Bills used 21 personnel more than any other team in the league in week 1

[Rochesterfan]

38 minutes ago, GG said:

 

That’s what gets me about this debate, thinking that DiMarco is a useful gadget RB.  It failed badly on Sunday and will fail more now that there’s tape.

 

 

You keep saying this and I just do not understand your point.  

 

No one is suggesting he is some type of super, useful gadget RB - he is used for a specific purpose and there is no one else on the roster to do that.

 

Having DiMarco in the game as part of a 2RB/1TE helps keep the base defense on the field.  By spreading him out they are not looking at him to be a mismatch - they are using him to determine the coverage and in many cases pull a LB out to cover him.  If as in the Jets game, they don’t cover him - then they will us him for a free 5 yards.

 

They are not expecting him to have 100 yard receiving games or something.  The nice piece with using Dimarco is if they do go Nickel because of the passing game - you can pull the formation tight and have a strong running attack with a lead full back.  When the stay wide - They have WR/TE routes that are both Man beaters or zone beaters - so based on the coverage Josh knows Man vs Zone and has limited area to read.  

 

I understand with the turnovers it did not finish the way they wanted, but they were consistently moving the ball getting into FG range.

 

As the season progresses- I expect in they think they have an advantage using Yeldon - they will adjust.  I also expect to see a lot of 1RB/2TE formations as we move along - all to do the exact same thing - dictate coverage and get teams into a more vanilla scheme.

[BuffaloBill]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

You literally called the 2003 Bills offense we are discussing the "run and shoot".

 

I've seen some dumb things said on this board but that might take the cake.

 

Again.......they went out and got Mark Campbell and Sam Gash to play 21 personnel as their primary and they ran a lot of stuff that looked like what we saw yesterday.

 

And by midseason fans were madder than Buddy Ryan when Gilbride WAS running the R&S.

 

 

 

 

You’re the one who is comparing the Bills current system to the one deployed by Gilbride in 2003, not me.  The two are common only in that they had QB, C, RG, LG, RT, LT.  How the rest of the positions are deployed is completely different.  You made the comparison yet have failed to logically explain how Gilbride’s career long deemphasis of TE play compares to what Dabol is doing currently with the Bills.

 

Once again you become enraptured with your own commentary and then begin to intermingle it with what others have intelligently pointed out as your baseless points.  You then begin to turn other’s commentary as if it is your own.  A rather lacking tactic.

 

 

[GG]

20 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

You keep saying this and I just do not understand your point.  

 

No one is suggesting he is some type of super, useful gadget RB - he is used for a specific purpose and there is no one else on the roster to do that.

 

Having DiMarco in the game as part of a 2RB/1TE helps keep the base defense on the field.  By spreading him out they are not looking at him to be a mismatch - they are using him to determine the coverage and in many cases pull a LB out to cover him.  If as in the Jets game, they don’t cover him - then they will us him for a free 5 yards.

 

They are not expecting him to have 100 yard receiving games or something.  The nice piece with using Dimarco is if they do go Nickel because of the passing game - you can pull the formation tight and have a strong running attack with a lead full back.  When the stay wide - They have WR/TE routes that are both Man beaters or zone beaters - so based on the coverage Josh knows Man vs Zone and has limited area to read.  

 

I understand with the turnovers it did not finish the way they wanted, but they were consistently moving the ball getting into FG range.

 

As the season progresses- I expect in they think they have an advantage using Yeldon - they will adjust.  I also expect to see a lot of 1RB/2TE formations as we move along - all to do the exact same thing - dictate coverage and get teams into a more vanilla scheme.

 

Then why are there threads and posts dedicated to DiMarco being Daboll’s Swiss Army knife?

 

I fully understand what Daboll is trying to do with him, but DiMarco’s athletic ability truly limits his role.  Jets more than happily gave up the easy 4 yard plays and were biding their time on play consuming drives waiting for a Josh Allen mistake.  That worked perfectly in the first half.  When Daboll changed up the offense to play to the strength of his players and created true mismatches, the Bills finally scored.

 

Daboll doesn’t have a choice right now but to play DiMarco in that role.  I fully expect his snaps to go down when Kroft is back and when the rookie TEs are no longer green.

Edited September 11, 2019 by GG

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

You’re the one who is comparing the Bills current system to the one deployed by Gilbride in 2003, not me.  The two are common only in that they had QB, C, RG, LG, RT, LT.  How the rest of the positions are deployed is completely different.  You made the comparison yet have failed to logically explain how Gilbride’s career long deemphasis of TE play compares to what Dabol is doing currently with the Bills.

 

Once again you become enraptured with your own commentary and then begin to intermingle it with what others have intelligently pointed out as your baseless points.  You then begin to turn other’s commentary as if it is your own.  A rather lacking tactic.

 

 

 

 

Again........you said that Gilbride was operating the run and shoot in Buffalo in 2003.

 

Utter stupidity.

 

You clearly had no idea or recollection and just wanted to argue with me.

 

If you watched that 2003 season and you saw DiMarco being split out wide over and over and didn't see Sam Gash then you didn't see it or have an awful memory.

 

It became perhaps the defining characteristic of Gilbride in Buffalo.

 

You are hung up on this TE thing........the Bills completed 3 passes to the TE for 36 yards on Sunday.........it was by no means a clinic on TE usage.

 

[BuffaloBill]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Again........you said that Gilbride was operating the run and shoot in Buffalo in 2003.

 

Utter stupidity.

 

You clearly had no idea or recollection and just wanted to argue with me.

 

You are hung up on this TE thing........the Bills completed 3 passes to the TE for 36 yards on Sunday.........it was by no means a clinic on TE usage.

 

 

 

Do TE’s only catch balls or are they also part of the blocking scheme?

 

Ok, rhetorical question but again in your desire to hold to your own failed arguments you miss the boat.

 

I’m out.... we’ve played this exchange enough.  You always hold dearly to your own commentary, no matter how wrong it is, so I should not expect otherwise. 

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yep......if they score a lot of points defenses will adjust to what they are doing.

 

17 points ain't many..........that's not gonna do it.

 

They averaged 17 last year and finished with a -105 point differential.

Right but my point is what they were doing was working.  Self inflicted errors erased 4 scoring chances in the first half.  That is the prerequisite needed to force a change by the defense.

[BADOLBILZ]

48 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

Do TE’s only catch balls or are they also part of the blocking scheme?

 

Ok, rhetorical question but again in your desire to hold to your own failed arguments you miss the boat.

 

I’m out.... we’ve played this exchange enough.  You always hold dearly to your own commentary, no matter how wrong it is, so I should not expect otherwise. 

 

 

And Mark Campbell did PLENTY of blocking for Buffalo in 2003.    He was EXTENSIVELY used.

 

Again......they played base 21 personnel.........NOT the "run and shoot".

 

You can't declare that they ran the R&S and then come back from that and then try to be like "you are missing the point it's about the TE's".

 

32 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Right but my point is what they were doing was working.  Self inflicted errors erased 4 scoring chances in the first half.  That is the prerequisite needed to force a change by the defense.

 

 

Turnovers are almost always the result of poor execution.

 

Allen also threw another interception that was called back for something that happened away from the play and he threw another one that was dropped and a few others that were pretty dangerous.

 

It was UGLY for 3 quarters.

 

Then Moseley went out and they changed their plan of attack and went easily thru a Jets D that was suddenly bad at BOTH CB and LB.

[3rdand12]

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

My thing wrt offensive 'looks' that are working for other teams now and in the recent past has been having one standout/elite talent at either the TE or RB position. Some of the best and most effective offensive groupings I can recall offhand (at least ones that were used consistently and to good effect) were the Eagles 2TE set w/ Ertz and Godert and Saints 22 running Kamara/Ingram and Cook/Hill, and those were great because respectively Ertz is a superduper talent esp when you have to decide defensively to cover with a DB or LB and Saints are so dangerous when Kamara is a pass option if you stay in nickle the check to Ingram kills if your tight ends can block even marginally. Protecting your most dangerous offensive talents by lining up in a package that keeps them 'multiple' is a great way of maximizing talent even if they don't necessarily end up w/the ball.

 

Far as Bills...we lack a Thomas-like wideout that can be the backbreaker option if the defense sells out on containing Kamara leaving him in single coverage, or a receiving TE threat to match the way Eagles have with Goedert because one of either him or Ertz is getting checked by nickle corner or safety which is a mismatch either way. If the Bills are going to continue using a bunch of 2RB/1TE (which I believe they will because it's arguably the grouping that gives most offensive options with speed guy like Brown outside and a bunch of TEs who are fairly similar receiving threats) I would expect to see more of Yeldon going forward because if you leave Gore in w/Singletary in 21 I think defensively they are easier to deal with...TE doesn't need special treatment (imo) and Gore is either in pass pro or a checkdown option instead of true threat (not that he can't catch the ball, just overall) to leak out onto LB. 

excellent post. Thanks for this ^

I think Bills will hope that Knox and Kroft will offer more  as the season develops.

Good points about how/who Bills line up in the backfield and what defenses will key on , or not.  lol

 TY !

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yeldon couldn't block a plug hole. 

your a Britisher aren't ya  .

 : )

 

[dave mcbride]

14 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

You’re the one who is comparing the Bills current system to the one deployed by Gilbride in 2003, not me.  The two are common only in that they had QB, C, RG, LG, RT, LT.  How the rest of the positions are deployed is completely different.  You made the comparison yet have failed to logically explain how Gilbride’s career long deemphasis of TE play compares to what Dabol is doing currently with the Bills.

 

Once again you become enraptured with your own commentary and then begin to intermingle it with what others have intelligently pointed out as your baseless points.  You then begin to turn other’s commentary as if it is your own.  A rather lacking tactic.

 

 

In 2007, Gilbride's first season as OC in NY, Jeremy Shockey had 57 receptions on 93 targets in 14 games before he got hurt. Kevin Boss picked up another 9 receptions and Michael Matthews another 6. That adds up to 72 receptions by the TEs that season. As for him being pass-happy: In 2007, they were 8th in the NFL in rushing attempts and 17th in pass attempts. In 2008, they were 7th in the NFL in rushing attempts and 21st in passing attempts. In 2010, they were 7th in rushing attempts and 17th in passing attempts. From 2008-2010, TE Kevin Boss, a mediocre player, averaged about 40 catches and 4 TDs per season. In their next SB season -- 2011 -- the Giants TEs had 55 receptions on 97 targets.  In 2012, the TEs had 59 catches and 6 TDs.  In Gilbride's final season in NY (2013), the Giants TEs had 63 receptions. 

 

His two years as OC in Pitt immediately before he came to the Bills: the Steelers  were 7th in rushing attempts and 17th in passing attempts in 1999, and were 3rd in rushing attempts and 29th in passing attempts in 2000.

 

In 1996 -- the year the Jags beat Buffalo in the playoffs at Rich Stadium -- the Jags' TEs had 84 receptions. 

 

Anyway, a lot of what you're saying about Gilbride doesn't ring true with regard to his most famous stint as OC (NY from 2007-13) and elsewhere. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by dave mcbride

[LABILLBACKER]

21 hours ago, GG said:

 

As has been discussed before, wonder if eventually Sweeney replaces DiMarco as the h-Back.  Could happen when Kroft returns or when the rooks are more comfortable?

As so many have pointed out, DiMarco brings little or nothing to the offensive production of this team. I don't care what the formation looks like. You can find creative ways to use Sweeney or Yeldon when changing sets. The majority of NFL teams don't even use a FB. Believe in you new and improved OL while getting more playmakers on the field. 

[Max Fischer]

The Giants are like the Jets without a CJ Mosley or decent linemen, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Bills used a lot of 4 WR sets.  Spread out even more to create mismatches that would open up the middle of the field and/or create space for the running game.  

[hondo in seattle]

Interesting that the Bills and Pats are #1 and #2 in both the 2-1 formation and 2-0 formation.

 

It's only one game but it doesn't seem that the Daboll apple fell too far from the Belichick tree.  

[BADOLBILZ]

On 9/11/2019 at 10:57 AM, dave mcbride said:

In 2007, Gilbride's first season as OC in NY, Jeremy Shockey had 57 receptions on 93 targets in 14 games before he got hurt. Kevin Boss picked up another 9 receptions and Michael Matthews another 6. That adds up to 72 receptions by the TEs that season. As for him being pass-happy: In 2007, they were 8th in the NFL in rushing attempts and 17th in pass attempts. In 2008, they were 7th in the NFL in rushing attempts and 21st in passing attempts. In 2010, they were 7th in rushing attempts and 17th in passing attempts. From 2008-2010, TE Kevin Boss, a mediocre player, averaged about 40 catches and 4 TDs per season. In their next SB season -- 2011 -- the Giants TEs had 55 receptions on 97 targets.  In 2012, the TEs had 59 catches and 6 TDs.  In Gilbride's final season in NY (2013), the Giants TEs had 63 receptions. 

 

His two years as OC in Pitt immediately before he came to the Bills: the Steelers  were 7th in rushing attempts and 17th in passing attempts in 1999, and were 3rd in rushing attempts and 29th in passing attempts in 2000.

 

In 1996 -- the year the Jags beat Buffalo in the playoffs at Rich Stadium -- the Jags' TEs had 84 receptions. 

 

Anyway, a lot of what you're saying about Gilbride doesn't ring true with regard to his most famous stint as OC (NY from 2007-13) and elsewhere. 

 

 

 

Cat got your tongue @BuffaloBill?

 

 

[BuffaloBill]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Cat got your tongue @BuffaloBill?

 

 

 

Not at all .... 

[ColoradoBills]

21 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

As so many have pointed out, DiMarco brings little or nothing to the offensive production of this team. I don't care what the formation looks like. You can find creative ways to use Sweeney or Yeldon when changing sets. The majority of NFL teams don't even use a FB. Believe in you new and improved OL while getting more playmakers on the field. 

 

I really was shocked that DiMarco had almost 50% of the offensive snaps.  That was over 3x what his 2018 usage was.

What has me wondering is this, is this going to be a normal thing or was it something Daboll used to attack the Jets specifically?

 

Giants studying Bills tape from last week will have to game plan for this, it wouldn't shock me at all if Daboll abandons the FB role for 

something different.

 

What's confusing me about the FB position is if it was planned to be important this year how come DiMarco was the only FB in camp?

As of now, I'm not convinced that DiMarco is going to continue to be used in such a large role.

Personally I haven't been a fan of DiMarco and it will be interesting how he is used against the Gmen.

[Rochesterfan]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I really was shocked that DiMarco had almost 50% of the offensive snaps.  That was over 3x what his 2018 usage was.

What has me wondering is this, is this going to be a normal thing or was it something Daboll used to attack the Jets specifically?

 

Giants studying Bills tape from last week will have to game plan for this, it wouldn't shock me at all if Daboll abandons the FB role for 

something different.

 

What's confusing me about the FB position is if it was planned to be important this year how come DiMarco was the only FB in camp?

As of now, I'm not convinced that DiMarco is going to continue to be used in such a large role.

Personally I haven't been a fan of DiMarco and it will be interesting how he is used against the Gmen.

 

 

I think it will change somewhat week to week.

 

I think the Bills (and rightfully so) saw a big advantage to trying to keep the Jets in a base defense with 3 LBs because they only had 1 in Mosley with any experience or talent.  I think DiMarco does that, but some TEs do not - they Jets May prefer nickel in that case.

 

It looked like by keeping DiMarco in the game and spreading him to the outside you limited some of the Jets exotic blitz schemes and they had a better idea of what Jamal Adams was going to do.

 

Basically you are playing the Jets 10 on 10 up front, but you know their coverage and have limited their blitzing.  Sounds like a win win.  

 

I think the Giants have similar weaknesses to the Jets, but the entire Defense is not as good.  I would not be surprised to see some of the same, but also a few different spreads to attack a weaker secondary.

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I think it will change somewhat week to week.

 

I think the Bills (and rightfully so) saw a big advantage to trying to keep the Jets in a base defense with 3 LBs because they only had 1 in Mosley with any experience or talent.  I think DiMarco does that, but some TEs do not - they Jets May prefer nickel in that case.

 

It looked like by keeping DiMarco in the game and spreading him to the outside you limited some of the Jets exotic blitz schemes and they had a better idea of what Jamal Adams was going to do.

 

Basically you are playing the Jets 10 on 10 up front, but you know their coverage and have limited their blitzing.  Sounds like a win win.  

 

I think the Giants have similar weaknesses to the Jets, but the entire Defense is not as good.  I would not be surprised to see some of the same, but also a few different spreads to attack a weaker secondary.

 

 

 

What is scary is having a Bills Offense and Coordinator dictating to an NFL teams defense!

[Kelly the Dog]

Sweeney had three critical blocks in the Jet game, more than DiMarco, and in less snaps. 

[Rochesterfan]

20 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Sweeney had three critical blocks in the Jet game, more than DiMarco, and in less snaps. 

 

Sweeney is by far the better player.  The issue is if the Bills went 1RB (Singletary) and 2 TE (Knox and Sweeney) - how do the Jets defend that versus how they defended the 2RB x 1TE sets.

 

My guess is they counter the 2 TEs by going to a Nickel look - taking 1 LB out and using a Safety or extra DB instead.  I think that Greg Williams has showed over the years that in nickel - especially with good safety play - he can design and blitz as needed.  

 

I do not think the plan was we have DiMarco and he is a great mismatch - I think DiMarco was there just to keep the defense in base - the rest of the offense had a big advantage versus base.  If the Jets had tried to counter and go Nickel - then I think the Bills line up tight and try to run the ball using DiMarco as a lead.  If they stayed Base (as the Jets did) - move him outside and we can attack 10 on 10 with our WRs against their depleted CBs.

 

Interestingly I think the Giants have the same weakness as the Jets and less talent upfront - so I expect some different formations and more running this week.

 

Just my opinion.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Rochesterfan said:

 

Sweeney is by far the better player.  The issue is if the Bills went 1RB (Singletary) and 2 TE (Knox and Sweeney) - how do the Jets defend that versus how they defended the 2RB x 1TE sets.

 

My guess is they counter the 2 TEs by going to a Nickel look - taking 1 LB out and using a Safety or extra DB instead.  I think that Greg Williams has showed over the years that in nickel - especially with good safety play - he can design and blitz as needed.  

 

I do not think the plan was we have DiMarco and he is a great mismatch - I think DiMarco was there just to keep the defense in base - the rest of the offense had a big advantage versus base.  If the Jets had tried to counter and go Nickel - then I think the Bills line up tight and try to run the ball using DiMarco as a lead.  If they stayed Base (as the Jets did) - move him outside and we can attack 10 on 10 with our WRs against their depleted CBs.

 

Interestingly I think the Giants have the same weakness as the Jets and less talent upfront - so I expect some different formations and more running this week.

 

Just my opinion.

This is also counting it as a two TE offense, with Smith or Knox already out there. You bring Sweeney in instead of DiMarco I highly doubt they bring in an extra DB. He's a rookie and known as a blocker and not for his speed. It's still the same defense IMO.