Duke Williams impressing again...activate him!

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lmao, except everything I criticized him for was spot on and he’s proved you wrong on the field.  

 

Sorry, try again.

 

Film doesn’t lie. 

 

But you do!

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

I suppose even if the ball is thrown at his feet it is still in his direction.

 

Clearly not every ball is catchable and in the other thread you will find me defending him for the ball in the endzone on Sunday which while catchable needed an outstanding catch to bring it in. I don't blame him for not catching it. 

 

But not every ball thrown to every other receiver in the league is catchable either and I broke down the numbers and posted them here in the summer (probably in @Alphadawg7's thread). Of receivers taken in the top 3 rounds of the last 3 drafts (16-18) he had the 2nd worst catch %. Some of those other guys have had less than ideal Quarterbacking too.... there was a 49ers receiver in there who has had CJ Betherd and Nick Mullins for most of his games. 

 

Whichever way you cut it the fact is Zay does not catch enough balls when compared to his peers. 

[formerlyofCtown]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Clearly not every ball is catchable and in the other thread you will find me defending him for the ball in the endzone on Sunday which while catchable needed an outstanding catch to bring it in. I don't blame him for not catching it. 

 

But not every ball thrown to every other receiver in the league is catchable either and I broke down the numbers and posted them here in the summer (probably in @Alphadawg7's thread). Of receivers taken in the top 3 rounds of the last 3 drafts (16-18) he had the 2nd worst catch %. Some of those other guys have had less than ideal Quarterbacking too.... there was a 49ers receiver in there who has had CJ Betherd and Nick Mullins for most of his games. 

 

Whichever way you cut it the fact is Zay does not catch enough balls when compared to his peers. 

Yet he is the all-time receptions leader in college isnt he.  He needs to get it together but I still believe he will.

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Yet he is the all-time receptions leader in college isnt he.  He needs to get it together but I still believe he will.

 

His record in college doesn’t mean much though. 

 

Have you looked at the all time receptions leaders list?  There’s like 5 real NFL WRs in the top 50 and only two in the top 10.  I mean the vast majority are guys who never made the NFL or didn’t last long.  So its not really a good indicator of future NFL success...and to be fair, most CFB records aren’t either.  

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-player-career.html

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Yet he is the all-time receptions leader in college isnt he.  He needs to get it together but I still believe he will.

 

He is. But he is also three years removed from that. You will see I am not advocating cutting him now but I think time is running out quickly for him and it isn't a huge stretch to say the gap between he and Duke is narrowing. 

36 minutes ago, folz said:

Playing wide receiver is more than just making catches. To Zay's detractors, let me speculate for a minute...

 

Daboll's offense is vast and complicated. A WR has to retain a lot of information because you often run similar plays out of different formations or different personal groups, etc. And the sheer volume of plays is a lot to learn. And coming from the New England school, each week is game specific. You're not really running the exact same offense each week. It changes every game. Plus, especially as the third wide out, you aren't going to see a ton of balls come your way, so you better be a good blocker for the team to have value in putting you out there. And that means understanding all of the run plays as well. 

 

Last year, we had a bad, unathletic offensive line. Daboll had his hands tied behind his back, so he had to simplify everything. No screens, no pulling plays, etc., etc. So, Foster had fewer plays to learn and run. Maybe he and Williams are just taking longer to master the offense. If they were the better players (overall), I think they would be playing. This coaching staff doesn't play favorites, they put their best men out there. And they know these players and what the team needs out of them a lot better than we do just seeing a nice catch here and there.

 

I think it is a simple matter of Zay knowing the offense better and being the best blocker of the three (right now). We know that Zay had to help Benjamin when he was here, knowing where to lineup and it actually happened a couple of times in this preseason where Zay had to direct Foster as to the proper alignment on a play. Maybe Duke's transitioning from the CFL is taking some time. Maybe Foster didn't put the study and proper prep time in coming off of his rookie season (that happens to a lot of 2nd year players, not knowing how to be a true professional yet, and they have a sophomore slump). There is a reason that Zay is getting more snaps as of now.

 

Also in Zay's defense, I find it interesting that people roast him for not catching a very difficult pass (the possible TD), a "drop" that they would have forgiven of any other receiver on the roster, but they never mention when he makes a big third down conversion. And with Josh throwing so many balls to Brown and Beasley and really spreading the ball around, of course Zay doesn't have gaudy stats. So to bring up his yardage after two games seems a pretty bad argument as well. Especially with the offense still trying to find their identity. 

 

Having said all of that, I love Foster and Duke and I hope they keep developing (I wanted Duke to make the 53). And if they reach a point where they unseat Zay, I'll be all for it. I know Zay hasn't lived up to his 2nd round draft status, but this bashing of Zay seems over the top to me. The kid does nothing but work hard and is a team player.

 

I think this is a very good post. I make you absolutely spot on about why Zay is still out there. He blocks and he knows the plays. McDermott alluded in one presser in the pre-season to Foster maybe not knowing the playbook as well as he needed to. That said those who knock Zay are not generally knocing him on yardage. They are knocking him on catch %. He has to catch a higher percentage of the balls thrown his way. Because the other elements only keep you on the field so long. 

[Billzgobowlin]

4 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Some thoughts:

 

I like Duke, but why do so many feel the need to shake things up?  We are 2-0 and the passing game has been pretty darn good.  Each of the WRs on the 53 provide us with a different skill set.  Zay and Duke are such different animals, you can't just swap one for the other.  Zay is a good route runner and blocker, and I get the sense that he's developing into a leader of sorts in the locker room by the way McDermott regards him.  I could see Duke for Foster maybe, but Foster flashed big-time upside last year and he's a legit deep ball threat that Duke isn't.  I also think Duke's size isn't needed so much with a guy like Allen at QB.  I thinks it's better to have a bunch of those smaller fast dudes out there spreading the D out, so we can take advantage of Josh's redzone running ability.  He's not some statue that you need to bail out with fade routes.

 

Regarding Foster, most of his demotion is just a result of the fact that we signed two talented, veteran guys at WR in the off-season.  Brown and Beasley are frankly better players than Foster at this point. Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I have to wonder if some of Foster's fall on the depth chart doesn't have to do with his level of professionalism and work ethic.  He basically admitted as much last year.  Now you've got two real pros in front of him, so the question becomes: do they become mentors of sorts or at least real examples for him as to how to approach the game, or does Foster remain oblivious, get discouraged or resentful and let his career slip through his fingers?  The guy we saw last year is super talented and proved that he can play in this league.  I'd hate to see him just disappear. 

I'm not sure what Allen's size has to do with receiver's being taller.  Height advantage is big for pulling down balls over DBs

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

His record in college doesn’t mean much though. 

 

Have you looked at the all time receptions leaders list?  There’s like 5 real NFL WRs in the top 50 and only two in the top 10.  I mean the vast majority are guys who never made the NFL or didn’t last long.  So its not really a good indicator of future NFL success...and to be fair, most CFB records aren’t either.  

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rec-player-career.html

It does in the case of wether he can catch.

[Big Gun]

IMO, they have to activate Duke for fear of losing him to another team.

[JoPar_v2]

4 minutes ago, pop gun said:

IMO, they have to activate Duke for fear of losing him to another team.

Like they were certain to lose him after cut downs, right?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I - and I think many others - LOVED what Foster brought to the table last season.  Since OTAs, up until last week, he's shown nothing.  Not sure if he got lazy, or if he's hurt - but something is definitely up.  He looked like he had the makings of a legitimate #1 WR last season.  I'm totally confused.

 

He does dumb things.  He blocked the wrong guy on a wr screen and got Zay blown up for -2. Runs the wrong routes, whiffs on ST blocks and has zero catches on two targets.  Including a bad drop where he tried catching with his forearms v Giants.

 

It does continue to be slightly annoying that these WRs that seem like they could be good continue to fizzle out while a guy like Godwin has a 120+ yd 8 catch game.

 

Thank goodness for Cole and Smoky

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I guess you missed Duke was going against 3rd stringers when he made most if not all his catches in preseason.

 

Duke Williams hopefully develops, but he isn't as good as Zay Jones right now or Robert Foster.  And Zay and Robert aren't deserving to get targets over Smoke or Beasley right now either.

 

Let's go for 50 more pages of this nonsense seemed to be entertaining just a few months ago.  Still waiting for you to live up to your claim that you're rooting for Zay....just be patient and let things get going, we're only 2 games in for crying out loud

 

 

I guess you missed zay not producing, and dropping passes on a regular basis, he has been demoted all the way down to having to do teams work, it’s sad to watch actually, Good WR don’t do teams, Brown, Beasley... cough cough....

 

Go Bills!!!!

 

[Dopey]

11 hours ago, fansince88 said:

Zay...is that you? OR.....did you just get a Zay jersey

Good one.

[Rochesterfan]

Ok ok - this has just gotten crazy.  

 

Let’s first start by asking ourselves why did Zay make the initial roster over and already older and more experienced Duke.  Zay provides position flexibility and offensive knowledge that no one else on this roster has.  Not Duke, Not McKenzie (McKittrick), Not Foster, Not Roberts, Not even Cole or Smoke.  Therefore he provides something that this coaching staff loves - the ability to fill in and move around formations to help set-up coverages.

 

Foster is a great speed guy and an average outside receiver.  He has shown that he struggles to block and run routes that are not in the deep third of the field.  He is getting limited reps and even fewer throws and even when thrown to - he has zero catches and dropped a more catchable ball than the one Zay had in the end zone.  For 2019 - zero catches, a drop, and some missed blocks.

 

McKenzie is their little gadget WR.  He is in because of his speed and his vision as an RB coming around on Jet motion.  He like Cole gets open from the slot with suddenness and then a quick burst.  He has been the most productive of the back-ups and continues to earn a spot on this roster.

 

Cole and Smoke are your 2 starters and are seeing the majority of the snaps and throws.  They are your 1-2 and that is exactly what they were brought in for.

 

Roberts is our returner and once he is back in game shape it will be interesting to see who sits as he can play some WR also.  My guess with his speed he takes more plays from Foster and some from Zay.

 

Now Duke is interesting - first we have to remember he is already older than most WRs on this roster and has more experience and more failure at the NFL level than even Zay - so the fact that he is finally starting to make plays is a sign as to how growth can continue- for those that want to mock Zay for being inconsistent- here is a guy that was even worse for longer before getting it together.  Duke brings size and toughness- something totally lacking with the current WRs, but he lacks speed and the ability to get open from multiple positions on the field.  His best ability is his ability to go up and get the ball and that is not a throw Josh is good at yet - see training camp and high corner throws.  Duke played his best getting passes from Barkley - who to be honest at this point - puts the ball in some better positions than Josh does around the end zone. 

 

I personally do not think there is anyway Duke makes the end zone catch that Zay dropped because I don’t think Duke can lay out lengthwise at speed like that.  I also want Zay to make that catch, but recognize there is a reason he is getting only 50% or less of the snaps.  He is not your #1 or #2 WR - he is your 3 or 4 - fill in guy that fills a specific role on the team.  He can block and run routes - so teams can’t focus on him and say - oh this is a run or this is a pass, but he is just another guy.  

 

Watching the All-22 and seeing the routes they worked on in training camp - I think the throw to Zay in the end zone was the wrong throw and it was a very difficult catch that really only Beasley and maybe Brown make with any consistency.  I think the correct throw that Dabol would have wanted there was a touch pass to the sideline/corner - drop it in the bucket - throw.  I watched several days of training camp and they must have practiced that touch pass every day from that exact spot - throwing into buckets in both corners of the end zone, throwing to WRs trying to drag toes.  It was something like 20+ passes each day dedicated to that exact throw.  You could see in TC that Barkley was comfortable with that throw and it showed in the preseason with some similar throws to Duke.  You could also see that Josh was not comfortable with that throw to WRs and he tended to use less touch and more force on the throws.

 

We will see what happens, but I really do not think Duke is a great fit for Josh even in the red zone and if they do call him up - I think Foster is gone first over Zay.  Finally - I think the Bills feel they can get everything that Duke can give them from Knox and Kroft and that no one can give them Fosters speed or Zays flexibility.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Rochesterfan

[ALF]

Wish we had more room on 53 roster , he spells red zone target. I won't give up on Zay for now.

[Nuncha]

12 hours ago, billspro said:

 

It was. Zay Jones better start playing better or this guy is going to take his spot. 

This should have happened already...

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Every receiver on the team has a specific role, Foster included.

 

Brown and Beasley are obviously the top 2. We'll throw to the other receivers now and again to keep defenses honest, but Brown and Beasley are the high volume catchers.

 

McKenzie is Beasley's back up, and comes in for gadget plays. Defenses have to pay attention when he's on the field.

 

Foster is Brown's back up, and comes in to take the top off the defense on specific play calls. I bet he will get a couple shot calls in the next 2 weeks. Defenses have to open up the entire field when he's in the lineup.

 

Roberts is the premier kick returner.

 

Zay is the blocking WR. He is more valuable in the run game than the pass game but he has his role. This is why Duke will not be taking his spot this year. We already know Zay is a solid blocker against NFL talent. I'm not sure Duke is at that level yet.

 

Duke would have no defined role on the team right now. A year on the practice squad will do him good.

Sounds like someone trusts the coaching staff. Nice. 

[Commish]

1 hour ago, pop gun said:

IMO, they have to activate Duke for fear of losing him to another team.

I've been wondering, if a team claims a player off of the practice squad, does the initial team, i.e. the Bills with Duke, have the option of moving him up to preserve him?

Edited September 19, 2019 by Roch-A-Bill

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

It does in the case of wether he can catch.

Yeah, he could catch well then, but for some reason he has trouble now, which is the time that matters. That's why what he did in college doesn't mean a thing at this point in terms of what he is having trouble with in the NFL.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

4 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Yet he is the all-time receptions leader in college isnt he.  He needs to get it together but I still believe he will.

It’s going on three full years of zay trying to get it together, what college did he go to, was it a top school or top competition???  He has been forced to play teams,  good WRs don’t play  teams,  Look, we would all prefer that Zay kicks azs, would be good for Zay, and good for the Bills, but now in his third year it’s not looking like that’s gonna happen.  He is out of sync with Allen an awful lot, Allen was trying to get him to run his routes differently during camp so they would work better during games, that seemingly has not helped him. How much time do we give him??

 

Go Bills!!!

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, JoPar_v2 said:

Like they were certain to lose him after cut downs, right?

That doesn't mean anything. He could still get picked up at anytime. Especially if teams continue to see these catches that he is making. However I'm glad he has not been picked up by another team

Edited September 19, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy