Zay Jones blocking ability - I’m impressed

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Yeah Rodak sucks 

Facts and opinions.  

Agreed, he sucks at both of those!

[Ethan in Cleveland]

11 hours ago, Nelius said:

 

I think that whiff is the first time I've seen Foster since the preseason started. So much hype for a guy who can seemingly only run in a straight line. He definitely needs to step up, I'd much rather see Duke.

Honestly I'd much rather Foster is catching that pass and not the one being asked to block. Doesn't excuse him from not doing his assignment but it's a poor use of his skill set.

[JoPoy88]

10 hours ago, PaattMaann said:

 

lighten up Francis, I chuckled heartily at that guys post. 

 

I’m sure someone like you would

[Teddy KGB]

32 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

I’m sure someone like you would

 

Uncalled for.    

 

No reason to fall apart just because Zay can’t live up to his high draft pick status.   

 

 

[JoPoy88]

54 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Uncalled for.    

 

No reason to fall apart just because Zay can’t live up to his high draft pick status.   

 

 

To each his own. Continuing to make fun of someone’s clear mental breakdown, whether brought on by substance use or not, is uncalled for in my eyes, especially when everyone else in the thread was making good, salient points about his actual PLAY on the field. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by JoPoy88

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

You can do the research for yourself. There are plenty of receivers throughout the history of the NFL that have risen above the talent level surrounding them. I have always been a fan of Jones and never posted any real criticisms of him, other than saying, in this thread, he has not consistently played at the level I believe he is capable of, and certainly not at the level you would expect of the 37th overall pick in the draft.

 

It's just my opinion. If you believe otherwise, fine.

 

I think this is pretty fair.  The WR who rise about the talent level around them, are, IMO, the elite WR - the AJ Greens, the Julio Jones - the guys who you watch and say "that guy is making his QB look Goooooood.  Zay does not seem to be on track to become one of these.    In college, he excelled but in what program, against what competition?  Maybe not the best?  Maybe he didn't have to work at his craft as hard to excel as some guys in harder conferences facing a better quality? 

I think we drafted him where we drafted him because his college coach had been tapped to be our WR coach at the time, our GM was a lame duck whose evaluations McDermott didn't fully trust, and the WR coach Phil McGeoghan called in a chip and said "draft this guy".  It may not be a stretch to think that Zay needed to "level up" and refine his game and what help did he have?  WR coaches McGeoghan and Robieskie each lasted only one season, leading one to believe they were not doing a satisfactory job in McDermott's opinion.  Who was there to serve as a good vet example who could help a young player refine his game in the WR room?  Kelvin Benjamin? 

 

So in Zay, I think you have a guy who possibly got over-drafted for his level of college competition and the refinement of his game.  I think he didn't have very good coaching and mentoring his first 2 years in the organization.  This year, I think he's got a great example and helpful teammate in John Brown, he's got a coach who actually played in the league for a few years, and he seems to be taking steps.  He runs good routes, he's getting better at his craft - being able to make good breaks and release better - and he's adding to his contributions with blocking and ST play.

 

So we'll see how he develops, but I think fans have to get over something over which Zay had no control: where he was drafted and who was still on the board.

 

9 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Joking Zay blocks for Jesus isn't necessarily bringing up "the incident" and I think his faith is  germane to any discussion about him being on the team because McD and Beane seem to value intense Christian faith overly positively in their decision making on personnel (see Peterman).  Which I think is insane.  If Zay deserves a spot on the team it should be on his overall game and not just his blocking. There seems to be a lot of excuses thrown his way that other players don't get when they underperform. I'd be happy to see him do well but his faith shouldn't cloud any discussions for the Bills in their evaluation.

 

I think this "faith" thing driving personnel decisions is a fan creation.  I believe what drove decisions on Peterman is his understanding of the game - what he can do at the whiteboard and in the film room.  I mean, no one would call out Gruden for "intense Christian faith" and he evidently saw something in Peterman he really liked.  I think whatever Peterman has in his mental understanding of the game, it's like Catnip for coaches, they just can't resist it. 

 

For the rest-what's the difference between an excuse and a reason?  Who do you think we've had on the roster at WR who is or who has been better than Zay but doesn't get the same slack?

[JoPoy88]

11 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

You can do the research for yourself. There are plenty of receivers throughout the history of the NFL that have risen above the talent level surrounding them. I have always been a fan of Jones and never posted any real criticisms of him, other than saying, in this thread, he has not consistently played at the level I believe he is capable of, and certainly not at the level you would expect of the 37th overall pick in the draft.

 

It's just my opinion. If you believe otherwise, fine.

 

No that’s on me I thought you meant only Bills’ receivers, not league-wide. Which is why I was wondering whom on the Bills in recent history you had in mind. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 9/11/2019 at 12:45 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

Most confusing, is in a game where we threw on every play but one in the first quarter and 37 times total against a weak Jets secondary, why was Zay not on the field a lot for being a starter and only got 3 real targets (2 others were basically throw aways)?  Why did Daboll not feel he needed to be more involved and on the field more in a game we threw so much, and against a team that Zay had a good game against with Barkley last year?

 

Alpha, seriously?  We were running 2 1 sets most of the freakin' game.  If there are only 2 WR on the field, they are going to be named "Brown" and "Beasley".

 

9 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

No that’s on me I thought you meant only Bills’ receivers, not league-wide. Which is why I was wondering whom on the Bills in recent history you had in mind. 

 

I'd like to know his view on this latter point, regardless of whether he initially meant league-wide. 

 

It's no secret I wanted us to make a much bigger push to keep Bob Woods, but he was already gone when Zay got here.

[Kelly the Dog]

Zay Jones is a good and sometimes very good blocker. He's also an excellent tackler, like the tackle he made on Zay Jones on that 20 yarder. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Alpha, seriously?  We were running 2 1 sets most of the freakin' game.  If there are only 2 WR on the field, they are going to be named "Brown" and "Beasley".

 

 

I'd like to know his view on this latter point, regardless of whether he initially meant league-wide. 

 

It's no secret I wanted us to make a much bigger push to keep Bob Woods, but he was already gone when Zay got here.

 

If Zay was a better player he would be on the field more.  Wake me when Zay does something in an actual game that isn’t against the Dolphins.

 

PS:  We weren’t running 2 1 sets last year...yet Zay has 40 or less yards in 10 of the 13 games with Allen, and 22 or less yards in 4 of the 7 games since Allen came back from injury.

 

Seriously how many excuses are you going to make for a 2nd round pick putting up 40 or less yards in 23 of his 32 careers games in which he started almost all of them?  A guy who was still dropping passes and making mistakes in preseason as a 3rd year WR too.  

 

Its up to Zay to show the coaches he needs more reps...it’s up to Zay to silence the criticisms on the field.  

 

But keep the excuse train flowing, haven’t seen this type of spin work since people kept trying to convince me Trent and Fitzpatrick were good when it was clear as day they weren’t.  

Edited September 13, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

The force is strong with this one ^

 

 

?

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

If Zay was a better player he would be on the field more.  Wake me when Zay does something in an actual game that isn’t against the Dolphins.

 

PS:  We weren’t running 2 1 sets last year...yet Zay has 40 or less yards in 10 of the 13 games with Allen, and 22 or less yards in 4 of the 7 games since Allen came back from injury.

 

Seriously how many excuses are you going to make for a 2nd round pick putting up 40 or less yards in 23 of his 32 careers games in which he started almost all of them?  A guy who was still dropping passes and making mistakes in preseason as a 3rd year WR too.  

 

Its up to Zay to show the coaches he needs more reps...it’s up to Zay to silence the criticisms on the field.  

 

But keep the excuse train flowing, haven’t seen this type of spin work since people kept trying to convince me Trent and Fitzpatrick were good when it was clear as day they weren’t.  

 

There are dozens of people here consistently working the same kind of spin for Josh Allen though. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

If Zay was a better player he would be on the field more.  Wake me when Zay does something in an actual game that isn’t against the Dolphins.

 

Wake up.  Zay doesn't make that 20 yd reception on our 2nd TD drive, maybe we don't move the chains and don't score

 

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

PS:  We weren’t running 2 1 sets last year...yet Zay has 40 or less yards in 10 of the 13 games with Allen, and 22 or less yards in 4 of the 7 games since Allen came back from injury.

 

Dude, this sounds all bad and stuff but now you're really forcing stats into your narrative.  Example: in one of those "less than 22 yd" games he was injured and did not play.  I guess it's "excuses" now for a normally available player to miss a game due to injury, and it should be counted against him to not have receiving yards in that game?  SMH.  ?

 

An ordinary fan type could point out that the Bills didn't exactly have a lot of passing offense in those other 5 games, and that in 3 of them Zay was responsible for 30%, 30%, and 43% of the passing offense and had 30-50% more receiving yards than the next WR.  The Bills just did not have a healthy and thriving passing game last year.  There are a number of REASONS for that, including Josh Allen's learning curve, OL talent and play, and overall WR talent and play.

 

But clearly an ordinary fan type would be swept away by the overwhelming force and power of your eloquence and agenda, witnessed by your prediction and very long thread to the effect Zay would not make the opening day roster and the loudly repeated assertion that anyone with a different viewpoint or handful of facts is simply indulging in "spin" while you, with your "less than 22 yards" stat about a game where he didn't even play, are the clear-sighted master of spheroid objectivity
 

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Its up to Zay to show the coaches he needs more reps...it’s up to Zay to silence the criticisms on the field.  

 

No quarrel there...where and who is arguing differently?  Bit of a straw man, eh?

 

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But keep the excuse train flowing, haven’t seen this type of spin work since people kept trying to convince me Trent and Fitzpatrick were good when it was clear as day they weren’t.  

 

I assume you're now going to apply the same "logic" and "reasoning" to people's assessment of Josh Allen?  Isaiah McKensie?  Or is this a targeted campaign, where we only apply this to Zay and no one else?

[Alphadawg7]

37 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

There are dozens of people here consistently working the same kind of spin for Josh Allen though. 

 

You mean our rookie QB who missed 4 games last year, had a terrible OL, no run game support and a 5 min video consisting of dropped passes by his bad collection of WRs last year (which Zay made the most appearances I might add)?

 

The same Josh Allen that is tied for most 4th quarter comebacks since start of 2018 season despite all those factors above?

 

Come on, it’s not really comparable.  Look, I keep trying to leave Zay alone, and I was honestly more critical of Cole week 1 than Zay.  And was also critical of all WRs not named Brown and said the most disappointing player to this point is Foster whose been slowed by turf toe.  

 

But I get it, I started a controversial thread that wound up being a great thread and I have no regrets and can take the criticisms over the prediction.  

 

It’s all good, I earned the heat and I can take it.  But one thing thing though is my criticisms were accurate, and been accurate so far during a shaky preseason and minimal week 1 involvement.  

 

So maybe people should let Zay actually prove the critics wrong before they try and take a victory lap off another sub 20 yard day...which is his norm.

 

PS:  There were a lot more people who agreed with my criticisms than defended him, it’s just the same handful of defenders want to keep engaging me.  Which again, it’s all good, I started a controversial topic and won’t run from the heat.  Although still waiting for Zay to show me what they are defending.  

 

And hand to god, the moment Zay does something good I will be the first praise him.  And I was doing that after his 20 yard catch in 4th quarter Sunday too.  I don’t want him to fail, it just seems that way because so many want to combat me on my opinions of him thus far.  

 

Go Bills!  And honestly, Go Zay!  Let’s have a big week!  

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wake up.  Zay doesn't make that 20 yd reception on our 2nd TD drive, maybe we don't move the chains and don't score

 

 

Dude, this sounds all bad and stuff but now you're really forcing stats into your narrative.  Example: in one of those "less than 22 yd" games he was injured and did not play.  I guess it's "excuses" now for a normally available player to miss a game due to injury, and it should be counted against him to not have receiving yards in that game?  SMH.  ?

 

An ordinary fan type could point out that the Bills didn't exactly have a lot of passing offense in those other 5 games, and that in 3 of them Zay was responsible for 30%, 30%, and 43% of the passing offense and had 30-50% more receiving yards than the next WR.  The Bills just did not have a healthy and thriving passing game last year.  There are a number of REASONS for that, including Josh Allen's learning curve, OL talent and play, and overall WR talent and play.

 

But clearly an ordinary fan type would be swept away by the overwhelming force and power of your eloquence and agenda, witnessed by your prediction and very long thread to the effect Zay would not make the opening day roster and the loudly repeated assertion that anyone with a different viewpoint or handful of facts is simply indulging in "spin" while you, with your "less than 22 yards" stat about a game where he didn't even play, are the clear-sighted master of spheroid objectivity
 

 

No quarrel there...where and who is arguing differently?  Bit of a straw man, eh?

 

 

I assume you're now going to apply the same "logic" and "reasoning" to people's assessment of Josh Allen?  Isaiah McKensie?  Or is this a targeted campaign, where we only apply this to Zay and no one else?

 

Wow, the excuse train on him is getting long with you.  Tell you what, I have explained myself plenty on Zay for anyone to read and know the answer to any question.  

 

Lets just agree to disagree on this.  I respect you as a poster, its cool we see it differently.  But I don't really have the energy to reply to this Al Capone accounting of his meager time here.  

 

We all want the same thing, and honestly hope your more optimistic view on his future is correct, even though your accounting of his performance thus far is not IMO.  

 

And your last question is a pretty silly question...you know me well enough as a poster to know the answer to that.  And I have been high on the Josh Allen train since the moment they called his name.  I even said I liked how they used McKenzie in preseason and hope to see more of it as he didnt get many snaps.  But hey, no one wants to read that and focus on Zay...all good.  But at this point, its played out.  

 

Enough excuses, enough talking.  Just play some damn football Zay and I will be your biggest fan.  But next time someone wants to come at me about Zay, maybe wait until he has done something other than drop passes and miscues in the preseason and show up with 18 yards in week 1.  

 

PS:  I was cheering him on when he made that 4th quarter catch. Y'all make me seem like I hate him because a few are obsessed with defending his meager career thus far to me over and over again.  I actually WANT him to succeed...nothing is more important to me than Allens success, and anyone who can help him on the field is great.  

 

PPS:  I had all the same push back when I said Trent wasn't good, Fitz wasn't good, Stevie was over rated, Josh Allen was the right Josh and Rosen was the worst of the 5 QBs, etc etc.  I was badly wrong on sticking up for Spiller though, I own that.  But like I said...its all good, at some point these debates play out on the field, and lets all hope your side wins.  

 

Go Bills! 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You mean our rookie QB who missed 4 games last year, had a terrible OL, no run game support and a 5 min video consisting of dropped passes by his bad collection of WRs last year (which Zay made the most appearances I might add)?

 

This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say "forcing stats into your narrative".  Zay had the most targets and receptions of any wide receiver on the team (as well as the most receptions) so what is it supposed to prove if he "made the most appearances" in a 5 minute video of drops? 

 

He'd make the most appearances on a video of catches, as well!

Many of those drops by last year's WR corps are bad, but returning to the question of whether people "spin" stuff for Allen....a couple of the WR Allen was throwing to did have  better catch % in previous years with other QB...and in fact had a better catch % for Barkley.  So maybe, just maybe, something rookie Allen was doing made his throws more challenging to catch?  Then I read that piece by Beasley about how he worked with Allen about throwing short passes with more touch so that the WR can make the catch and go "hmmmmm"

 

My point is that people can make observations and come up with explanations, then it's up to the perspective of the people reading if they're "reasons" or "spin"

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say "forcing stats into your narrative".  Zay had the most targets and receptions of any wide receiver on the team (as well as the most receptions) so what is it supposed to prove if he "made the most appearances" in a 5 minute video of drops? 

 

He'd make the most appearances on a video of catches, as well!

Many of those drops by last year's WR corps are bad, but returning to the question of whether people "spin" stuff for Allen....a couple of the WR Allen was throwing to did have  better catch % in previous years with other QB...and in fact had a better catch % for Barkley.  So maybe, just maybe, something rookie Allen was doing made his throws more challenging to catch?  Then I read that piece by Beasley about how he worked with Allen about throwing short passes with more touch so that the WR can make the catch and go "hmmmmm"

 

My point is that people can make observations and come up with explanations, then it's up to the perspective of the people reading if they're "reasons" or "spin"

 

 

See my previous reply. 

 

All good brother, youre a good poster and I respect your reply as its full your thoughts, and not just silliness.  You are just catching me when my Zay jones gas tank is on empty now and I am just over debating it any more.  No disrespect intended, and I have no issue at all with you having a different opinion on this.  I still don't agree with it, but thats heart of a debate, always two sides.

 

Go Bills, Go Zay...really hope those standing up for him win this debate as that would be good for Allen, the Bills, and all us fans...and especially my AFCC game bet, along with my 100-1 Super Bowl bet

 

And nothing would be sweeter than if Zay was the SB MVP.  

 

 

[JoPoy88]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

 

Come on, it’s not really comparable.  Look, I keep trying to leave Zay alone, and I was honestly more critical of Cole week 1 than Zay.  And was also critical of all WRs not named Brown and said the most disappointing player to this point is Foster whose been slowed by turf toe.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you should be. Seriously if Zay had boofed that ball that deflected into an INT and then dropped an easy breadbasket catch later in the game, as Cole did? Holy hell there would be burning pitchforks out for Zay and YOU would be the one leading it. Just be consistent bro I know you can be.

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

 

As you should be. Seriously if Zay had boofed that ball that deflected into an INT and then dropped an easy breadbasket catch later in the game, as Cole did? Holy hell there would be burning pitchforks out for Zay and YOU would be the one leading it. Just be consistent bro I know you can be.

 

I have been consistent and I was harder on Cole.  But no one talking about Cole with me because there is nothing to disagree on.  And Cole has a better resume, so no one is freaking out either off one bad game by him that nearly cost us the game twice.  Y’all the ones obsessed with talking Zay, not me, I am tired of it.  All I have been doing is not hiding from the comments talking to me.  

 

In fact, I only listed Cole as a bad game, not Zay in week 1 recap.   But again, no one pays attention.  

[Teddy KGB]

Chris Godwin blows the doors off Zay again