Pats can keep their rings; I'll take the Bills

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

And two years isn’t enough time to say these guys are “moral.” They inquired into Brown after all. No, a deal wasn’t close, but it’s accepted that Beane at least made inquiries to Pitt on AB. So strike one against that argument. 

Inquiries are not hirings.  So no , it is not strike one.  It is ball one.  What if in his inquiry red flags came up on his conduct and they decided to pass?

[JoPoy88]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Inquiries are not hirings.  So no , it is not strike one.  It is ball one.  What if in his inquiry red flags came up on his conduct and they decided to pass?

Yes yes move the goalposts some more. Lol

[oldmanfan]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

Yes yes move the goalposts some more. Lol

Let’s deal with facts.  The Bills took a look before the latest crap and said no.  The Pats said yes even after the latest crap.  That’s reality.

[JoPoy88]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Let’s deal with facts.  The Bills took a look before the latest crap and said no.  The Pats said yes even after the latest crap.  That’s reality.

The original argument was that the OP would rather have this “moral” regime than the “amoral” pats and their 6 rings. Inquiring into AB after he quit on his team last year doesn’t ring as promoting all the BS mcdermott promotes publicly. If you say the deal wasn’t closed so it doesn’t count I’d call you a liar and a hypocrite.

[PlayoffsPlease]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Fair enough.  But

 

1.  I'm talking today, not history, and

2.  OJ wasn't a murderer when he was on the team.  

Raises an interesting question.  Is a murderer only a murderer after the fact? or was it in the nature of the person all along? 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

The original argument was that the OP would rather have this “moral” regime than the “amoral” pats and their 6 rings. Inquiring into AB after he quit on his team last year doesn’t ring as promoting all the BS mcdermott promotes publicly. If you say the deal wasn’t closed so it doesn’t count I’d call you a liar and a hypocrite.

Calling people liars because they don’t happen to concur with your slant on things is ridiculous and you should be glad you’re not doing that to my face.  

 

Shaw was quite clear that this regime has had some guys with questionable stuff, Incognito being an example.  What happened there was Terry and Kim had to be convinced by Richie that he had learned from his previous stuff and would straighten up.  And he did.  And while we can’t know for sure when they renegotiated his contract it may be they saw chinks in Richie’s armor and wanted to start guarding against that if he went off the deep end.  Which he did and then was gone.

 

Will this regime be perfect?  Maybe not, none are.  Will they be as Shaw states as amoral as the Pats?  Not a chance.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Shaw’s point is about the current regime.  I wish people would not lump different owners/GMs/HCs together.

Not true he is talking about your support for a franchise.  Would it be great to win a championship with all high character guys?  Sure.  But it is a 53 man roster with another 20+ in coaches.  If you don't think there are some bad apples in that bunch it just isn't reality.  

 

Portland can be ashamed of the JailBlazers but that team won and the arena was packed.  When they got rid of those players and starting losing, the fans stayed away.

 

16 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Let’s deal with facts.  The Bills took a look before the latest crap and said no.  The Pats said yes even after the latest crap.  That’s reality.

Facts are Bills said no after AB said no.  Bills would have said yes in a heart beat. 

[GoFlamesGo]

If you appreciate honest, honorable and noble completion, you can't help but find the Patriots to be as lousy as it gets. It would be tough to cheer for them honestly.

 

The cheating scandal in the 2000s can't be overstated. No team had ever been penalized for something so severely, WITHOUT the public ever getting to see what actually happened. It's unfathomable, and makes me question things that have even happened since (for those wondering, Seattle never ran that particular rub pass play in the red zone once all year, yet the Patriots' own 'do your job' video shows them Super Bowl week practicing against it vs scout team IN THE RED ZONE). I personally know someone who I fully trust who was on their inside that confirmed they knew the Rams red zone plans in 2001. There's so much smoke surrounding the Patriots and Belichick that it's virtually impossible to conceive they'll every fight you square. The AB rape thing is actually in my mind less of an indictment on them than the scheme they used to get him in the first place. Almost identical to what they did for Blount (but much higher profile), it's an under-handed, scumbag tactic that's almost impossible to prove tampering against and yet rewards them.

 

For Patriots and their fans, at this point, their only defense is that everyone else cheats or tries to cheat too. They're just the best at it. Or that you are spouting conspiracy theories. But the FACTS of their run again include so much smoke, it's nearly impossible to conclude there isn't/wasn't a serious fire. Draw whatever conclusions you would like, I guess. Nothing and nobodies minds are changing.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Not true he is talking about your support for a franchise.  Would it be great to win a championship with all high character guys?  Sure.  But it is a 53 man roster with another 20+ in coaches.  If you don't think there are some bad apples in that bunch it just isn't reality.  

 

Portland can be ashamed of the JailBlazers but that team won and the arena was packed.  When they got rid of those players and starting losing, the fans stayed away.

 

You are wrong.  Go back to the OP and Shaw specifically refers to Pegula, McD, and Beane.

 

Is everyone on the roster and coaching staff going to be perfect?  No.  Shaw and I both mentioned Incognito as a guy they took inafter frank conversations with him.  

 

I don’t think you read the OP before posting this.

5 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Not true he is talking about your support for a franchise.  Would it be great to win a championship with all high character guys?  Sure.  But it is a 53 man roster with another 20+ in coaches.  If you don't think there are some bad apples in that bunch it just isn't reality.  

 

Portland can be ashamed of the JailBlazers but that team won and the arena was packed.  When they got rid of those players and starting losing, the fans stayed away.

 

Facts are Bills said no after AB said no.  Bills would have said yes in a heart beat. 

Regarding the latter that can be disputed to put it mildly.

[LSHMEAB]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Shaw, you’re better than this nonsense.

 

1. Hernandez was released 2 hours after he was arrested. 

2. Every NFL team is loading these guys up with pills and pain killers on a weekly or even daily basis. The NFL’s drug and PED policy is an absolute joke.

3. The AB stuff is probably your strongest point given his actions the last year. However, your talking as though he’s already been convicted of rape. 

4. Where was it revealed Kraft was involved in or even encouraged sex trafficking?

 

Trent Murphy busted for PEDs. Tyrel Dodson arrested for domestic related charges after allegedly getting physical with his girlfriend. Beane even tried to go after AB whom you’ve already deemed to be a rapist. 

 

I would rather have 6 SB rings than a locker room full of choir boys who all get along. But that’s just me though. 

I'm in the same boat. It's complicated. While I understand the rationale of wanting to support a team full of "good guys," I don't really care. I mean, I'm supporting a team so I understand to an extent the perspective of wanting to win with good guys. I just don't personally care all that much. What I want to see is the Bills WIN a lot of games. That portends well for the city of Buffalo more than a team full of choir boys. I'll give Shaw credit; this makes you think. At the end of the day, W's and L's are all that matter to me.

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Calling people liars because they don’t happen to concur with your slant on things is ridiculous and you should be glad you’re not doing that to my face.  

 

Shaw was quite clear that this regime has had some guys with questionable stuff, Incognito being an example.  What happened there was Terry and Kim had to be convinced by Richie that he had learned from his previous stuff and would straighten up.  And he did.  And while we can’t know for sure when they renegotiated his contract it may be they saw chinks in Richie’s armor and wanted to start guarding against that if he went off the deep end.  Which he did and then was gone.

 

Will this regime be perfect?  Maybe not, none are.  Will they be as Shaw states as amoral as the Pats?  Not a chance.

 

Well we’ll give it 18 more years and see. The premise is flawed, especially when you’re now dealing in relative “morality.” Incognito? AB? isolated incidents. With the pats he points to specific players and incidents which could, over the course of 20 years, could also be considered isolated. Again, sample size. Look at the Bengals in comparison or Cleveland recently. Where’s the hate for them?

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

Well we’ll give it 18 more years and see. The premise is flawed, especially when you’re now dealing in relative “morality.” Incognito? AB? isolated incidents. With the pats he points to specific players and incidents which could, over the course of 20 years, could also be considered isolated. Again, sample size. Look at the Bengals in comparison or Cleveland recently. Where’s the hate for them?

It is not sample size, it is the approach each regime takes.  That is independent of sample size.  Do you think based on what you know of Terry Pegula that he would be serviced by immigrant women in a massage parlor?  Do you think based on what we know of McD and Beane they would allow their employees to deliberately deflate footballs to gain an illegal advantage?  Would they put up with Allen then lying about it?  Would they illegally film other teams’ practices? Would they do that?

 

You are taking one guy in Brown, a guy they did not sign,  a guy they did not bring in, and trying to say that means they are likely no different that the Pats, who not only did all the above but brought this guy in after all the nonsense with the Raiders and still plan to play him after these latest allegations.  You really think that comes close to equivalence?

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

 

What’s your point?

 

 

I honestly have no idea regarding the circumstances of his suspensions. You’d have to assume it was pretty severe though.

 

 

Regardless, if you want to hate on AB because of his recent actions with the Steelers and Raiders then I’m right there with you. But to call the guy a rapist and treat him as though he’s guilty just because of an allegation seems like an agenda.

 

 

And this somehow proves he encouraged or was directly involved in the human trafficking? He was arrested for paying for a handjob at the establishment being investigated. I don’t recall him ever being charged for trafficking or even being associated it.

My point is that you wrote “Hernandez was released two days after his arrest”, but the ultimate outcome was his death.

 

If you have “no idea regarding the circumstances of his suspension “  why comment on condoned drug abuse?

 

I don’t hate Antonio Brown, I don’t know him. I don’t have an agenda. My speculation based upon what I’ve read is an opinion. 

 

Are you of the belief that men who pay for sex with women,who have been forced into prostitution through human trafficking, are not culpable?

[JoPoy88]

59 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

It is not sample size, it is the approach each regime takes.  That is independent of sample size.  Do you think based on what you know of Terry Pegula that he would be serviced by immigrant women in a massage parlor?  Do you think based on what we know of McD and Beane they would allow their employees to deliberately deflate footballs to gain an illegal advantage?  Would they put up with Allen then lying about it?  Would they illegally film other teams’ practices? Would they do that?

 

You are taking one guy in Brown, a guy they did not sign,  a guy they did not bring in, and trying to say that means they are likely no different that the Pats, who not only did all the above but brought this guy in after all the nonsense with the Raiders and still plan to play him after these latest allegations.  You really think that comes close to equivalence?

 

You’re putting it in a slightly different way now and I can get with this a bit more. 

 

Still, there’s some hindsight in your reply - no I dont think Terry would get caught doing what Kraft did, but honestly I didn’t think Kraft was going to get caught for that either.

 

And I agree completely about the other players on the team. I love Tre, Lorax, Allen, Gore, all the current leaders on the team. AND YET - we don’t REALLY know them. But I’d be shocked if any of those guys I named were accused of anything close to what AB is facing.

[transplantbillsfan]

Great post, Shaw.

 

I honestly can't believe all the dark clouds that have hovered over that organization since Spygate.

 

They've won 6 Super Bowls and they're pretty much media darlings now, but I really do wonder how history will view them 20-30 years from now.

 

It's crazy though because I think without a lot of their cheating and scumbaggery they still win at least 4 Super Bowls with Brady and Bellicheck...

 

or do they???

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

My point is that you wrote “Hernandez was released two days after his arrest”, but the ultimate outcome was his death.

 

I don’t understand the connection you’re trying to make here.

 

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

If you have “no idea regarding the circumstances of his suspension “  why comment on condoned drug abuse?

 

The opioid use in the NFL has been reported in good detail by former players. Also reported was the drug testing policy and how players are advised in advance as to when to expect a test. I don’t understand how not knowing the circumstances regarding a single player’s suspension is relevant.

 

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

Are you of the belief that men who pay for sex with women,who have been forced into prostitution through human trafficking, are not culpable?

 

Was it reported that Kraft knew of the human trafficking (or alleged trafficking...don’t remember if it was actually proven) and still paid for their services? 

[4_kidd_4]

Well ain’t this some sad azz schlock. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I’ve been commenting for weeks about first this thing and then that thing that the Bills are doing like the Patriots.  The examples are everywhere:

 

1.  The do-your-job mentality.

2.  The offensive coordinator with the Patriot pedigree

3.  The multiple shifts and offensive formations.

4.  The solid tackling, stifling defense running out of the same sets most of the time.

5.  The attention to detail.

6.  The preparation for every situation.

 

There are plenty of examples. 

 

I was thinking today about being happy to be a Bills fan instead of a Patriots fan.  It’s an odd thought, I know, given the relative levels of success the two franchises have had over the past twenty years.  I’d love to have the Patriots’ success, and as I’ve said often in the past few months, I actually believe that success is coming for the Bills. 

 

In New England, however, that success came out of an amoral culture.   Too much has happened to support any other conclusion:

 

1.  The Patriots had a murderer on their roster.  A flat-out, cold blooded murderer.

2.  The Patriots have a big-time drug addict on their roster.  Now, I know taking drugs isn’t immoral, and I know there are other people with drug issues in the league, but drug addiction often is symptomatic of other behavioral issues. Josh Gordon has those symptoms.

3.  The Patriots have, if you can believe the latest news, a rapist on their roster.  A rapist who, by the way, quit on his first team and quit on his second team.

4.  The Patriots are owned by a billionaire who, for his personal pleasure, encourages sex-trafficking of poor women from other countries.  

5.  The Patriots coach, for all those things I admire about him, is a cheater.   His obsession with winning takes him beyond clearly delineated rules.  He isn’t gentleman enough to behave morally.  He often talks as though he respects the game and it’s past, but if he really respected it, he wouldn’t cheat.  And that’s perfectly okay with his owner who, despite his good press, clearly respects winning more than he respects people. 

 

Any one or two of those things, okay, I get it.  Nobody’s perfect.  The Bill have a guy who’s been in prison.  Richie Incognito had his issues.   Duke Williams wasn’t a choir boy.  The difference is, the Bills acquired those players and have kept them AFTER they’ve demonstrated that they’ve put those issues behind them.  And they’ve actively rid themselves of players, like Incognito, who can’t continue to behave.  The guys the Bills have are model citizens, and they are that way because McDermott and Beane wouldn’t have it any other way.   It’s important to them, and I suspect it’s important to the Pegulas, too, that the players on their team be good people as well as good players.  With the Patriots, the inquiry seems to stop at the good players test.  And it’s not surprising, when the owner has such blatant disregard for the people he uses and abuses for his own personal pleasure. 

 

They can keep their rings.  I’ll take the Bills. 

 

Go BILLS!

 

yes but know is the time for Rings.

 

 

[BuffaloButt]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I’ve been commenting for weeks about first this thing and then that thing that the Bills are doing like the Patriots.  The examples are everywhere:

 

1.  The do-your-job mentality.

2.  The offensive coordinator with the Patriot pedigree

3.  The multiple shifts and offensive formations.

4.  The solid tackling, stifling defense running out of the same sets most of the time.

5.  The attention to detail.

6.  The preparation for every situation.

 

There are plenty of examples. 

 

I was thinking today about being happy to be a Bills fan instead of a Patriots fan.  It’s an odd thought, I know, given the relative levels of success the two franchises have had over the past twenty years.  I’d love to have the Patriots’ success, and as I’ve said often in the past few months, I actually believe that success is coming for the Bills. 

 

In New England, however, that success came out of an amoral culture.   Too much has happened to support any other conclusion:

 

1.  The Patriots had a murderer on their roster.  A flat-out, cold blooded murderer.

2.  The Patriots have a big-time drug addict on their roster.  Now, I know taking drugs isn’t immoral, and I know there are other people with drug issues in the league, but drug addiction often is symptomatic of other behavioral issues. Josh Gordon has those symptoms.

3.  The Patriots have, if you can believe the latest news, a rapist on their roster.  A rapist who, by the way, quit on his first team and quit on his second team.

4.  The Patriots are owned by a billionaire who, for his personal pleasure, encourages sex-trafficking of poor women from other countries.  

5.  The Patriots coach, for all those things I admire about him, is a cheater.   His obsession with winning takes him beyond clearly delineated rules.  He isn’t gentleman enough to behave morally.  He often talks as though he respects the game and it’s past, but if he really respected it, he wouldn’t cheat.  And that’s perfectly okay with his owner who, despite his good press, clearly respects winning more than he respects people. 

 

Any one or two of those things, okay, I get it.  Nobody’s perfect.  The Bill have a guy who’s been in prison.  Richie Incognito had his issues.   Duke Williams wasn’t a choir boy.  The difference is, the Bills acquired those players and have kept them AFTER they’ve demonstrated that they’ve put those issues behind them.  And they’ve actively rid themselves of players, like Incognito, who can’t continue to behave.  The guys the Bills have are model citizens, and they are that way because McDermott and Beane wouldn’t have it any other way.   It’s important to them, and I suspect it’s important to the Pegulas, too, that the players on their team be good people as well as good players.  With the Patriots, the inquiry seems to stop at the good players test.  And it’s not surprising, when the owner has such blatant disregard for the people he uses and abuses for his own personal pleasure. 

 

They can keep their rings.  I’ll take the Bills. 

 

Go BILLS!

I understand what you're saying and I love our Bill's too!  It will be all that much greater someday if we can win it all with this team and leadership!

 

Go Bills!!!!

1 minute ago, BuffaloButt said:

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by BuffaloButt

[nucci]

I'll take the rings