BuffaloHokie13 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 I would not trade Allen for Jackson. I would trade him for Mahomes, Wilson, or Watson. 2 1
jrober38 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said: I would not trade Allen for Jackson. I would trade him for Mahomes, Wilson, or Watson. Thanks for answering.
section122 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, jrober38 said: This is maybe the dumbest thing I've read on this board in a long time. It is a perfect example of the rampant homerism some people have on this board when defending Josh Allen. To suggest that Lamar Jackson, the front runner for MVP, wouldn't be able to replicate what Josh Allen, who is in the bottom 10 of most QB stat categories, is beyond absurd. Lamar Jackson is passing for 206.4 ypg. 1 full yard per game than Josh Allen. Jackson hasn't had to play from behind and the Ravens lean on the run game and strong defense for success (sound familiar). The Ravens are #1 in the league in rush ypg by 55.1 ypg over the next closest team. To put that in perspective they are farther ahead of the #2 team than the #2 team is ahead of the 22nd team (Lions). Lamar is playing lights out this year no doubt but where does he project long term? Why is Josh Allen Blake Bortles but Lamar can't be Colin Kaepernick? Both of these guys have their whole careers in front of them. Both guys took tremendous leaps from year 1 to 2. It will be interesting to see where they go... As for stats... Ryan Tannehill is ahead of Lamar Jackson in almost every category (comp %, ypa, ay/a, y/c, ypg, QB rating, ny/a, any/a, 4th quarter comeback, and game winning drives). So by your "logic" you would take Tannehil over Lamar Jackson right? He is top 5 in a bunch of passing categories and ahead of Lamar in all the ones listed above. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Are there any QBs in the NFL you would trade Allen for? 1) Patrick Mahomes 2) Desean Watson 3) Russ Wilson There are other guys who are better QB right now - Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, arguably Carson Wentz etc - but for various reasons including age and stage of career, injury history, salary and salary expectations, and year-to-year track record, I wouldn't trade. The "buy your way into a great QB" scenario worked for the Broncos once, and may or may not work for the Vikings. It fails far more than it succeeds. 1
CincyBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, jrober38 said: Of course you would think that, BECAUSE YOU'RE A JOSH ALLEN HOMER. You go to extreme lengths to justify Allen doing a good job, even if it means slandering the NFL's offensive MVP this year. The Bills literally use Josh Allen as our goal line running back and have used him on designed QB runs numerous times this season, but we're not playing to his strengths. Gimme a break. You think Josh Allen is a better player than Lamar Jackson. Lunacy. @CincyBillsFan this is what I was talking about yesterday. Weak. I argue with someone who wants to claim Josh Allen is better than the supposed NFL MVP and your response is for me to go cheer for another team? No thanks. Would you trade Josh Allen for Lamar Jackson? Apparently that's a serious question. The question is more nuanced then you make it out to be. Unless I was getting the Ravens O-line, their TE's and RB and of course Greg Roman to design & call plays there is no way in hell I'm trading Allen for Jackson. And I'm not being a homer in saying that nor am I questioning that Jackson is an MVP worthy player this season. IMO if you put Jackson in the Bills offense and asked him to do what we ask Allen to do Jackson would NOT do it as well. Edited December 18, 2019 by CincyBillsFan 1
jrober38 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 Just now, CincyBillsFan said: IMO if you put Jackson in the Bills offense and asked him to do what we ask Allen to do Jackson would NOT do it as well. This is what I don't get. What are we asking Allen to do that Jackson can't do?
PaattMaann Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Are there any QBs in the NFL you would trade Allen for? I'm just trying to wrap my head around your choice. Like if not the NFL MVP, does anyone make the cut? Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson, I dont think Wilson because hes already 31. There are def guys who are way better than Allen but already too old (Rodgers/Brees etc.). But no, not really. There arent many. Im betting on the progress I have seen from Allen and his potential to keep getting better. Tools are there. (Also, I was on the "anyone but Allen" bandwagon in the draft and was devastated we took him. I was wrong) I get that you are really in love with Jackson. He has had an amazing season. But I want my QB to be a QB first, Lamar isnt that. He will succeed in this Ravens offense as long as they employ it, maybe another year before Roman gets a HC job and then you will see major regression (thats what I would bet on). Lamar is passable as a passer, but if you ask him to be a traditional pocket QB and eliminate more than half of his runs, he wouldnt be having an MVP season. I am willing to bet that this season will be Lamar's best in fact from a total yards and TD stand point - maybe next year too, but I dont envision a long shelf life for it. Kind of hope I am wrong though because it is funnnn to watch. IF lamar was on the Bills he wouldnt be MVP, if you think we (or the vast majority of the league) would do what the Ravens are doing with Jackson you misunderstand the NFL.
Dr. Who Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Are there any QBs in the NFL you would trade Allen for? I'm just trying to wrap my head around your choice. Like if not the NFL MVP, does anyone make the cut? It's perfectly reasonable for folks to project out a few years and to conclude that Jackson will not maintain his play level and also that Allen has a high ceiling with a more sustainable mode of play. It might not work out that way, but its not a ridiculous position to take. You're going way out of your way to be obnoxious and to mischaracterize what most on this board say and think. And really, is it just incredible that fans of a particular team who are invested in the development of a young player who is charismatic, likeable, a leader with swagger, yet humble, hard-working, an underdog who has already overcome large odds and often lazy media bias, someone who has embraced the city and who fits in exceedingly well with the ethos and culture of the team would be unwilling to swiftly entertain changing out the somewhat unexpected present success and quite plausible future excellence for the bright shiny flavor of the moment because some fella with a crusading axe to grind insists the qb they have come to care about as emblematic of the new Bills is, in fact, a bottom-tier NFL qb? It's really unnatural to go hypothetically shopping for other qbs. You're like the fella with a nice, good-looking girl who is always glancing around for a hotter alternative. That's the way a heel acts. Bills' fans like Josh Allen and have good reason to think he can become a genuine franchise qb. They want to enjoy the moment, not spoiling the joy of the season with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, how about that qb? What if we had a real qb?
LB3 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Are there any QBs in the NFL you would trade Allen for? I'm just trying to wrap my head around your choice. Like if not the NFL MVP, does anyone make the cut? Russell Wilson is a no brainer. I'd trade for Watson. I'd be worried about his injury history but I'd probably pull the trigger. Mahomes I'd probably trade for as well. I think he's an incredible talent. I would be a little worried how much of his success is due to Reid though. Matt Moore looked great in that scheme and with all that talent.
jrober38 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, PaattMaann said: Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson, I dont think Wilson because hes already 31. There are def guys who are way better than Allen but already too old (Rodgers/Brees etc.). But no, not really. There arent many. Im betting on the progress I have seen from Allen and his potential to keep getting better. Tools are there. (Also, I was on the "anyone but Allen" bandwagon in the draft and was devastated we took him. I was wrong) I get that you are really in love with Jackson. He has had an amazing season. But I want my QB to be a QB first, Lamar isnt that. He will succeed in this Ravens offense as long as they employ it, maybe another year before Roman gets a HC job and then you will see major regression (thats what I would bet on). Lamar is passable as a passer, but if you ask him to be a traditional pocket QB and eliminate more than half of his runs, he wouldnt be having an MVP season. I am willing to bet that this season will be Lamar's best in fact from a total yards and TD stand point - maybe next year too, but I dont envision a long shelf life for it. Kind of hope I am wrong though because it is funnnn to watch. IF lamar was on the Bills he wouldnt be MVP, if you think we (or the vast majority of the league) would do what the Ravens are doing with Jackson you misunderstand the NFL. I'm not a huge Jackson guy. My issue is that Allen still has miles to go before he's a legit franchise QB. That may or may not happen. Knowing how hard it is to find a QB, I'd rather have a guy who I'm pretty sure is a top 10 QB over a guy who needs a lot to go right to ever get to that level. Edited December 18, 2019 by jrober38
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Wow. So if someone offered you Mahomes straight up for Allen you'd say no? I just want to make sure I have this straight. look man. you're wasting your time here. why not go to the ravens board or the chiefs board and mingle with their fans because frankly, you're wearing out your welcome here. big time! 1
CincyBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 1 minute ago, jrober38 said: This is what I don't get. What are we asking Allen to do that Jackson can't do? Be a pocket passer that throws effectively to the outside. Jackson's success at throwing the ball when he drops back into the pocket is a direct result of the Ravens rushing game plan that makes the play action pass deadly. It's a brilliant design and works great for Jackson & the Ravens talent base. But the Ravens offense is very different then Buffalo's. 2 1
Cripple Creek Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 37 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Should I add you to the list? Are you another who wouldn't trade away Josh Allen for Lamar Jackson? You can put me on the list. I won't take away from the season Jackson is having, quite spectacular, but how sustainable? I have sustainability questions about Allen but for Jackson they are through the roof. 1
Pokebball Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Wake up man. 2 years into Brady's career you'd have traded him for Favre...and you'd have been proven an idiot for doing so. When you've got a kid that looks like he can win long-term, you don't trade him away, you build around him. That you miss the forest for the trees on every Allen-related discussion is not a surprise. You're waaaaaaaay too invested in being right about him. A bit of friendly advice: let it go. Your evaluation was wrong. You can move on and gain back a lot of credibility if you stop trying so hard to plead your case. So Allen makes the list of alternates. Hmmm. Six on the list and six alternates. Other's believe Allen is top 20. Or hell, top 12.
PaattMaann Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I'm not a huge Jackson guy. My issue is that Allen still has miles to go before he's a legit franchise QB. That may or may not happen. Knowing how hard it is to find a QB, I'd rather have a guy who I'm pretty sure is a top 10 QB over a guy who needs a lot to go right to ever get to that level. I know Jackson is a top 5 QB in his current offense. I dont think he would be in another offense (back to my Peyton VS Brady comp). Im not willing to take that risk when I KNOW I have a guy who can already do what Allen is doing, and has shown the tools to do everything youd ever want from your franchise QB. I disagree he needs "a lot to go right to ever get to that level". I think we see that level next year to be honest.
Teddy KGB Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jrober38 said: My issue is that Allen still has miles to go before he's a legit franchise QB. How does he score so many touchdowns ? Why did he clinch a playoff berth already ? “LeGiT NfL Qb” Edited December 18, 2019 by Teddy KGB
jrober38 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Teddy KGB said: How does he score so many touchdowns ? He's our goal line running back. That helps.
CincyBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I'm not a huge Jackson guy. My issue is that Allen still has miles to go before he's a legit franchise QB. That may or may not happen. Knowing how hard it is to find a QB, I'd rather have a guy who I'm pretty sure is a top 10 QB over a guy who needs a lot to go right to ever get to that level. Are you really sure Jackson will be a perennial top 10 guy? The proof will be next year when defenses have had a chance to catch up with him. Cam Newton had a Jackson like year when Carolina went 15 - 1 and lost the Super Bowl. But defenses caught up and while Newton remained a very good QB he didn't dominate the league again. That may be Jackson's future. We just don't know. As for Allen being a franchise guy? We don't know yet but I like the signs so far. It will take 4 - 5 years before we know for sure. But right now I'm cautiously optimistic that Allen is the guy. 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: The question is more nuanced then you make it out to be. Unless I was getting the Ravens O-line, their TE's and RB and of course Greg Roman to design & call plays there is no way in hell I'm trading Allen for Jackson. And I'm not being a homer in saying that nor am I questioning that Jackson is an MVP worthy player this season. IMO if you put Jackson in the Bills offense and asked him to do what we ask Allen to do Jackson would NOT do it as well. This guy gets it. Exactly. At the very best, it's an open question and with reasonable evidence to argue against. 1
jrober38 Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: You can put me on the list. I won't take away from the season Jackson is having, quite spectacular, but how sustainable? I have sustainability questions about Allen but for Jackson they are through the roof. I view Jackson's playing style as being much more sustainable than Allen's. Jackson rarely receives big hits. He's extremely smart in the way he runs. Allen gets teed up all the time when he runs. When linebackers and safeties see him in the open field, they often go for the kill shot. 3
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