The Lineage of Travis Henry...

[MikeH]

They drafted Henry while I was in Mississippi, and Butler left while I was in NC the next year!! I remember things by where i moved to that particular year!

299653[/snapback]

Sorry, but you memory is wrong. TD drafted Henry in 2001.

[LabattBlue]

Sorry, but you memory is wrong. TD drafted Henry in 2001.

299658[/snapback]

Butler came to Buffalo as the Bills Director of College Scouting in 1987, a position he held until being elevated to Director of Player Personnel two years later. He then served as the team's Executive Vice President-General Manager from 1993-2000.

 

He had been the Executive Vice President-General Manager of the San Diego Chargers since 2001.

[Mickey]

Let's take a look at how and why Travis Henry has been so critical to the success of this team and how Tom Donahoe mastered this process...

 

(1) 2001.  Bills hold the 14th pick.  Fans are screaming for him to take Kenyatta Walker, the offensive lineman from Florida State.  TD trades down ~6 spots, picks up an additional 2nd round pick.  In the 21st position, he then selects Nate Clements, CB, Ohio State, a future Pro Bowler.  With the additional pick in the 2nd round, TD selects Travis Henry, RB, Tennessee, a future Pro Bowler.

 

(2) 2003.  In a move of sheer genius, TD tags Peerless Price, and then works out a deal with Atlanta for their pick in the 1st round (23rd pick).  Fans get frustrated while they watch two defensive ends (a need area for the team) get drafted --> Michael Haynes, Penn State gets drafted by Chicago, then Jerome McDougle, Miami gets drafted by Philadelphia.  Ok, Bills fans cross their fingers and now have their sights set on Jeff Faine, C, Notre Dame, but Cleveland takes him at the 21st spot.  In a surprising move, TD draft Willis McGahee, RB, Miami...and the entire draft is turned on its head!  And by the way, TD selects Chris Kelsay, DE, Nebraska in the 2nd round...a prospect that many had as a 1st round talent.

 

(3) 2004.  Given McGahee's explosion onto the scene, the Bills take off a great 2nd half of the season run...thereby making Travis Henry expendable.

 

(4) 2005.  TD will shipping Travis Henry in a trade for a solid (albeit, not great) offensive lineman and a move up in the 2nd round.

 

So, what does this tell us?  Look at what TD turned into gold by simply sliding down half-a-dozen spots in the 1st round of the 2001 draft!!!  Freakin' beautiful!

 

Now, here is the point of all of this...some of you have been posting of TD moving further up.  I think TD will actually TRADE DOWN from pick #44 (the Cardinals draft position in the 2nd round that we are rumored to be getting in exchange for the #55 pick) and pick up more picks.  For example, by sliding down from 44 to 50, TD should be able to pick up an additional 4th round pick in that scenario.  This can be determined by the value chart (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/8358748) posted by Gil Brandt on NFL.com.  Depending on how far he is willing to trade down, he could turn it into an additional 3rd round pick.

 

Up until a few days ago, I was not very excited about the draft.  If this TD trade goes through and we are able to swap picks with Arizona in the 2nd round, it is going to be fun to watch TD work his magic!  2 weeks, baby!  2 weeks!

299221[/snapback]

Tagging Price was hardly genius, it was a move predicted here on this board long before it happened and with all due respect to the dedicated fans on this site, we are not exactly a Mensa Chapter.

 

Drafting Kelsay might look a lot smarter if he hadn't already traded up to take Denney, a pick so lame that it required us to pick another RDE in Kelsay. Besides, the jury is still out on Kelsay as an every down starter. He had an encouraging year last year but the league is littered with the lost careers of guys who looked good in spot duty.

 

I think our second half of the season resurgence was due more to the vagaries of the schedule than McGahee. Willis is a fine back, no question but we will never know what the fortunes of the team might have been had we picked to improve the awful line we have rather than pick a great back to eventually replace a very good back. I don't know how much credit to give TD for picking Travis who you refer to as "a future pro bowler". If he is that good, didn't we waste a pick on McGahee? If he is not that good thus justifying the McGahee pick, then maybe we would have been better off getting a lineman with that pick instead of Travis. You can't have it both ways.

 

A "genius" makes the play offs in 3 years, he has had 4 and still no results. He has made some good moves and some that weren't so good. All in all, the results on the field have been medicore at best so although I am not calling for his head, I am not willing to christen him a genius. Not by a long shot.

[Joe]

For all this genius talk you would have figured that the teams he has assembled would have made the playoffs at least once under his watch.

[Pete]

The Dayton Daily News reports that the Cardinals are looking to move up in the draft to snatch a running back and may be interested in Cleveland's No. 3 overall pick. Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams, both from Auburn, are two players slated to be available to the Cards in that slot-

 

Are the Cards gonna cut Shelton regardless? It seems the only team that wants him is us and that the Cards dont have Shelton in their plans.

[BADOLBILZ]

So, what does this tell us?  Look at what TD turned into gold by simply sliding down half-a-dozen spots in the 1st round of the 2001 draft!!!  Freakin' beautiful!

 

299221[/snapback]

 

The Peerless trade had nothing to do with the trade that netted Henry. Having Clements and Henry didn't make Price expendable. Two separate transactions. The Peerless trade netted McGahee, but it also necessitated the use of a first round pick on Lee Evans. Drew Bledsoe flamed out, necessitating the drafting of JP Losman and as a result, the Bills have expended 2 first rounders in the past 4 years on QB's. All in all, TD's work has been pretty average and the team he runs has been pretty average the past 4 years.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

TD has a nice job, but I agree with one of the early posters on this thread who stated that we have failed to make the playoffs. Conversly, and not to bring up old badness, if you will, but John Butler and AJ Smith have built a dynasty in San Diego. Now, while the knee-jerk reaction is to say that “they had high picks,” they also have built their team’s core with solid 2nds, 3rd and later round lineman. Also, we had the 4th pick, and tons of extra picks from the fire sale for the guys TD cut bait with (Wade Phillips old scubs(Newman, et al.)). Look at these drafts by Butler and Adams:

2001 – L.T. and Breese, ) 02 – Jammer, Fonoti, Caldwall, Leber, 03, Sammy Davis, 04 rivers, Olshansky, Keeding, Oliva, Hardwick. Plus they have added amazing depth with some of their other draft picks and don’t forget finds like: Eric Parker, A. Gates, Willaims and Dingle. They have amazing depth and will be around for years and years to come. Especially if they deal Phillips to San Fran for the #1 overall.

[jad1]

The Peerless trade had nothing to do with the trade that netted Henry.  Having Clements and Henry didn't make Price expendable.  Two separate transactions.  The Peerless trade netted McGahee, but it also necessitated the use of a first round pick on Lee Evans.  Drew Bledsoe flamed out, necessitating the drafting of JP Losman and as a result, the Bills have expended 2 first rounders in the past 4 years on QB's.   All in all, TD's work has been pretty average and the team he runs has been pretty average the past 4 years.

299859[/snapback]

 

Agreed that the Peerless, Henry, and Clemments moves were unrelated.

 

Dumping Price was the right move, as evidenced by his performance in Atl. Bottom line is that Price is not a #1 WR, and it would have been a huge mistake to pay him like one.

 

Evans looks to have more upside, and looks like he can move into the #1 WR position in a couple of years.

 

And while Bledsoe flamed out, it was accepted that the Bills would have to draft his successor sometime soon, due to Bledsoe's age. The plan was to keep Bledsoe for a couple of more years while Losman matured, so drafting JP was not necessarily forced on Donahoe. Rather, Losman was forced into the lineup sooner than expected.

 

I would argue, due to the roster purge that was needed to fix the salary cap, the Bills have been a very bad team that has gotten better over the past 4 years. In other words, they are in the middle of a successful rebuilding program.

[BuckeyeBill]

Very good post. I don't think that TD has made many mistakes at all in evaluating player talent. I can't say the same about evaluating coaches (GW and Killdrive come to mind).

 

If you were to grade TD at his job of drafting well, manipulating the draft to help us; attracting the right free agents; cutting (or not overpaying) the players who really did need to move on... he deserves the grade of A+.

 

As for evaluating coaches... C- for the first round... and too early to grade the second round.

 

So many people say that TD is not getting players who can win championships. That's not the case. I think that with effective coaching, we could have won a championship... look what happened last year.

 

We would have been in the playoffs... and one of the hottest teams in the playoffs if Lindell knew how to kick and Bledsoe didn't panic when things went badly.

 

This post just aids and confirms the grade of A+ for player evaluation that I have given TD.

[jad1]

TD has a nice job, but I agree with one of the early posters on this thread who stated that we have failed to make the playoffs.  Conversly, and not to bring up old badness, if you will, but John Butler and AJ Smith have built a dynasty in San Diego.  Now, while the knee-jerk reaction is to say that “they had high picks,” they also have built their team’s core with solid 2nds, 3rd and later round lineman.  Also, we had the 4th pick, and tons of extra picks from the fire sale for the guys TD cut bait with (Wade Phillips old scubs(Newman, et al.)).  Look at these drafts by Butler and Adams:

  2001 –  L.T. and Breese, ) 02 – Jammer, Fonoti, Caldwall, Leber, 03, Sammy Davis, 04 rivers, Olshansky, Keeding, Oliva, Hardwick.  Plus they have added amazing depth with some of their other draft picks and don’t forget finds like:  Eric Parker, A. Gates, Willaims and Dingle.  They have amazing depth and will be around for years and years to come.  Especially if they deal Phillips to San Fran for the #1 overall.

299899[/snapback]

 

After 10 straight years of losing, the Chargers have managed one good season. Hardly a dynasty. And they might have screwed it up if Rivers reported on time to camp.

 

They do have good young talent, but they play in a weak division. Their home loss to the Jets in the playoffs makes you wonder how successful they would have been in the AFC East.

 

Donahoe has also assembled some good young talent, as evidenced by the special teams unit he's built. And while we bash the O-line, the Bills have still managed to have a 1,000 rusher the last 3 years. An he's done a better job at bettering the team through free agency than SD has.

[BuckeyeBill]

Meanwhile, it's four seasons later and still no playoff appearances, much less championships.

Not that I disagree with you or anything....

299249[/snapback]

Like I said before, coaching not players decided that fate.

[ROSCOE P. COE TRAIN]

they have all the makings for a dynasty. they are stacked with the young top blue chip = PROVEN now and experienced = talent in the league at all positions (CB< QB< TE< PK< OL< RB< OLB). LT, Breese, Gates and Jammer are names enough. then you look at their depth (i.e, look at their defensive line).

 

BTW, any team can rush for 1, 000 yards. 1,000 was a majical number about 15 years ago. that is nothing now. back are after 2,000 total yards. not saying that the bills dont have a good OL. but look at sacks also, and pressures, and batted down passes and the respect teams are giving them with 8 or 9 guys in the box on 1st and 2nd down plays. those are the hallmarks of a good team and good OL. NOT 1,000 yards, like it used to be back in the late 1980s (i.e., george rogers).

 

TD has done a nice job in rounding the roster off and giving us a chance with the talent. but SD has diffence makers and that was evident in the games in 2004 where they blew people out and scored 40 points here and there and had PRO bowlers galor. put it this way, if the bills played SD - they would lose by at least 15.

 

 

 

 

 

After 10 straight years of losing, the Chargers have managed one good season.  Hardly a dynasty.  And they might have screwed it up if Rivers reported on time to camp.

 

They do have good young talent, but they play in a weak division.  Their home loss to the Jets in the playoffs makes you wonder how successful they would have been in the AFC East.

 

Donahoe has also assembled some good young talent, as evidenced by the special teams unit he's built.  And while we bash the O-line, the Bills have still managed to have a 1,000 rusher the last 3 years.  An he's done a better job at bettering the team through free agency than SD has.

299991[/snapback]

[brihs2005]

An interview with Polian a while back in one of the Indy papers (may have been on ESPN.com too) talked about what it takes to be successful as a GM. He said you can't expect to shoot 100% in the draft, free agency, trades, etc. He did say that a good GM will shoot about 52%, and that the teams you see competitng for a super bowl every year (Pats, Eagles) are shooting around 55%.

[jad1]

they have all the makings for a dynasty.  they are stacked with the young top blue chip = PROVEN now and experienced = talent in the league at all positions (CB< QB< TE< PK< OL< RB< OLB).  LT, Breese, Gates and Jammer are names enough.  then you look at their depth (i.e, look at their defensive line). 

 

BTW, any team can rush for 1, 000 yards.  1,000 was a majical number about 15 years ago.  that is nothing now.  back are after 2,000 total yards.  not saying that the bills dont have a good OL.  but look at sacks also, and pressures, and batted down passes and the respect teams are giving them with 8 or 9 guys in the box on 1st and 2nd down plays.  those are the hallmarks of a good team and good OL.  NOT 1,000 yards, like it used to be back in the late 1980s (i.e., george rogers). 

 

TD has done a nice job in rounding the roster off and giving us a chance with the talent.  but SD has diffence makers and that was evident in the games in 2004 where they blew people out and scored 40 points here and there and had PRO bowlers galor.  put it this way, if the bills played SD - they would lose by at least 15.

300020[/snapback]

 

No doubt SD opened some eyes this year, but most people had them slotted for last place in their division at the beginning of last season. Hardly the sign of "proven" young talent.

 

Plus they have a coach who can't win in the playoffs. I like what they're doing, but they have a lot to prove.

 

And while 1,000 yards is not a big deal, I believe 13,000 and 14,000 yard seasons are. And averaging 100 yards per start, as McGahee did last year, is impressive.

 

The O-line has deserved some criticism over the last few years, but they were playing in front of a QB that could not cover for their mistakes. One misread or one missed block pretty much meant the play was doomed.

 

That's why teams loaded up the box, because they knew Bledsoe was a sitting duck. And despite the loaded fronts, the RBs still made progress.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Bills trade for Shelton and a draft a G/C in the second round. But I wouldn't be ready to give up the season if this didn't happen.

[Bill from NYC]

>>>>>Let's take a look at how and why Travis Henry has been so critical to the success of this team<<<<<

 

If you consider the 0-4 start a "success," right on!

Travis, who gave us 2 years of good running stats and a poor performance at every other phase of football, has been a dismal failure.

 

Now, TD has one seemingly reluctant trading partner, who is willing to give us a LT that he cannot wait to unload. TD is right to want more. He will look silly if Shelton winds up not making the roster, as AKC suggested. As unlikely as this may seem, take notice of the fact that Jennings was scooped up in seconds for a huge price, and Shelton seems to attract barely a nibble. Odd for a quality LT, wouldn't you say?

 

The team has a FAR worse record with TH as a starter than the ever hated Drew Bledsoe, but dont let this stop you from cannonizing this underskilled misfit. We as Bills fans make a huge issue over this trade but from another angle, it looks like an insignifigant deal for two also-rans.

[jad1]

>>>>>Let's take a look at how and why Travis Henry has been so critical to the success of this team<<<<<

 

If you consider the 0-4 start a "success," right on!

Travis, other than 2 years of good running stats and a poor performance at every other phase of football, has been a dismal failure.

 

Now, TD has one seemingly reluctant trading partner, who is willing to give us a LT that he cannot wait to unload. TD is right to want more. He will look silly if Shelton winds up not making the roster, as AKC suggested. As unlikely as this may seem, take notice of the fact that Jennings was scooped up in seconds for a huge price, and Shelton seems to attract barely a nibble. Odd for a quality LT, wouldn't you say?

 

The team has a FAR worse record with TH as a starter than the ever hated Drew Bledsoe, but dont let this stop you from cannonizing this underskilled misfit. We as Bills fans make a huge issue over this trade but from another angle, it looks like an insignifigant deal for two also-rans.

300040[/snapback]

 

To me, Henry is a classic 2nd round running back. He's a strong straight ahead runner (something that he was very successful at doing with the Bills), but lacked break-away speed, blocking skills, and was a below average receiver.

 

Basically the Bills got their return on him, but there was room for the team to improve the position, and they did with McGahee.

 

Jennings got more responses because he was a FA. Teams have to beat the offer of Henry to get into the Shelton bidding, and teams with a need at LT can't beat that offer.

 

The Cardinals need to decide if the want a top rated CB and Henry, or do they want Cedric Benson and a 2nd round CB.

 

If they don't trade, they'll end up dumping Shelton for nothing, due to salary. At that point, interest in him will pick up.

[Ron C.]

On the whole, I think TD has done an excellent job wheeling and dealing on draft day. Some things I wish he had done differently (not hindsight since I was advocating these moves before the fact):

 

1. I don't criticize TD for giving up a #1 for Bledsoe. What I do take issue with is extending his contract and taking the big cap hit now. Remember, this was done after 1 1/2 seasons of questionable play. He should have not given the 7M spring bonus(which was obviously not given when the new contract was negotiated) and let DB play out the year. We could have let Drew walk this year and saved a lot in dead cap money.

 

2. Why wasn't Winfield at least transition tagged? Given the market, we could have played the jets against the Vikings against others for at least a 3rd round pick or more. The tag could have been removed at any time and the likelihood that AW would have signed the tender with no upfront bonus money was slim to none. Again, a no lose scenario.

 

Again, on the whole TD has done a good job. But every time I see the Bledsoe dead cap number, I wonder if that $$ couldn't have been used to keep Pat Williams or extend Clements.

[obie_wan]

More like another mid-round that will end up on special teams.  But the Bills special teams suck, right?  Building the best special teams unit in the league is a real waste of mid-round picks. 

299606[/snapback]

 

Nice try - but your theory is not grounded in fact.

 

 

Good teams find diamonds in the rough after the 2nd round that actually contribute on offense and defense. TD has only been minimally successful in this regard and has been forced to spend big money or trade to provide this talent.

 

 

The stellar play of the special teams in 2004 was a direct result of using starters because those mid-round picks that should be the core of your ST were not up to the challenge.

[Kelly the Dog]

Nice try - but your theory is not grounded in fact.

Good teams find diamonds in the rough after the 2nd round that actually contribute on offense and defense. TD has only been minimally successful in this regard and has been forced to spend big money or trade to provide this talent.

The stellar play of the special teams in 2004 was a direct result of using starters because those mid-round picks that should be the core of your ST were not up to the challenge.

300074[/snapback]

Besides London Fletcher, name the 6-7 best special teams players on the Bills last year?

 

I wouldn't count returners either because Clements was out of choice more than necessity, and McGee, the pro bowler, was a mid round pick and back-up who became a starter only due to injury.

[jad1]

Nice try - but your theory is not grounded in fact.

Good teams find diamonds in the rough after the 2nd round that actually contribute on offense and defense. TD has only been minimally successful in this regard and has been forced to spend big money or trade to provide this talent.

The stellar play of the special teams in 2004 was a direct result of using starters because those mid-round picks that should be the core of your ST were not up to the challenge.

300074[/snapback]

 

Nice try -- The starters on special teams is a myth. Aside from Fletcher, Clemments (and McGee), very few starters played on STs. Stammer, Haggin, Wire, Crowell, McGee, Smith, Peters, Dorenboes, and even Moorman were either mid-late round draftees or UDFAs.

 

The success of the special teams was due to the steller play of these players.

 

The reason more mid rounders don't start on this team is because Donahoe has done a good job in the early rounds of the draft and in FA.

 

For example, Crowell or Stammer could be the diamond in the rough you're looking for, but would you start either ahead of Spikes? How about starting Kevin Thomas ahead of Clemments? How about Sam Aiken ahead of Moulds or Evans?

 

And how many GMs could pick mid-rounders to replace Shoebel, Adams, Kelsay, Spikes, Fletcher, Clemments, Milloy, and Vincent in a 4 year period of time?

 

Donahoe's success in the early rounds and in FA have forced most of the mid-rounders onto special teams, and they have contributed to the best special teams unit in the league.