Saxum Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 On 9/11/2019 at 5:26 PM, Nester said: Well, we had OJ lets call it a tie OJ's issue were post Bills when he became a Californian. On 9/11/2019 at 5:27 PM, Call_Of_Ktulu said: There is a reason that the rest of the country hates the Patriots. You have hit on pretty much all of them. I think he may be batting 50%. There are a lot more. On 9/11/2019 at 5:38 PM, BullBuchanan said: Yea, I dunno. I mean I hate the pats, but I do spend an awful lot of time wishing I was born in Boston, so I could be one of those obnoxious fans with every world championship. You would fit in perfectly. Just be their version of Scott Law.
Saxum Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 On 9/11/2019 at 6:21 PM, Chris66 said: Keep your morals. Ill take the rings. Their bandwagon is not full yet.
Shaw66 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Posted September 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Chris66 said: Shaw I think your looking at this the wrong way. Its a sport only in the sense that the business is competition, but if you ask 32 owners they will tell you its a business first and like any successfull business its sole purpose is to make money. In this business winning makes money. No, Chris, you're not listening to me. I'm not looking at it the wrong way. I get that it's a business. And I get that businesses can operate any way they want. And I get that a hard-hearted, take-no-prisoners approach may be the most effective to succeed. What I said is that I, Shaw66, like my team because it puts some limits on itself. The Bills' approach, or so it seems to me, is to seek to have the success the Patriots have had on the field while AT THE SAME TIME, treating people the way people should be treated, fairly and with respect. The Bills want everyone in the organization to operate with a higher moral standard than simply winner-take-all, no-holds-barred. I like rooting for a team that stands for winning AND something more. It's not about works best, it's not about whether the Pats are free to behave as they have. It's about how I feel about my team. Several other fans have posted that they feel the same way. That's cool. Several other people have stated that they don't feel that way and they don't care about the standards the Bills live by. That's fine with me, too. Based on how some people have responded, it seems they think I'm trying to impose my standards on them. I'm not. It isn't an argument. I simply stated how I feel about the Patriots, that they are amoral. I didn't say they don't deserve their success. Beyond that, I said I prefer having a coach and owner who hold themselves to a higher standard. 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I agreed with a lot in your post but I particularly agreed with this. The Patriots win because Belichick is smarter and Brady is better than the rest of the league put together. And in the final two games of last season the played the best young QB in the league and then the best young HC in the league. They beat them both. Rather than moaning about it or trying to discredit or devalue any of what the Patriots have done Bills fans should be spending their time looking hard at the decisions McDermott and Beane are making and asking whether they are decisions that put the Bills in position to take over as the AFC's dominant force. I think we are on the right path... but there is still some way to go. Gunner, I agree with you. It's amazing how people have jumped to some different conclusion. I did no "moaning" and I didn't not try to "discredit" or "devalue" anything the Patriots have accomplished. I said the Patriots are amoral and the Bills' management attempts to operate in accordance with a higher moral standard. I like that about the Bills.
Moose Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 Your thread is an interesting one, Shaw, generating some thoughtful discussion. I'd like to add one more thing about the Patriots that seems to generate some of the "hate" they attract: consistently favorable calls and "non-calls" by the referees, especially in crucial games at critical times. More that a few game balls could deservedly go to the Zebras!
Shaw66 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Posted September 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moose said: Your thread is an interesting one, Shaw, generating some thoughtful discussion. I'd like to add one more thing about the Patriots that seems to generate some of the "hate" they attract: consistently favorable calls and "non-calls" by the referees, especially in crucial games at critical times. More that a few game balls could deservedly go to the Zebras! Thanks, Moose. I've been interested in it. I really only wrote the OP to express my view of the culture that seems to prevail with the Patriots I wasn't trying to condemn them, although I will admit to having some feeling of superiority, because I'd like to think that I hold myself to a higher moral standard than the standard Kraft maintains. I didn't know what to expect. I thought the thread might die a quiet death after a few hundred views and a a couple dozen responses. I wasn't trying to start a debate, or even a discussion. The responses and the discussion have been very interesting. The intensity of the responses, particularly. Almost as though people took personally what I said. That has really surprised me. As I posted earlier, I really appreciated that people were pointing out why my facts were wrong. I'm not sure I agree in all cases, but so many people laid into me about that that I'm sure they're correct about a lot of it. But as I said then, I'm sure I'm correct about the more general proposition, that the current Patriots regime is less focused on whether what they do is fair or the right thing than most of the league, and certainly less so than the current Bills regime. I've also been surprised that people thought I was saying the Patriots don't deserve what they've earned. Surprised because I'm one the biggest Patriot admirers around here. I think Belichick is a genius, light years beyond anyone the league has ever seen, and I think Brady has grown to become the perfect quarterback in the best system in the league. They did it with brains and hard work. All I'm saying is that they - and their owner - just don't give a damn about anyone else, which is their prerogative..
Jrb1979 Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Shaw66 said: I think you and a lot of other people jumped to the wrong conclusion about what I said. I completely and totally agree with what I quoted above. I never said and never I tended to say their success came because they cheated lied or were immoral. I think what they have accomplished is incredible. I think McD is trying to copy a lot of it and I'm fine with that. What I said is that they are amoral, and I said I don't like that. They aren't gentlemen and they aren't sportsmen, and I dont like that. They don't care about treating opponents and other people fairly; they just care about winning. I dont like that I think if you asked McD about this and he talked candidly, he would tell you that his objective is to build a successful team that has bgh higher goals than the Pat's. It would be a team that honors and respects all people, doesn't lie and doesn't cheat. I think he would say that winning at all costs is NOT what he wants. I know that makes it harder; winning without morality is easier. McD just has a higher standard. I like that and it makes me proud of my team. I think it was clear I was talking about the current regimes, not prior ownership or management. So I'm not interested in all of your pre-McD arguments. Sorry but in a league that you said is hard to win in, winning should come at all costs. Its not the Rockpile days, lunch pail type teams don't win consistently in this league.
LabattBlue Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 I'll take the rings. Anyone who chooses otherwise, has not chosen wisely. 1
Shaw66 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Posted September 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: Sorry but in a league that you said is hard to win in, winning should come at all costs. I'd love to be able to ask McDermott about this. I don't think he'd agree with you. I think Belichick has done things to win that McDermott, a a matter of principle, would not do. 1
Gugny Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I'd love to be able to ask McDermott about this. I don't think he'd agree with you. I think Belichick has done things to win that McDermott, a a matter of principle, would not do. And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result. 1 1
Jrb1979 Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Gugny said: And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result. I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work.
oldmanfan Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 Just now, Jrb1979 said: I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work. That’s me. I’m with Shaw.
LSHMEAB Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 I don't know that it's entirely generational. The Packers had this coach a couple years back named Vince something or other. "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing." The fact that he borrowed it from someone doesn't change the fact that he said and meant it. The bottom line is this is a violent, big boy sport; it's not a character contest. I'll take the rings. 1
Gugny Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: I agree with you. I wonder if a lot of what Shaw66 others say about the Pats is cause the hardcore Bills fanbase is an older group by average. They come from an era of bring your lunch pail to work. What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith. Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood? Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO. 2 1
Jrb1979 Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: That’s me. I’m with Shaw. Today's NFL doesn't run that way. Winning is the only thing that matters. The Pats have shown that to be the case. I could less about how much faith or how nice the player is. I want to see wins. Edited September 14, 2019 by Jrb1979 1
Figster Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, Gugny said: And I think McDermott, and others like him, will win a lot fewer games than Belichick as a result. Myself personally, without the living legend of Tom Brady, the Pats cheating ways/ bad character sinks the ship. I realize B B is a great coach, but when the boatload of NFL playground bully's lose Brady, arguably the best QB that every played the the game, The dynasty and everything that goes with it is over in my humble opinion Gu. No way would I ever trade the Bills or our history for anything ...
Gugny Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Figster said: Myself personally, without the living legend of Tom Brady, the Pats cheating ways/ bad character sinks the ship. I realize B B is a great coach, but when the boatload of NFL playground bully's lose Brady, arguably the best QB that every played the the game, The dynasty and everything that goes with it is over in my humble opinion Gu. No way would I ever trade the Bills or our history for anything ... I agree. One or the other would not/will not equal dominance. They needed both and they were lucky enough to have them. 1
oldmanfan Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 26 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said: Today's NFL doesn't run that way. Winning is the only thing that matters. The Pats have shown that to be the case. I could less about how much faith or how nice the player is. I want to see wins. Then we’re different.
Shaw66 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Posted September 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, Gugny said: What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith. Does he? I think that's the impression that some fans have, but I don't hear it in him. That is, I hear him saying things that suggest he wants people with a strong moral compass, but I don't here a dogmatic Christian message from him, not any requirement that his players be God-fearing, chiurch-going Christians. Maybe I'm just missing it. 15 minutes ago, Gugny said: I agree. One or the other would not/will not equal dominance. They needed both and they were lucky enough to have them. I've always thought it's Belichick. I don't think Brady would have been Brady without Belichick, but if Brady hadn't come along, Belichick would have developed himself another QB. 1
oldmanfan Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Gugny said: What kills me is how much McDermott stresses his faith. Is there a bigger collective group of absolute scum than the catholic priesthood? Having devotion to that faith while simultaneously stressing the importance of "character," is a tad hypocritical IMO. Is he Catholic? Just looked it up, he’s Presbyterian. So the comment about Catholic priests is not really relevant. Edited September 14, 2019 by oldmanfan
Just Joshin' Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 I am very competitive and want to win at everything. I say push it to the limit without cheating or being unethical. At the end of the day this is a game and each person must decide where that line is for them. I am not surprised that there are some that see no line. This is how politics has become and the country is worse for the new paradigm.
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