Kelly the Dog Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: Gunner brought up Hopkins and said he saw him drop a similar ball. I wasn’t comparing him to Hopkins. It's all good. But you were. You said "All WRs don’t make every play, but I bet if you threw that play 10 times in a row to Hopkins he makes it more than he drops it." So you were saying, rightfully, Hopkins makes that play routinely. Zay doesn't and may never. Again, you and I are in total agreement on Zay. I think you should come down to Busbys in Santa Monica this weekend, I will buy you a few beers or drinks and we can argue over it.
Alphadawg7 Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: It's all good. But you were. You said "All WRs don’t make every play, but I bet if you threw that play 10 times in a row to Hopkins he makes it more than he drops it." So you were saying, rightfully, Hopkins makes that play routinely. Zay doesn't and may never. Again, you and I are in total agreement on Zay. I think you should come down to Busbys in Santa Monica this weekend, I will buy you a few beers or drinks and we can argue over it. Ha, you're gonna be at Busby's? I used to go there all the time when I lived down the street 11 years ago. I only live like 15 min away now down on the beach in Playa and may actually be there with my neighbor too this weekend! Lets do it! And to clarify, I said I thought Cole and Brown will make that catch more than they won't. Gunners counter point to that he didn't feel they would and cited that he saw Hopkins drop a similar one...and I was just responding to him saying that I still think Hopkins more often makes that catch than doesn't.
GunnerBill Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 I think if Brown or Beasley fail to come up with that ball - and I think both would have failed to come up with it - I think this is a different conversation. Zay has done nothing to earn any benefit of the doubt but people are seeing that play through the prism of his career to this point. I think Zay Jones's time on the Buffalo Bills is drawing to a close. His playing time is already down on last year, but it won't be because of that play on Sunday. That would have been an outstanding catch if he had pulled it off. It isn't his failure to make the outstanding plays that will end up costing him. It is his failure to make too many of the routine plays. To end this discussion on a more positive, one would hope consensual, note. The impressive thing about the play on the all22 is that what I thought from the broadcast angle was Allen going through his progressions before he gets back to Zay was actually him trying to look off the corner with his eyes. That is high level stuff and more reason to be encouraged.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 18, 2019 Author Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I am sorry no NFL receiver makes that 8 or 9 times out of 10. In fact I saw a very similar play (not in the endzone) in the Texans - Saints MNF and Hopkins didn't manage to come up with it and he is the best in the business. It is fine to criticize Zay for balls he should have. That was not one of them. Fine, 6 or 7 times out of 10. Better side of 50%. I call bull on the idea that NFL WRs would only catch 25% of any passes similar to that. Cole did actually make a similar catch earlier in that game extending his arms and catching with his hands, which was what Zay had to do. That ball hit him square on his hands. It was a difficult catch, but he made it. You're also right, though. We scrutinize the play because it's Zay. I genuinely can't think of a time in the last 2 years where I thought "that was a great catch by Zay!" Can you? We scrutinize the play because it's just another pass he could've caught, but didn't. Edited September 18, 2019 by transplantbillsfan
GunnerBill Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: You're also right, though. We scrutinize the play because it's Zay. I genuinely can't think of a time in the last 2 years where I thought "that was a great catch by Zay!" Can you? We scrutinize the play because it's just another pass he could've caught, but didn't. No I can't think of a great catch by Zay, but that would have required one. I am not defending Zay Jones. I think he is running out of lives.
Rochesterfan Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 6 hours ago, HappyDays said: Here's the missed TD to Zay: Tough catch but I'd like Zay to make more than 1 out every 10 tough catch. 6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Well the All 22 is up, did you see it? This play did not go the way you thought above. Zay ran his route and one of only 2 routes on the play. Was no extra working to get open, it was his route and Allen read him all the way and dropped back and fired. I will say that it was not an easy gimme catch since it was a diving catch. But it still hit him right in the hands and was catchable. The guy just doesn’t make plays, and at this level in the NFL you expect a guy to make that catch most the time when it hits him in the hands. And especially late in a one score game, you want your guy to make that play. Wasn’t as bad as his drop in preseason, but still another moment Zay had a chance to make a play and came up short. And so far, there are just too many of these moments and not enough impactful moments. Watching the Play - God I love having this type of video available now. I think this incompletion is actually more on Josh than Zay. Watching the above I think Josh is late on the throw making it much harder to complete. Josh hits his drop at 3 seconds in the video and Zay has cleared his defender and is at a much better angle to make a catch. Josh takes a small hop forward and then throws a ball low and away that Zay is able to get his hands on, but that is a very difficult catch - especially for guys that are not number 1s on the team. I think Cole catches that most of the time - as we saw with his earlier catch. I think Brown struggles with that catch, but makes it half the time. Zay that just is not going to get caught except maybe 1/4 of the time or less - which is why he is not starting. The other part of this that I blame a bit on Josh is that they worked similar plays in Training camp this year and once he cleared the middle of the field - the throw they had the QBs work on was the touch pass to the corner of the end zone and dropping it in so the WR could go get it. That was the throw needed there. Over the top of the defender to the back corner/sideline and let Zay go get it. Throwing a low throw on that angle is a safe pass, but is much lower completion percentage and we saw that in the work this training camp. All that being said - Josh put the ball in a perfect place to allow Zay to make a catch and ensure the DB had no shot - good for Josh. Now Zay needs to get his head together and make that type of play or all the blocking in the world does not keep him on this team. The problem is even with not making that play - Zay is doing a ton more on this roster than Foster - so for everyone suggesting that they cut Zay and bring up Williams - I think Foster goes first - so I still do not think you are getting what you want - unless Foster really picks it up at some point. 1
Nextmanup Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: No I can't think of a great catch by Zay, but that would have required one. I am not defending Zay Jones. I think he is running out of lives. He's basically a bust. If he were not one of McBeane's guys, he would likely be gone by now.
GunnerBill Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: He's basically a bust. If he were not one of McBeane's guys, he would likely be gone by now. I know people will not like this..... but I actually think his run blocking is what is keeping him on the team. It is an area where neither Brown nor Beasley excel. But it does raise questions about what he is bringing that someone like a Duke Williams wouldn't.
billsfan1959 Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 On 9/17/2019 at 3:01 AM, Alphadawg7 said: Well Cover1 who uses the All 22 to do their write-ups and recaps rated Zay a dud and said he dropped the TD pass. I watched it back and it looked like a ball he should have caught as well. And lets be honest, Zay doesn't exactly have the track record for the benefit of the doubt here either. I would personally still like to see the All 22 myself before I make any real declaration on it, but until then it looked like a drop and Cover1 seems to agree. https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-studs-duds-new-york-giants/ 23 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I don't care what they think. I think they are wrong. Looks like it would have been a tough catch, but one he could have made... 1
oldmanfan Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 We all need to stop parsing every single pass and every single catch as if they provide definitive proof of something. Allen put that throw away from the defender where only Jones could get it. Jones made a great diving effort to get it and just missed. Neither did anything wrong. 6
GunnerBill Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Looks like it would have been a tough catch, but one he could have made... I think a very tough catch. Not impossible, but that skill is very difficult diving at full speed arms outstretched. 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: We all need to stop parsing every single pass and every single catch as if they provide definitive proof of something. Allen put that throw away from the defender where only Jones could get it. Jones made a great diving effort to get it and just missed. Neither did anything wrong. This is 100% right.
badassgixxer05 Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 Another thread turning into a Zay Jones is terrible rant again!? Can we not be like WGR for a min and keep our mind on the positive things! Allen progression is right on track. Hes going to be really really good!!
ROCBillsBeliever Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 8:24 PM, Seven-N-Nine said: He has to keep it up. That's what Kay Adams said ?
thebandit27 Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 On 9/15/2019 at 6:44 PM, transplantbillsfan said: at 7.6 YPA after being told for months that Allen is what he is: a sub 60% passer. I argued all offseason accuracy wasn't really his problem after actually watching and rewatching all of his passes along with several of his peers. I really thought he'd be over 60% this season and got a lot of pushback. Well, we're only 2 games in and today there were definitely some throws he missed (John Brown wants his Td Josh!!!) but, yet again, also throws that were missed by his targets: Knox for sure with a perfectly placed ball and couldn't tell what happened with the pass to Jones in the EZ, but looked like a drop. Last week we all saw the drops from Beasely. We as Bills fans are probably catching on that Allen can be an accurate QB. I wonder how long it takes everyone else to see it... So, about that... 1 3
CincyBillsFan Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: We all need to stop parsing every single pass and every single catch as if they provide definitive proof of something. Allen put that throw away from the defender where only Jones could get it. Jones made a great diving effort to get it and just missed. Neither did anything wrong. Taking it a step further we should be optimistic about that play. In the NFL this is probably a TD 50% of the time so yes it was not an easy catch. But on the positive side of things Allen got the ball there and Jones was open having run a good route. This is an example of how both Jones & Allen have elevated their passing game. That this was in the red zone is even more encouraging. I suspect in the near future we'll see the same pattern run where Jones will get a bit more open and Allen will put the ball closer to chest high with the result being a pretty TD pass.
GunnerBill Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 58 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: So, about that... Transplant hates every QB not on the Bills until they are on the Bills. Then he loves them. ? 1
transplantbillsfan Posted September 18, 2019 Author Posted September 18, 2019 12 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I think if Brown or Beasley fail to come up with that ball - and I think both would have failed to come up with it - I think this is a different conversation. Zay has done nothing to earn any benefit of the doubt but people are seeing that play through the prism of his career to this point. I am doing this to a large degree. And I understand that. It's a ball he could have caught and it wouldn't have taken Herculean efforts. He has never come up with a catch like that in the NFL, to the best of my recollection, and when he was drafted he was basically advertised as the guy who catches everything. When we kept him on the roster, I was open minded he'd take a big 3rd year leap. I'd still love to see it. But it's going to take a catch or two like that one that he actually makes. 12 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I think Zay Jones's time on the Buffalo Bills is drawing to a close. His playing time is already down on last year, but it won't be because of that play on Sunday. That would have been an outstanding catch if he had pulled it off. It isn't his failure to make the outstanding plays that will end up costing him. It is his failure to make too many of the routine plays. I think you're being a bit liberal with the word "outstanding." OBJ's one-handed catch on Monday night against the Jets was outstanding. Zay's catch (if he made it) in the EZ wouldn't have been outstanding. 12 hours ago, GunnerBill said: To end this discussion on a more positive, one would hope consensual, note. The impressive thing about the play on the all22 is that what I thought from the broadcast angle was Allen going through his progressions before he gets back to Zay was actually him trying to look off the corner with his eyes. That is high level stuff and more reason to be encouraged. Agreed.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 18, 2019 Author Posted September 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: Watching the Play - God I love having this type of video available now. I think this incompletion is actually more on Josh than Zay. Watching the above I think Josh is late on the throw making it much harder to complete. Josh hits his drop at 3 seconds in the video and Zay has cleared his defender and is at a much better angle to make a catch. Josh takes a small hop forward and then throws a ball low and away that Zay is able to get his hands on, but that is a very difficult catch - especially for guys that are not number 1s on the team. I think Cole catches that most of the time - as we saw with his earlier catch. I think Brown struggles with that catch, but makes it half the time. Zay that just is not going to get caught except maybe 1/4 of the time or less - which is why he is not starting. The other part of this that I blame a bit on Josh is that they worked similar plays in Training camp this year and once he cleared the middle of the field - the throw they had the QBs work on was the touch pass to the corner of the end zone and dropping it in so the WR could go get it. That was the throw needed there. Over the top of the defender to the back corner/sideline and let Zay go get it. Throwing a low throw on that angle is a safe pass, but is much lower completion percentage and we saw that in the work this training camp. All that being said - Josh put the ball in a perfect place to allow Zay to make a catch and ensure the DB had no shot - good for Josh. Now Zay needs to get his head together and make that type of play or all the blocking in the world does not keep him on this team. The problem is even with not making that play - Zay is doing a ton more on this roster than Foster - so for everyone suggesting that they cut Zay and bring up Williams - I think Foster goes first - so I still do not think you are getting what you want - unless Foster really picks it up at some point. I don't know about this. Foster missed a block I saw highlighted on offense a week ago I think, but he does play on Special teams. Plus... https://theathletic.com/1219528/2019/09/17/bills-all-22-review-how-the-week-2-film-shows-josh-allen-set-his-new-gold-standard-and-grades-for-each-player/ 5) Fear not, the deep shot to Foster is on the way In 2018, wide receiver Robert Foster became a late-season gem after he turned everything around with the help of his teammates. Before training camp, some of those high expectations were still in place. Now, Foster has settled into his role as the fourth wide receiver and has zero receptions with only two targets to his name thus far. While the passing volume of last season won’t be there for Foster unless there’s an injury, a splash play is likely on the way. After reviewing the coaches’ film, the Bills and Allen had three designed deep shots dialed up for Foster, but none came to fruition. In the following video, you’ll see three separate plays that show Foster as Allen’s target upon winning his deep route against the defender. On the first, Allen was looking Foster’s way initially, but the Giants flushed him from the pocket. On the second play, Allen reared back to lead Foster to the end zone, but the Giants deflected the ball during his throwing motion. On the third example, Foster won his route and Allen ignored the open receiver over the middle of the field to attempt to buy time. He wanted to let the route develop and step into the throw, as the end zone angle shows — only to get sacked. https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/09/17213005/0917-Robert-Foster.m4v?_=3 That link is to the video, which actually shows the 3 plays designed to Foster. The link might not work, though. It's a subscription story. And he's open on all 3 plays. They just didn't work for the reasons highlighted above.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 18, 2019 Posted September 18, 2019 13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Ha, you're gonna be at Busby's? I used to go there all the time when I lived down the street 11 years ago. I only live like 15 min away now down on the beach in Playa and may actually be there with my neighbor too this weekend! Lets do it! And to clarify, I said I thought Cole and Brown will make that catch more than they won't. Gunners counter point to that he didn't feel they would and cited that he saw Hopkins drop a similar one...and I was just responding to him saying that I still think Hopkins more often makes that catch than doesn't. I'm there every week. Go to the back bar and ask the short cute girl bartender (Lauren) for Pete. It should be crazy this week. or message me here before you come and I will give you my phone number to text. That would be great.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 18, 2019 Author Posted September 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Nextmanup said: He's basically a bust. If he were not one of McBeane's guys, he would likely be gone by now. The thing is, Beane didn't even draft him, but he's the one who talks him up all the time. 8 hours ago, thebandit27 said: So, about that... Soooo.... not much longer then? Is that what the reposting of that thread is supposed to indicate? Not remotely hiding how much I hated the Allen pick when we drafted him. 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Transplant hates every QB not on the Bills until they are on the Bills. Then he loves them. ? Not true. Go look at my posting history regarding Peterman.
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