John Brown says Bills offense the most complicated he has played in.

[Shaw66]

The complexity is another thing that McD is doing like Belichick.  McD expects his team to be able to play any style of football, on both sides of the line.  So he has a complex offense that everyone must mast,which demands that the defense must master all aspects of defense to stop any offense.  Year after year they get better at both sides of the ball.  

[TroutDog]

8 hours ago, H2o said:

Yeah, I agree with you two

But their doing so great. Do you like that alot? There a really good team and own they’re responsibilities. 

 

Just wanted to be clear. ? 

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, ctk232 said:

 

That would very much be the majority of it - aside from having more general NFL game experience than Foster and Duke, Daboll and the offensive staff have gone on record saying Zay's use is reflective of him knowing how to play, and having played, all WR positions in this offense. Albeit, to varying quality, but he understands the role he's to play in each position and we value that utility over one-dimensional production. Not to mention, his blocking has come a long way and is starting to remind me of the Robert Woods days - not there yet, but noticeable from his last two seasons.

 

While I don't disagree with you here at all necessarily, I don't think you'll see NE bring all that many odd-man rushes. I'm of course purely speculating here, but if it's known to us it's known to Belly that we don't have consistent play at RT just yet. Assuming Feliciano is out this week, get ready to see Bennett/Van Noy/Hightower/Winovich all loading up that right side when on the field relentlessly regardless of where they play on the line. Hell, I'd even be concerned with Bennett and Winovich/Van Noy lining up against Dawkins as he's still having issues on the left side.

 

As it stands, Belly will likely scheme offset 4 man rushes, and stunts on the right side of the line in particular, that will be able to generate pressure without sacrificing the extra defender in coverage, thereby making Allen's life that much more difficult in finding pass options to beat the rush. Van Noy/Hightower will likely be spying on those rushes as well to keep Josh honest and containing his running ability.

 

The run game will play a big role in this, especially if Singletary isn't able to go, but we'll need to execute quick passing options early and often to dissuade this throughout the game. That said, I have confidence in Daboll to scheme Beasley and Brown open with mesh concepts against man and landmark curls/outs/crosses against zone like we've been doing. I would hope we start to use Knox/TE more as well, just to spread the coverage, and create gaps/mismatches. Pats play a weekly defense so expect them to scheme a base D that forces Allen into quick decisions/throws in coverage with primarily 4 man rushes, but our OL will need to come to play and think. I'm just happy this game is early and on our turf, and with a team that doesn't seem to let early point deficits phase them just yet.

Good stuff.  I don't know the Pats personnel at all really, but I don't think what you're saying is about the people, any way.  Belichick will scheme to have his people beat your weak people, and you have to find a way to beat him another way.  

 

The problem is that on the other side of the ball, you have to find their weakness and beat them atbit.  But Brady always knows what you're likely to do and always has an answer.  

 

Bills might be able to find a way to get 20 points, but they also have to find a way to keep Brady from getting 30.  

[ctk232]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Good stuff.  I don't know the Pats personnel at all really, but I don't think what you're saying is about the people, any way.  Belichick will scheme to have his people beat your weak people, and you have to find a way to beat him another way.  

 

The problem is that on the other side of the ball, you have to find their weakness and beat them atbit.  But Brady always knows what you're likely to do and always has an answer.  

 

Bills might be able to find a way to get 20 points, but they also have to find a way to keep Brady from getting 30.  

Definitely - and I completely agree, it's always a match-up game week in and week out in the NFL and Belly uses it however he can. I called out those specific personnel only as known mismatches given our current issues with the right side of the line in pass pro, likely something he'll exploit. My hope is the "other way" will be established through a run game, and well-balanced pass attack capable of beating the Pats man/zone looks. Something I failed to mention that will be interesting to watch is how well Allen does with dissecting those pre-snap looks - can't stand the guy, but Belly runs the best defensive schemes in the league, often times with whatever guys are left on the roster. It'll be a fun one to watch for sure.

 

If Edmunds can get off his blocks to cover the RBs in the flat/screen game, I think we'll see a much more one-dimensional Brady that our secondary will provide more than a match for if we can generate some pressure up the middle. Just hope we don't feel Harrison's loss too much in that regard either.

[Rocket94]

13 hours ago, wppete said:

John Brown is much better than what we all thought. I thought he was a pure speed guy that takes the top off defenses but he is much more than that. He runs smooth clean routes and he is quick on his breaks. Very smart receiver. So happy we signed him!!! Great job Beane and Co.

Absolutely. All Brown has ever needed in his career was a team to recognize his all around talent. Just needs a place to call home. I think he found it.

[Capco]

From my understanding of the EP offense, it's somewhat geared to making things easier for the quarterback at the line by putting more of the complexity and weight on the rest of the team.  

 

I'm sure it's still complex for the QB on an absolute scale, but I think the above is part of the overall philosophy.  

[MJS]

14 hours ago, wppete said:

John Brown is much better than what we all thought. I thought he was a pure speed guy that takes the top off defenses but he is much more than that. He runs smooth clean routes and he is quick on his breaks. Very smart receiver. So happy we signed him!!! Great job Beane and Co.

Not all of us. I was pretty high on him the first time around when he went to the Ravens, and then again before we signed him this off season. He played really well with the Ravens until they switched QB's and all his targets disappeared. I don't think he is a high end #1, but he's a guy that could be a weapon on most teams.

 

I was surprised by Beasley, though. He's been better than I expected. Does seem like Allen stops looking for him later in games though.

7 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

.... wonder what he defines as "complicated" ......the Deadskins grabbed Al Saunders from KC and he arrived in Washington with an allegedly 700 PAGE PLAYBOOK....and then moving on to da Raiduhs....

 

Al Saunders Is New Raiders OC: Will His 700-Page Playbook Help or Hurt Oakland?

Keff Ciardello  February 4, 2011

 

The Raiders announced (sort of) the hiring of Al Saunders to be the offensive coordinator over a week ago.

 

Saunders got his start in the NFL with the Chargers before moving on to be the assistant head coach and wide receivers coach for the Kansas City Chiefs from 1989 to 1998.

 

He went on to St. Louis in 1999 for the same position before returning to the Chiefs in 2001. From 2002 to 2005, Saunders saw success in Kansas, which allowed him to reach a lucrative deal as the offensive coordinator with the Washington Redskins.

 

Offensive free agents such as Antwaan Randle El and Brandon Lloyd flocked to D.C. to play for Saunders, considering him an offensive genius. However, a slow start by the Skins prompted criticism from the media when it was revealed that Saunders' playbook was reportedly 700 pages long.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/595739-al-saunders-and-the-700-page-playbook

Volume doesn't necessarily equal complexity.

[Manther]

On 9/24/2019 at 12:07 AM, Rocket94 said:

Absolutely. All Brown has ever needed in his career was a team to recognize his all around talent. Just needs a place to call home. I think he found it.

Agreed and he needs to stay healthy.  Arizona used him well for two seasons when he was healthy.  Now Brown is a better player and has an expanded role (from his Arizona days) that he is succeeding at as WR1.  Go Bills!

[HardyBoy]

On 9/24/2019 at 12:46 AM, Capco said:

From my understanding of the EP offense, it's somewhat geared to making things easier for the quarterback at the line by putting more of the complexity and weight on the rest of the team.  

 

I'm sure it's still complex for the QB on an absolute scale, but I think the above is part of the overall philosophy.  

 

Was going to say exactly this. The EP offense requires receivers that know what they are doing, and their responsibilities are based on where they are in the formation.

 

So the far left receiver runs a certain route, but the far left receiver changes as players go in motion. That is one reason they motion so much imo, it's basically an option play by Allen on when he starts the play. Depending on where the motion guy is at the snap changes what the other receivers do.

 

It's structured improvisation on every play. The routes themselves are relatively basic, but can be combined in creative ways, and Allen can read the defense and can choose which receiver he wants to run which route based on mismatches he sees presnap. It's crazy exciting, especially having a qb as smart as Allen running it...very Pats like in a lot of ways.

Edited September 28, 2019 by HardyBoy

[Rocket94]

27 minutes ago, Manther said:

Agreed and he needs to stay healthy.  Arizona used him well for two seasons when he was healthy.  Now Brown is a better player and has an expanded role (from his Arizona days) that he is succeeding at as WR1.  Go Bills!

I hope he stays healthy as well. Some of his health issues were beyond his control. Yeah, he is certainly a better rounded receiver than he was. I remember the Bills coachs commenting on him being more than a one dimensional receiver...he runs good routes...everything.

[HOUSE]

It took Bill Belichick 3 weeks

[Capco]

13 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Was going to say exactly this. The EP offense requires receivers that know what they are doing, and their responsibilities are based on where they are in the formation.

 

So the far left receiver runs a certain route, but the far left receiver changes as players go in motion. That is one reason they motion so much imo, it's basically an option play by Allen on when he starts the play. Depending on where the motion guy is at the snap changes what the other receivers do.

 

It's structured improvisation on every play. The routes themselves are relatively basic, but can be combined in creative ways, and Allen can read the defense and can choose which receiver he wants to run which route based on mismatches he sees presnap. It's crazy exciting, especially having a qb as smart as Allen running it...very Pats like in a lot of ways.

 

100% spot on afaik.  When I was in my teens, the most I knew about offenses and formations and whatnot was pretty much predicated on Madden for a while lol.

 

Once I began really digging into the X's and O's of football, and specifically EP, I remember thinking "Wait, so some teams motion a receiver and depending on where that receiver motions to, it can alter the OTHER receiver's routes, all at the same time?!  That was the "think outside the box" moment for me and was when I really started to gain an appreciation for how creative plays in football can be.  

 

One final thought:  when people say Brady is a "system" QB, this is exactly what they are referring to.  People say the system makes it "easy" on Brady, and while that's true to a point, it still takes a smart, capable QB to run this highly complex offense.  All the EP does is help maximize the production of those who can handle it, assuming you have the smarts on the rest of your offense to implement it.  

 

We're lucky Josh has a big arm AND a big brain.  

[Mr. WEO]

I guess he never played at Florida State...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 9/23/2019 at 10:26 AM, wppete said:

John Brown is much better than what we all thought. I thought he was a pure speed guy that takes the top off defenses but he is much more than that. He runs smooth clean routes and he is quick on his breaks. Very smart receiver. So happy we signed him!!! Great job Beane and Co.

 

Agreed. I’ve been impressed with his hand on tough catches 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 9/23/2019 at 10:23 AM, PlayoffsPlease said:

During the broadcast yesterday Jay Feely mentioned that John Brown told him the Bills offense is the most complicated he has played in.  Previous head coaches for Brown include Bruce Arians and John Harbaugh, so that is an interesting observation by John. 

Its not clear to me that "most complicated" is a great thing.  But my understanding is that NE's offense is considered very complicated, and that seems to have worked out over time.

 

maybe he was going for complex.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

maybe he was going for complex.

 

 

Oh no.  If complex vs complicated is anything like accurate vs precise, we're all in for more of an education than we want. 

[Buffalo716]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Oh no.  If complex vs complicated is anything like accurate vs precise, we're all in for more of an education than we want. 

I have my pen and pad

[ComradeKayAdams]

15 hours ago, Capco said:

 

100% spot on afaik.  When I was in my teens, the most I knew about offenses and formations and whatnot was pretty much predicated on Madden for a while lol.

 

Once I began really digging into the X's and O's of football, and specifically EP, I remember thinking "Wait, so some teams motion a receiver and depending on where that receiver motions to, it can alter the OTHER receiver's routes, all at the same time?!  That was the "think outside the box" moment for me and was when I really started to gain an appreciation for how creative plays in football can be.  

 

One final thought:  when people say Brady is a "system" QB, this is exactly what they are referring to.  People say the system makes it "easy" on Brady, and while that's true to a point, it still takes a smart, capable QB to run this highly complex offense.  All the EP does is help maximize the production of those who can handle it, assuming you have the smarts on the rest of your offense to implement it.  

 

We're lucky Josh has a big arm AND a big brain.  

 

For what it's worth, Josh Allen scored a really good 37 on the Wonderlic. Our youthful AFC QB competitors:

 

Rosen: 29

Darnold: 28

Mayfield: 25

Mahomes: 24

Watson: 20

Jackson: 13

 

Of course, Ryan Fitzpatrick scored a 48. And he also went to Harvard (I bet none of you knew that).

[ALF]

I'm not a fan of complicated after the Rex  D  disaster. If a receiver runs a wrong route that could be a int .

 

Lamar Jackson with a 13 wonderlic is doing fine in a less complex offense.

[ny33]

 

1 hour ago, ALF said:

I'm not a fan of complicated after the Rex  D  disaster. If a receiver runs a wrong route that could be a int .

 

Lamar Jackson with a 13 wonderlic is doing fine in a less complex offense.

There's no question that Lamar is vastly improved from last year, and he looked like someone who can potentially play at a consistently elite level (does an above-average job of progressing through reads and getting rid of the ball), but he struggled against a mediocre Chiefs defense, and needs to prove that he can be effective vs. average or better defenses. KC is average at best defensively, besides a strong defensive line, but Reid and other good coaches with experience will gameplan and make adjustments that the rookie head coach of, perhaps, the worst team in NFL history, and a first-year offensive mind from the college ranks with some promising talent but a bottom-five roster can't. Ravens fans should be very happy with him, but let's see how he does vs. elite defenses and in his 2nd games vs. division opponents (Bengals have major weaknesses but some impact players esp. at DL, Steelers look historically terrible but will play a physical game vs. a bitter rival, and the Browns have a playoff-caliber D with some gamebreakers, particularly Garrett.

Edited September 29, 2019 by ny33