stafford would pretty much be my starting point. Anything further back I'd be tempted to discount. 2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: Simple thought exercise: Let's take Brady's game stats & give them to Allen and give Allen's to Brady: * First if you told me before the game that Allen would attempt 36 passes and complete less then half of them for 150 yards, NO TD's (rushing or passing); have multiple 3 & outs; and throw an INT in the Pat's end zone to kill a drive I would have thought we lose the game 27 - 3. * Now, back to the exercise. Give Brady Allen's stats and IMO the Pats still win. NONE of Allen's 3 INT's gave NE the ball in our Red Zone or took away a Bills red zone opportunity. So instead of going 3 & out and punting & giving the Bills the ball at their own 40, Brady, throwing Allen's INT's, would have given the Bills the ball at midfield. Somehow I think the Pat's D could handle it. So lets say the Bill's get a FG or two off the 3 INT's. * And with Allen channeling Brady he would have thrown a red zone INT like Brady did so you could take that Bills TD off the board. * IMO switching the passing numbers means that Bills probably lose the game 16 - 6 or maybe 16 - 9. Now if you switch the punters stats giving the Bill's the Pat's guys numbers and vice versa what do you think the final score of the game is? I'm not saying Allen didn't have a bad day - he did. What I am saying is that Allen DID NOT lose us the game. IMO the blocked punt for a TD cost us the game. Not all INT's are the same. An overly aggressive throw downfield that gives your opponent the ball at midfield is NOT the same as a PICK 6! And a bad decision that results in an INT at midfield is NOT the same as throwing an INT in your opponents red zone. What about the two sacks that took points off the board?
John from Riverside Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: My eyes and using my football knowledge. He is not anywhere close to an elite backup, he has a negative TD to INT ratio throughout his career and doesn't give you any improv skills. He throws 3 routes well So he is extremely limited There are 64 QBs who are top 2 on Depth chart's. He isn't top 40. Closer to 50 I actually disagree with this....totally ok with Matt as backup. He isnt as Mobile he does throw with much more anticipation at this point he makes up for physical limitations with smarts A backup QB.....good for about 3 games a year.
Scott7975 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Those Brees numbers still outstrip Allen. I don't think he is a particularly strong argument. And I think the game has changed too. To be honest Stafford would pretty much be my starting point. Anything further back I'd be tempted to discount. What about the two sacks that took points off the board? Can we get Megatron instead of Zay Jones? Obviously Stafford is a very good QB, but he has had a star for most of his career to throw to.
CincyBillsFan Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: What about the two sacks that took points off the board? One of those sacks still gave us a chance to kick a 49 yard FG. That was a bad miss IMO in perfect weather conditions. I see 50 yard kicks being made all the time in the NFL. Again Special Teams play yesterday had more to do with the loss then Allen's poor play. But yea, you can get the game score to change a bit depending on how you move the plays around but I see NO scenario where if you switch the numbers between Brady & Allen the Pat's still don't win the game. And that's because in a very close defensive game like yesterday giving up a Special Team TD is almost always fatal. Even more fatal then throwing 3 INT's that give your opponent the ball around midfield. Edited September 30, 2019 by CincyBillsFan
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Heitz said: I had some friends yesterday that said Josh had a lot of time in the pocket yesterday. Did we watch the same game? The online is better than last year, but still struggling at times... And anyone that's giving up on a QB 4 games into his second season needs some perspective on achieving results. Rome was not build in a day, kids. He did have a fair amount of snaps where he had time - we also were struggling to shake man coverage, especially during the sacks.
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