Pats can keep their rings; I'll take the Bills

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

 

I’ve thought about this and, while I get what you’re saying, I want the rings as of this point. 

 

Now, I say this because there is an inbetween.  You don’t have to sell your soul to win a ring with the darkened hoodie, captain rub and tug, and the kid mouth kisser.  

 

What I do agree with is the overall concept.  I look at this team, how they seem to get along, support each other, diversity hires, and rebuilt the right way, and would love to win it with this team.  

 

That one ring would feel better than their 6 rings as it was done in a way I can respect, support, and hope other NFL teams follow.  

 

If the NFL had to pick the type of team they want to win, I think it’s the current Bills over the Antonio Brown supporting Pats

I like your post, but I disagree with the final statement.  The NFL is a business.   The commissioner's job is at the pleasure of the owners.  Larger markets are favored over small for revenue's sake.  The most influential owners are in the larger markets (e.g.  Kraft, Jones)  I think the fans and many of the coaches and players would like to see a team that does things the right way, the way you describe, but not the powers that be in the NFL.

 

If the NFL were smart, they would want to encourage and reward what you describe.  Could you imagine, on the 100th anniversary a Green Bay v KC Super Bowl?  That would have the fans watching and enjoying, no matter what market you were in...with the exception of New England.

[Virgil]

6 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

I like your post, but I disagree with the final statement.  The NFL is a business.   The commissioner's job is at the pleasure of the owners.  Larger markets are favored over small for revenue's sake.  The most influential owners are in the larger markets (e.g.  Kraft, Jones)  I think the fans and many of the coaches and players would like to see a team that does things the right way, the way you describe, but not the powers that be in the NFL.

 

If the NFL were smart, they would want to encourage and reward what you describe.  Could you imagine, on the 100th anniversary a Green Bay v KC Super Bowl?  That would have the fans watching and enjoying, no matter what market you were in...with the exception of New England.

 

I was referring to the TYPE of team, not small market in regards to how they are building.  But I get what you're saying

[jkeerie]

Just now, Virgil said:

 

I was referring to the TYPE of team, not small market in regards to how they are building.  But I get what you're saying

I know you were referring to the TYPE of team, notwithstanding market size.  I just don't think the powers that be at the NFL cares about that.  You'd like to think they did, but watching how the league has played out, particularly over the past 20 years, I don't see it.  I don't think they see things from the fan perspective.  

[Shaw66]

From the Boston Globe today.

 

Patriots coach Bill Belichick is fond of saying that when you acquire a player, you get everything that comes along with that player, from his vertical jump to his work ethic to his personality. The Patriots are getting everything that comes along with Antonio Brown, and they have only themselves to blame.

 

This being America, Brown is innocent until proven guilty. It’s possible that he is the victim of extortion here. But people who make bad decisions tend to find themselves in bad situations. And bad situations are as much a part of what Brown brings as precise route-running and exceptional hands. The Patriots have gotten themselves into one by taking on Brown.

 

They excused his bizarre behavior and reluctance to suit up for the Raiders. The social media sedition, the wildcat strike over a helmet, his repeated insubordination that dated back to his days in Pittsburgh . . . none of it fazed New England. The Patriots willfully turned a blind eye to Brown’s judgment and his actions.

 

Bill Belichick probably won’t send Brown packing. Instead of “Do Your Job,” the team’s credo should “We’ll Take Him.” Belichick has taken on players facing allegations of criminal behavior or with such behavior in their backgrounds before.

He drafted the late Aaron Hernandez, who went to prison for the murder of Odin Lloyd, in 2010 despite red flags regarding the disgraced tight end’s character and drug use. He drafted cornerback Alfonzo Dennard in 2012, five days after Dennard punched a police officer.

In 2016, the Patriots claimed wide receiver Michael Floyd off waivers from the Arizona Cardinals two days after he got arrested for driving under the influence and was so intoxicated that he passed out behind the wheel of his car.

 

Corey Dillon, Albert Haynesworth, and Aqib Talib were all talented players who passed the Patriots’ roster calculus for acceptance. Dealt for in 2004, Dillon had been arrested in 2000 for domestic violence. (Dillon had the charge dropped after he donated $750 to a domestic violence center and completed treatment.) Haynesworth was acquired in 2011 while he faced a sexual abuse charge for groping a waitress. Haynesworth pled no contest to a lesser charge of simple assault.

 

Traded to New England during the 2012 season, Talib had been arrested for simple battery on a cab driver in 2009 and charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon in 2011 after a confrontation with his sister’s boyfriend. The assault charge was dropped.

 

How much is a seventh Super Bowl title worth to the Patriots to get into business with Antonio Brown, knowing everything that comes with it?

[Shaw66]

I'm bumping this because I thought it was interesting that a Boston Globe columnist recently went after the Pats organization with more or less the same thing I said.  I don't think it's a misperception.   It's just the nature of the Pats organization under Kraft and Belichick. 

[May Day 10]

I would like to have witnessed important Bills games over the past 20 years

Edited September 13, 2019 by May Day 10

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

I would like to have witnessed important Bills games over the past 20 years

They're ALL important.   

 

They just haven't been meaningful. 

[Your Brown Eye]

On 9/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, Shaw66 said:

 

4.  The Patriots are owned by a billionaire who, for his personal pleasure, encourages sex-trafficking of poor women from other countries.  

 

 

[Big Turk]

On 9/11/2019 at 5:27 PM, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

There is a reason that the rest of the country hates the Patriots. You have hit on pretty much all of them.

Yes...because any team that has sustained excellence regardless of the reason will have many people that hate them for this and only this reason...see Duke for a collegiate example.

Edited September 14, 2019 by matter2003

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

26 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Yes...because any team that has sustained excellence regardless of the reason will have many people that hate them for this and only this reason...see Duke for a collegiate example.

I disagree, did the rest of the country hate the Steelers, 49ers or Cowboys? 

[Chris66]

1 minute ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I disagree, did the rest of the country hate the Steelers, 49ers or Cowboys? 

Those dynasties didnt have the internet or social media, but my quess would be yes.

[Tiffany980]

On 9/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, Shaw66 said:

 

I’ve been commenting for weeks about first this thing and then that thing that the Bills are doing like the Patriots.  The examples are everywhere:

 

1.  The do-your-job mentality.

2.  The offensive coordinator with the Patriot pedigree

3.  The multiple shifts and offensive formations.

4.  The solid tackling, stifling defense running out of the same sets most of the time.

5.  The attention to detail.

6.  The preparation for every situation.

 

There are plenty of examples. 

 

I was thinking today about being happy to be a Bills fan instead of a Patriots fan.  It’s an odd thought, I know, given the relative levels of success the two franchises have had over the past twenty years.  I’d love to have the Patriots’ success, and as I’ve said often in the past few months, I actually believe that success is coming for the Bills. 

 

In New England, however, that success came out of an amoral culture.   Too much has happened to support any other conclusion:

 

1.  The Patriots had a murderer on their roster.  A flat-out, cold blooded murderer.

2.  The Patriots have a big-time drug addict on their roster.  Now, I know taking drugs isn’t immoral, and I know there are other people with drug issues in the league, but drug addiction often is symptomatic of other behavioral issues. Josh Gordon has those symptoms.

3.  The Patriots have, if you can believe the latest news, a rapist on their roster.  A rapist who, by the way, quit on his first team and quit on his second team.

4.  The Patriots are owned by a billionaire who, for his personal pleasure, encourages sex-trafficking of poor women from other countries.  

5.  The Patriots coach, for all those things I admire about him, is a cheater.   His obsession with winning takes him beyond clearly delineated rules.  He isn’t gentleman enough to behave morally.  He often talks as though he respects the game and it’s past, but if he really respected it, he wouldn’t cheat.  And that’s perfectly okay with his owner who, despite his good press, clearly respects winning more than he respects people. 

 

Any one or two of those things, okay, I get it.  Nobody’s perfect.  The Bill have a guy who’s been in prison.  Richie Incognito had his issues.   Duke Williams wasn’t a choir boy.  The difference is, the Bills acquired those players and have kept them AFTER they’ve demonstrated that they’ve put those issues behind them.  And they’ve actively rid themselves of players, like Incognito, who can’t continue to behave.  The guys the Bills have are model citizens, and they are that way because McDermott and Beane wouldn’t have it any other way.   It’s important to them, and I suspect it’s important to the Pegulas, too, that the players on their team be good people as well as good players.  With the Patriots, the inquiry seems to stop at the good players test.  And it’s not surprising, when the owner has such blatant disregard for the people he uses and abuses for his own personal pleasure. 

 

They can keep their rings.  I’ll take the Bills. 

 

Go BILLS!

OK... Normal fanboy nonsense is fine... However outright and blatant lies should not be tolerated by ANY fanbase.

1. Hernandez... Cut immediately once his crimes committed in the OFF SEASON were exposed.  The Ravens built Ray Lewis a statue...

2. Josh Gordon... He has issues for sure. Finally, he has a support system help him.

3. Antonio Clown... The alleged event happened when he was a Steeler. 2 years ago...

4. Kraft... Morons continue to claim sex trafficking, etc, even though it was well known at the time that there was none...

5. BB .. .No one has ever been able to prove that there was ever any cheating. Because there never was. Simpletons continue to make things up 

 

[BigDingus]

On 9/11/2019 at 4:17 PM, Shaw66 said:

 

I’ve been commenting for weeks about first this thing and then that thing that the Bills are doing like the Patriots.  The examples are everywhere:

 

1.  The do-your-job mentality.

2.  The offensive coordinator with the Patriot pedigree

3.  The multiple shifts and offensive formations.

4.  The solid tackling, stifling defense running out of the same sets most of the time.

5.  The attention to detail.

6.  The preparation for every situation.

 

There are plenty of examples. 

 

I was thinking today about being happy to be a Bills fan instead of a Patriots fan.  It’s an odd thought, I know, given the relative levels of success the two franchises have had over the past twenty years.  I’d love to have the Patriots’ success, and as I’ve said often in the past few months, I actually believe that success is coming for the Bills. 

 

In New England, however, that success came out of an amoral culture.   Too much has happened to support any other conclusion:

 

1.  The Patriots had a murderer on their roster.  A flat-out, cold blooded murderer.

2.  The Patriots have a big-time drug addict on their roster.  Now, I know taking drugs isn’t immoral, and I know there are other people with drug issues in the league, but drug addiction often is symptomatic of other behavioral issues. Josh Gordon has those symptoms.

3.  The Patriots have, if you can believe the latest news, a rapist on their roster.  A rapist who, by the way, quit on his first team and quit on his second team.

4.  The Patriots are owned by a billionaire who, for his personal pleasure, encourages sex-trafficking of poor women from other countries.  

5.  The Patriots coach, for all those things I admire about him, is a cheater.   His obsession with winning takes him beyond clearly delineated rules.  He isn’t gentleman enough to behave morally.  He often talks as though he respects the game and it’s past, but if he really respected it, he wouldn’t cheat.  And that’s perfectly okay with his owner who, despite his good press, clearly respects winning more than he respects people. 

 

Any one or two of those things, okay, I get it.  Nobody’s perfect.  The Bill have a guy who’s been in prison.  Richie Incognito had his issues.   Duke Williams wasn’t a choir boy.  The difference is, the Bills acquired those players and have kept them AFTER they’ve demonstrated that they’ve put those issues behind them.  And they’ve actively rid themselves of players, like Incognito, who can’t continue to behave.  The guys the Bills have are model citizens, and they are that way because McDermott and Beane wouldn’t have it any other way.   It’s important to them, and I suspect it’s important to the Pegulas, too, that the players on their team be good people as well as good players.  With the Patriots, the inquiry seems to stop at the good players test.  And it’s not surprising, when the owner has such blatant disregard for the people he uses and abuses for his own personal pleasure. 

 

They can keep their rings.  I’ll take the Bills. 

 

Go BILLS!

 

In 20 years, you named a handful of specific, tiny elements to an otherwise good organization that most every other team strives to be like.

Taking  a chance on Josh Gordan? Have you heard how much effort Brady put forth to make him feel supported, helped and like a part of the team? Instead of demonizing a guy who smokes pot too much, you can say they're trying to improve him as a person rather than just giving up on him. Also, how many Super Bowls did Josh Gordan win them (or even play in)?

The Bills stuck with Dareus far longer than the Pats had Gordon, and unlike the Pats, we even gave Dareus a massive contract in spite of known issues. Why do you think we only got a 6th for him? Because he already had been suspended so many times, the next one would be an entire season gone! The Pats picking up Gordon for nothing off the streets is just an all-upside move. They lose nothing if he couldn't change his ways. Unlike us, who were stuck with a huge friggin contract that screwed our cap for several years.

 

Blaming the Pats for Aaron Hernandez is ridiculous. They were as fast as possible in cutting the guy once the accusations came to light. Also, please tell me how many rings Hernandez helped them win? Oh, he played in 1 Super Bowl...in which they lost.

In the past 20 years, a lot of teams have unfortunately had a murderer, sexual abuser, person who committed domestic assault, drug addicts, etc. Some give these people a much needed second chance, others encourage & dismiss bad behavior. Michael Vick ran a dog fighting ring, served 2 years in jail, then was given another chance by the Eagles. Does that mean the Eagles are s*** organization? Not at all.

And man, are you REALLY pushing propaganda here giving the Pats ANY hate for Antonio Brown! The guy has been on their roster for what, a week!? On top of that, it's been made VERY CLEAR that the Pats (and the rest of the entire league) had ZERO idea of what accusations were about to come to light about him. Brown & his agent hid those from teams.

In an age where people CONSTANTLY whine about how this country has turned into a "guilty until proven innocent" or "convicted via social media" place, here you are already acting as if the guy has been convicted of rape, and that it had ANY relationship to the Pats, their rings, their success, or their culture. As a Bills fan, I'm ashamed I even read such garbage from a poster I have a ton of respect for.

It's laughable that people still resort to "cheater! cheater! cheater!" when talking about the Belichick. It's so insecure and stupid at this point, and just shows an inability to accept when a coach is just that much better than everyone else. 6 Super Bowl wins, 9 appearances, 1 coach. The spygate thing was soooooo long ago. People can live in fairytale land all they want, but Belichick & Brady didn't win 6 SB's, rack up 30+ wins & a few losses against the Bills, because they were cheating or incapable of winning otherwise. 

They long since dominated the league without any cheating, while other teams have lost draft picks & been fined for far more than anything the Pats have done. Please, bring up "Deflategate" too, where the Pats used deflated balls intentionally for an advantage, yet somehow play 50 x better after the supposed cheating was fixed. EXPOSED!

1. The Bills had an OL coach that committed a crime by punching a kid in the face & kept him around anyway. No class!

2. You're right, the Bills care so much about class. Rex Ryan, the ownership's first HC hire, was the definition of class. Hiring his brother the following year only added to that class.

3. The Bills got fined for not reporting injuries for players in hopes of getting an advantage.

3. They hired Richie Incognito after he was released from the Dolphins for bullying & harassment issues, a guy who already quit on this team once in the past and was known for being dirty around the league. "Changed?" What proof was there that he "changed?" He wasn't in the league to show any change. Ryan just didn't care about character. And look what happened since... The guy isn't right in the head.
4. The Bills signed Shawn Merriman after he was suspended from the Chargers for PEDs. Guess we don't care about character!

5. In 2015 the Bills tried to mess with the Pats by blasting e*xcessively* loud noise at a home game, yet the killed us anyway. Still tried to get an advantage, but didn't help.

6. Nigel Bradham, arrest for drug possession. Must be a thug. Means the organization is crap. Classy.
7. Drafted Marshawn Lynch, suspended for drug issues multiple times, AND driving around with a concealed 9mm semiauto handgun in his vehicle that he was charged for. Class.

8. Drafted Aaron Maybin with a 1st round pick...nothing to do with this post, but seriously WTF, why did that even happen?!

9. Drafted someone who assaulted his gf in Tyrel Dodson. Incident occurred May 25th, yet the Bills kept him on the roster. Must mean the organization is classless!

10. Kept LeSean McCoy around even after McCoy instructed people in his entourage to beat the hell out of his gf. Innocent until proven guilty? Not according to your rules, guilty from accusation alone! Also according to your logic, makes the entire Bills organization classless.

11. We still have a murderer's name on the Wall of Fame, OJ Simpson. Don't think the Pats honor Aaron Hernandez. Guess we're a classless organization for keeping that man's name up there right?

12. Remember OT Seantrel Henderson? Oh yeah, he got suspended for 10 games once for substance abuse. What a druggie, and the Bills kept him!

 

 

.....I mean, i feel like I could go on forever, and it still won't matter.

Anyone who HONESTLY believes the ridiculous stuff said in the original post is too biased to care. The Pats keep winning because they get talented players for cheap, have the GOAT at QB and the GOAT HC, and that GOAT QB never wants to quit playing. That's it. Once Brady hangs it up & players stop going there for discounted rates to play with Brady & chase a ring, they'll be like every other team. The Bills & the rest of the NFL care about winning as much as the Pats do, they're just not as good at it yet.

 

 

[cba fan]

On 9/11/2019 at 4:28 PM, Shaw66 said:

Fair enough.  But

 

1.  I'm talking today, not history, and

2.  OJ wasn't a murderer when he was on the team.  

#2 ?? 

 

how do you know he wasn't??

he got away with murder once didn't he? 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Anyone who HONESTLY believes the ridiculous stuff said in the original post is too biased to care. The Pats keep winning because they get talented players for cheap, have the GOAT at QB and the GOAT HC, and that GOAT QB never wants to quit playing. That's it. Once Brady hangs it up & players stop going there for discounted rates to play with Brady & chase a ring, they'll be like every other team. The Bills & the rest of the NFL care about winning as much as the Pats do, they're just not as good at it yet.

 

 

 

I agreed with a lot in your post but I particularly agreed with this. The Patriots win because Belichick is smarter and Brady is better than the rest of the league put together. And in the final two games of last season the played the best young QB in the league and then the best young HC in the league. They beat them both. 

 

Rather than moaning about it or trying to discredit or devalue any of what the Patriots have done Bills fans should be spending their time looking hard at the decisions McDermott and Beane are making and asking whether they are decisions that put the Bills in position to take over as the AFC's dominant force. I think we are on the right path... but there is still some way to go. 

[JoPoy88]

im just glad we get these threads to remind us Bills’ fans of all our moral superiority and participation trophies.

[Big Turk]

9 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I disagree, did the rest of the country hate the Steelers, 49ers or Cowboys? 

I dunno...that was in the 70s and 80s....i wasnt old enough to know back then.

 

However plenty of people hate the Yankees including me.

[Matt_In_NH]

I hate the Patriots too but this comes across a little whiny to me.   Personally I agree with some of it but totally see it different on some other things.  The second they caught wind the player was involved in a murder, he was off the team, before any investigation, trial, conviction, anything.  They immediately waived him once they knew.   This could have happened on  any team.  Giving chances to a guy like Gordon works for the Patriots given their culture and winning ways.  If he stays clean and performs they win, if he does not he goes away and its next man up.  I think guys like Gordon and A Brown get too many opportunities.  Part of me wishes all teams would ignore them which is the only way to stop the behavior in the future from others.   Particularly with Brown, I wish he would actually suffer real consequences for his behavior and not be on an NFL team.  The guy quit/did not show up for week 17 when they needed to win to make the playoffs, he cant be counted on.  But again with the Patriots culture, they can take him in and get rid of him without it affecting them much.   They have a winning culture/system where no one player can do much damage right now.

 

I hate how Belicheck treats people in the media.  I get it, he does not want to answer certain questions, but he can do it in a more professional manner, it is not that hard.   Does he go over the line?   Yeah probably, but we also have to consider the culture has changed with regards to this.  There used to be a you arn't trying if you arn't cheating attitude in the NFL.  Bounties were the norm, any little advantage you could find (within the rules or not) you took advantage of.  

 

Personally I think there is reason to be optimistic about the Bills but lets let the season play out some more before concluding much.  I do see some of the parallels though.  It seems like they are going to call games/make gameplans based on the matchups rather than just try and ground and pound every game no matter the opponent.  You need to be able to pass a lot to win and you need to be able to run more to win, depending on what the other team is doing.  They are taking that philosophy which is great.

[Shaw66]

10 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Pats keep winning because they get talented players for cheap, have the GOAT at QB and the GOAT HC, and that GOAT QB never wants to quit playing. That's it. Once Brady hangs it up & players stop going there for discounted rates to play with Brady & chase a ring, they'll be like every other team. The Bills & the rest of the NFL care about winning as much as the Pats do, they're just not as good at it yet.

 

 

I think you and a lot of other people jumped to the wrong conclusion about what I said.

 

I completely and totally agree with what I quoted above.  I never said and never I tended to say their success came because they cheated lied or were immoral.  I think what they have accomplished is incredible.  I think McD is trying to copy a lot of it and I'm fine with that.  

 

What I said is that they are amoral, and I said I don't like that.  They aren't gentlemen and they aren't sportsmen, and I dont like that.  They don't care about treating opponents and other people fairly; they just care about winning. I dont like that

 

I think if you asked McD about this and he talked candidly, he would tell you that his objective is to build a successful team that has bgh higher goals than the Pat's.  It would be a team that honors and respects all people, doesn't lie and doesn't cheat.  I think he would say that winning at all costs is NOT what he wants.

 

I know that makes it harder; winning without morality is easier.  McD just has a higher standard. I like that and it makes me proud of my team.

 

I think it was clear I was talking about the current regimes, not prior ownership or management.  So I'm not interested in all of your pre-McD arguments. 

[Chris66]

Shaw I think your looking at this the wrong way. Its a sport only in the sense that the business is competition, but if you ask 32 owners they will tell you its a business first and like any successfull business its sole purpose is to make money. In this business winning makes money.