Make the trade for Stephon Diggs

[whatdrought]

Hasn’t the NFL learned it’s lesson about WR’s trying to force their way out of good/decent teams for little to no real reason?

[Alphadawg7]

33 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was erratic in college?? Not so. In his final year, he had a 66 percent completion rate, averaged 9.2 ypa, a 41/10 TD/INT ratio, 12 rushing TDs (53 total in only 12 games), and over 5000 passing yards. He was AMAZING his final season in college - no ifs, ands, or buts. The issue was the team's defense. The Texas Tech defense that season was ranked 128th out of 128 total teams, and they lost games by scores of 68-55, 66-59, 45-44, 44-38, and 45-37. 

 

The big knock on Mahomes was if his mechanics could translate to the NFL or would they need to be rebuilt to have NFL success.  He was in an air raid offense, played with a street ball mentality and had questions regarding his mechanics.  This is why he was a polarizing prospect where a lot of people disagreed on where he should be drafted ranging from top 10 to 2nd round.  

 

He was far from a slam dunk obvious pick, potential was always high with him, but he had plenty of risk to go along with that potential.  Hard to fault us for not drafting him, not like he was graded as a Luck type prospect leading into the draft.  For those who may have forgotten some perspective of draft night:

• We had a GM that was about to be out the door.
• We were coming off a season where the offense was 3rd in TD's behind only the Saints and Falcons in the 15 games TT played and averaging 26 points a game in those 15 starts.
• Our defense finished in the high teens, HOWEVER...we got a gimme fluke shoutout against the Pats who were without Brady, Jimmy G, and Gronk in week 4...if you remove that anomaly, in the other 15 games we were 26th in points per game allowed at 25 ppg.  And if Brady had played week 4, he likely puts up at least 30 on us like he did a few weeks later and that would have dropped us to 28th.  Our defense was atrocious.
• We had a rookie HC who was a defensive mind with defense being our worst unit on the field by a lot.  
• We had a mobile QB who our new HC had not yet worked with who just led the Bills to the highest 2 year scoring period in team history outside the first 3 SB years and also just made 2 straight Pro Bowls in his only 2 years as a starter.  It was clear he was limited as a pure passer, but we were still moving the ball and scoring with him at QB.
• The next years crop of college QB's was already being talked about as being one of the best in years.

Pretty hard to fault that years regime for taking an extra first round pick and a defensive player (whose been excellent for us) under those circumstances.  Its very easy to do it now, but on draft night, their decision wasn't really a bad one.  Sometimes those decisions work out, and sometimes they don't.  End of the day, the trade still worked out quite well for us as we still got a promising QB in Allen but also still landed Tre and Edmunds for our defense because of the trade down and the extra first rounder.  

Edited October 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Aussie Joe]

Is the “They should have picked Mahomes” debate going to continue his entire career?

 

 

 

 

[thenorthremembers]

40 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I watched him a few times. He did have a great senior year but stats didn’t tell the story. That was the knock on him. He was erratic. He was wild. His streetball game wouldn’t translate. I didn’t just mean his passing was erratic and that’s probably my bad. His game was erratic. He would have been way higher rated if he wasn’t. 

Watched him very closely that year.   He seemed like a system air raid quarterback.  His footwork was God awful and he didnt seem like the type of player who would translate to the NFL.  I loved Watson coming out, and hated Mahomes.  I was, way way off.

[dave mcbride]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

The big knock on Mahomes was if his mechanics could translate to the NFL or would they need to be rebuilt to have NFL success.  He was in an air raid offense, played with a street ball mentality and had questions regarding his mechanics.  This is why he was a polarizing prospect where a lot of people disagreed on where he should be drafted ranging from top 10 to 2nd round.  

 

He was far from a slam dunk obvious pick, potential was always high with him, but he had plenty of risk to go along with that potential.  Hard to fault us for not drafting him, not like he was graded as a Luck type prospect leading into the draft.  For those who may have forgotten some perspective of draft night:

• We had a GM that was about to be out the door.
• We were coming off a season where the offense was 3rd in TD's behind only the Saints and Falcons in the 15 games TT played and averaging 26 points a game in those 15 starts.
• Our defense finished in the high teens, HOWEVER...we got a gimme fluke shoutout against the Pats who were without Brady, Jimmy G, and Gronk in week 4...if you remove that anomaly, in the other 15 games we were 26th in points per game allowed at 25 ppg.  And if Brady had played week 4, he likely puts up at least 30 on us like he did a few weeks later and that would have dropped us to 28th.  Our defense was atrocious.
• We had a rookie HC who was a defensive mind with defense being our worst unit on the field by a lot.  
• We had a mobile QB who our new HC had not yet worked with who just led the Bills to the highest 2 year scoring period in team history outside the first 3 SB years and also just made 2 straight Pro Bowls in his only 2 years as a starter.  It was clear he was limited as a pure passer, but we were still moving the ball and scoring with him at QB.
• The next years crop of college QB's was already being talked about as being one of the best in years.

Pretty hard to fault that years regime for taking an extra first round pick and a defensive player (whose been excellent for us) under those circumstances.  Its very easy to do it now, but on draft night, their decision wasn't really a bad one.  Sometimes those decisions work out, and sometimes they don't.  End of the day, the trade still worked out quite well for us as we still got a promising QB in Allen but also still landed Tre and Edmunds for our defense because of the trade down and the extra first rounder.  

I am not faulting anyone - just challenging the idea he was "erratic" in college after a legendarily great final year at Texas Tech. 

50 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I watched him a few times. He did have a great senior year but stats didn’t tell the story. That was the knock on him. He was erratic. He was wild. His streetball game wouldn’t translate. I didn’t just mean his passing was erratic and that’s probably my bad. His game was erratic. He would have been way higher rated if he wasn’t. 

I think the massive miss on him by everyone not named Andy Reid or Sean Payton (who really wanted him too) because they treated the "streetball" aspect of his game as a negative has completely changed the scouting QBs forever. QBs who can play point guard/shortstop behind center are the guys who are ripping up the league now, and frankly they're more fun to watch. Mahomes and Russell Wilson are the two best QBs in the league right now, and Murray looks pretty good so far, all things considered (ie., surrounded by a terrible team). I love watching Wilson play.  

 

Anyway, keep in mind that two good organizations - the Saints and the Chiefs - DID have Mahomes very highly rated. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I am not faulting anyone - just challenging the idea he was "erratic" in college after a legendarily great final year at Texas Tech. 

 

Oh yeah I know that, I was writing more of a general comment in the discussion which is why I had said "For those who may have forgotten"...just really was another comment unrelated to you.  Sorry if that wasn't clear

 

I had originally replied to you with the first paragraph just supporting what you said and clarifying what the question marks were on Mahomes and that it was really about his college system and his mechanics that had divided people on him.  Statistically he had a big year and wasn't eratic.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Oh yeah I know that, I was writing more of a general comment in the discussion which is why I had said "For those who may have forgotten"...just really was another comment unrelated to you.  I had originally replied to you with the first paragraph just kind of clarifying what the question marks were on Mahomes and that it was really about his college system and his mechanics that had divided people on him.  

I think teams are coming around to the fact that that "system" can produce great NFL QBs assuming they have the requisite physical skills. Being forced to play streetball well is great training given how often plays break down at the NFL level. Goff is the opposite - a very good robo qb who struggles when the play breaks down. He's still quite good, mind you, and there's more than one path to success. 

[Kelly the Dog]

15 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I am not faulting anyone - just challenging the idea he was "erratic" in college after a legendarily great final year at Texas Tech. 

I think the massive miss on him by everyone not named Andy Reid or Sean Payton (who really wanted him too) because they treated the "streetball" aspect of his game as a negative has completely changed the scouting QBs forever. QBs who can play point guard/shortstop behind center are the guys who are ripping up the league now, and frankly they're more fun to watch. Mahomes and Russell Wilson are the two best QBs in the league right now, and Murray looks pretty good so far, all things considered (ie., surrounded by a terrible team). I love watching Wilson play.  

 

Anyway, keep in mind that two good organizations - the Saints and the Chiefs - DID have Mahomes very highly rated. 

I love watching Wilson, too, but he was a WAY better prospect than Mahomes. He did everything well except grow. I agree with you about the streetball idea, although Mahomes may be an abberration.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I think teams are coming around to the fact that that "system" can produce great NFL QBs assuming they have the requisite physical skills. Being forced to play streetball well is great training given how often plays break down at the NFL level. Goff is the opposite - a very good robo qb who struggles when the play breaks down. He's still quite good, mind you, and there's more than one path to success. 

 

Yeah I agree with that, but I will add thats more of a recent development based on the success of guys like Mahomes, Watson, Lamar and even Allen for that matter.  They are seeing guys who are unconventional to the traditional QB come in and have success and present new challenges in how to defend them.  Prior to this group, the closest was probably Wilson, but even he is more of a pocket passer with good mechanics.

 

Totally agree on Goff...and the Bears last year were the first to really show the NFL the blueprint for that.  Goff for me seems like a Matt Ryan ceiling type QB.  I don't think he will ever be special, but he will be a pretty good QB for a long time in this league.  But with all the Rams spending, they better not forget about the OL as that could be quite the achilles heal for them with Goff and could be the difference in becoming a SB champ or not.  

[r00tabaga]

I thought this was a Diggs thread?

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I love watching Wilson, too, but he was a WAY better prospect than Mahomes. He did everything well except grow. I agree with you about the streetball idea, although Mahomes may be an abberration.

He was NOT a better prospect than Mahomes! After all, two excellent, winning organizations had him rated as a top 12 pick, and Wilson ended up being a third round pick. Almost by definition, Mahomes was the better prospect. Never forget that there were very smart people in positions of power who absolutely loved Mahomes when he came out.  

5 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

I thought this was a Diggs thread?

We traded for Diggs already and now we're arguing about whether we should turn our focus to trading for Mahomes or Russell Wilson. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was NOT a better prospect than Mahomes! After all, two excellent, winning organizations had him rated as a top 12 pick, and Wilson ended up being a third round pick. Almost by definition, Mahomes was the better prospect. Never forget that there were very smart people in positions of power who absolutely loved Mahomes when he came out.  

We traded for Diggs already and now we're arguing about whether we should turn our focus to trading for Mahomes or Russell Wilson. 

WAY better. Wilson was a better version of what he does now in college. He was better as a senior than RGIII who was said to have one of the best seasons of all time that same year. He did everything textbook, he was just short, his ONLY fault and the only reason he wasn't taken at the very top. You like stats so much. Mahomes averaged 8.5 per attempt, Wilson 10.3. Wilson threw 33 TDs and 4 INTs. Mahomes had a 157 rating and Wilson's was 192. Mahomes completed 67% and Wilson 73%.

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

WAY better. Wilson was a better version of what he does now in college. He was better as a senior than RGIII who was said to have one of the best seasons of all time that same year. He did everything textbook, he was just short, his ONLY fault and the only reason he wasn't taken at the very top. You like stats so much. Mahomes averaged 8.5 per attempt, Wilson 10.3. Wilson threw 33 TDs and 4 INTs. Mahomes had a 157 rating and Wilson's was 192. Mahomes completed 67% and Wilson 73%.

Believe what you want. Check out Texas Tech’s offensive stats plus the number of three star plus recruits they had vs. what Wisconsin had in Wilson’s final year. You may find yourself surprised. For now, I’m going with Reid and Payton over KtD.

Edited October 5, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Virgil]

People on their forum say they’d take a 2nd for him.  
 

Get ‘er done!

 

Then give the Skins their 1st for Trent and call it a day 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Virgil

[r00tabaga]

He's missed several team meetings besides this week. Not a process guy.

I like him but he wouldn't wanna come here anyways. 

 

AJ Green really intrigues me but not sure Cincy moves him. 

[DuckyBoys]

Vikings better move Diggs  Longer they wait and uglier the situation gets the less they will receive in compensation

[Chill]

No Thank you 

[Chandler#81]

5 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Is the “They should have picked Mahomes” debate going to continue his entire career?

 

 

There’s quite the contingent here who vow to continue their campaign. It’s a badge of Honor for the terminally afflicted. But we’re banning bastards every day. I fear Josh has to stay healthy longer than Luck though, before they’re all weeded out.

[LikeIGiveADarn]

2 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

There’s quite the contingent here who vow to continue their campaign. It’s a badge of Honor for the terminally afflicted. But we’re banning bastards every day. I fear Josh has to stay healthy longer than Luck though, before they’re all weeded out.

 

From 2000 to 2005, you would have been crazy to suggest Brady over Manning. 2005 to present? Not so much.

Edited October 5, 2019 by LikeIGiveADarn

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Believe what you want. Check out Texas Tech’s offensive stats plus the number of three star plus recruits they had vs. what Wisconsin had in Wilson’s final year. You may find yourself surprised. For now, I’m going with Reid and Payton over KtD.

I was only talking prospect, which is what we were discussing. Wilson has it all. He has great technique, footwork, ball-handling, running, scrambling, can throw accurately running to either side with tremendous velocity, was smart (learned the Wisconsin offense in two weeks), etc. Virtually everything you want in a prospect he had in spades. Except height. Everyone including the Seahawks thought his height would affect his play in the NFL to some degree, and everyone was obviously wrong. Everything else he has in spades.