PFF Ranks for Bills

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

.4*Great+.6*Poor=Poor

 

Got it!

Edited September 10, 2019 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[GunnerBill]

Just now, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

.6*Great+.4*Poor=Poor

 

Got it!

 

It was the other way around. It was 4 rush plays for which he got a great grade. 6 receiving plays for which he got a poor grade. 

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is not worthless and there is nuance. Zay did not get a good receiving grade. His run blocking dragged his grade up (he got an elite run blocking grade from 13 run block snaps). 

 

Singletary caught 5 of his 6 targets but didn't break many tackle on those plays, bobbled two of the ones he caught and dropped a ball. 

 

Again, you have to dig deeper. 

 

 

Sorry bud, there is no digging deeper to justify Singletary getting a poor grade.  Bobbling but still catching the ball shouldn’t take a game with 9 touches and 98 yards down to poor.  

 

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was the other way around. It was 4 rush plays for which he got a great grade. 6 receiving plays for which he got a poor grade. 

 

6 receiving plays where he caught 5 does not equate to poor, let alone so poor that it brings a guy who averaged 17.5 yards per carry all the way down to a poor overall grade.

 

This is just not justifiable on any level.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Sorry bud, there is no digging deeper to justify Singletary getting a poor grade.  Bobbling but still catching the ball shouldn’t take a game with 9 touches and 98 yards down to poor.  

 

You take it as too much of a definitive judgment on players. They are not saying Singletary was rubbish. That isn't the aim of their grading. They are looking at how much a player maximised the opportunity for them on each play. Bobbling a ball before you catch it means you likely haven't done that and so it attracts a negative grade. 

 

It is a tool. It has to be taken that way. 

 

[Alphadawg7]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You take it as too much of a definitive judgment on players. They are not saying Singletary was rubbish. That isn't the aim of their grading. They are looking at how much a player maximised the opportunity for them on each play. Bobbling a ball before you catch it means you likely haven't done that and so it attracts a negative grade. 

 

It is a tool. It has to be taken that way. 

 

 

I understand the tool.  I understand they are not saying he is trash as a player.  I am not in any way confused.

 

But bobbling but STILL catching a pass is not so poor that it offsets the fact he did catch the passes and also produced 70 yards rushing on 4 touches. 

 

No one is arguing that bobbled, but caught, passes could lower his receiving grade a LITTLE.  But to go all the way down to poor is absurd.  To then furthermore lower his overall grade to poor after rushing for 70 yards on 4 carries as a result is about the most ridiculous grading system and just doesn't provide any real analytical value.

 

Sorry Gunner, no disrespect intended from me on this, but IMO there is absolutely no logical defense that can justify Singletary receiving a poor grade overall.  Honestly, there isn’t even a good defense for him to get a poor receiving grade when he still caught the 2 bobbled passes that we’re barely bobbled to begin with.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I understand the tool.  I understand they are not saying he is trash as a player.  I am not in any way confused.

 

But bobbling but STILL catching a pass is not so poor that it offsets the fact he did catch the passes and also produced 70 yards rushing on 4 touches. 

 

No one is arguing that bobbled, but caught, passes could lower his receiving grade a LITTLE.  But to go all the way down to poor is absurd.  To then furthermore lower his overall grade to poor after rushing for 70 yards on 4 carries as a result is about the most ridiculous grading system and just doesn't provide any real analytical value.

 

Sorry Gunner, no disrespect intended from me on this, but IMO there is absolutely no logical defense that can justify Singletary receiving a poor grade overall.  Honestly, there isn’t even a good defense for him to get a poor receiving grade when he still caught the 2 bobbled passes that we’re barely bobbled to begin with.

 

Then we are firmly in agree to disagree territory. I understand their grade and how they got there. Doesn't mean I don't think Singletary was impressive or that he was critical to the comeback. 

[D521646]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You take it as too much of a definitive judgment on players. They are not saying Singletary was rubbish. That isn't the aim of their grading. They are looking at how much a player maximised the opportunity for them on each play. Bobbling a ball before you catch it means you likely haven't done that and so it attracts a negative grade. 

 

It is a tool. It has to be taken that way. 

 

 

Tool, being the appropriate word here.  What "tool" is this good for?  Fantasy FB, defensive/offensive coordinators, coaches of any kind?  What is it good for?  Is it good for predicting ANYTHING, and if so, what is the measuring stick, what is it's success rate?

 

No, Sir, this is no tool.  The screwdriver I have in my toolbox is a tool, this is pure garbage for fans who don't know anything.

 

Tim-

[DCOrange]

12 hours ago, buffalo2218 said:

4 carries for 70 yards is poor? wow

 

He was graded the 4th highest rated runner this week. The reason his ranking is so low is because the vast majority of his snaps were in the passing game where he had nearly the lowest grade in the league.

 

Edit: I see Gunner has been going back and forth with posters about this, so I'll add this: it's not just the 5 catches on 6 targets that impact Singletary's receiving grade. It's the plays where he wasn't targeted and the context around all of that. I have no idea what they saw; I didn't even watch the game, but I would guess they felt his routes were poor/sounds like he bobbled and or dropped a few passes.

Edited September 10, 2019 by DCOrange

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Then we are firmly in agree to disagree territory. I understand their grade and how they got there. Doesn't mean I don't think Singletary was impressive or that he was critical to the comeback. 

 

All good Gunner, you know I respect you overall as a poster.  

 

But yeah, agree to disagree here as there is just no logical reasoning I can come too that will weigh slightly bobbling a couple of made catches so hard it drops his overall performance to “poor”.  I just can’t in any way support this kind of a grading scale.  I’m fine dinging him some, but to have his overall grade be this low over it is just not balanced analytics IMO.

[BigDingus]

13 hours ago, Seoulofstone said:

 

  I was just reading a thread on jetnation saying that pff rated Darnold QB#11 @ 68,7 and Allen QB#25 @ 52,3. So that's amusing.

 

Darnold was the better QB in that game.

If Allen played like Darnold did, we would've been in cruise control by the end of the game. Simply not turning the ball over would've done wonders.

Our defense + the Jets not converting on turnovers + Mosley getting injured was what won us the game. Allen finally playing like a decent starter at the end of the game, doesn't mean he had anywhere close to a good performance.

 

Edit: Forgot the part where the Jets' kicker completely screwed them over... If he could hit a FG, we still lose.

Edited September 10, 2019 by BigDingus

[GunnerBill]

Just now, D521646 said:

 

Tool, being the appropriate word here.  What "tool" is this good for?  Fantasy FB, defensive/offensive coordinators, coaches of any kind?  What is it good for?  Is it good for predicting ANYTHING, and if so, what is the measuring stick, what is it's success rate?

 

No, Sir, this is no tool.  The screwdriver I have in my toolbox is a tool, this is pure garbage for fans who don't know anything.

 

Tim-

 

Well most NFL teans are subscribers so they cleary think it is a useful tool. It isn't intended as a mechanism to predict anything. It is an attempt to apply numerical value to every play in football. Now football isn't a game that lends itself to that very easily, but that doesn't mean one should dismiss any analysis that attempts to do such. I don't agree with PFF grades as any sort of definitve barrometer for a player's performance but the approach of applying a numerical value to every player's role in each play is an interesting one and can identify patterns that are useful in evaluation. 

 

The fans who hate it generally hate the fact that it is imperfect. As far as I am aware it has never claimed to be perfect. It acknowledges the imperfect nature of applying numbers to football. But to dismiss it as worthless is short sighted. And often it is just because people don't like specific outcomes. 

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 I’m fine dinging him some, but to have his overall grade be this low over it is just not balanced analytics IMO.

 

Analytics is not supposed to be balanced. That is why using them as a single determinate measure almost always fails. You need the human brain and the human eye to add the nuance and the context. Numbers are a blunt and cruel mistress. That is kind of the point of them. 

[BigDingus]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is not worthless and there is nuance. Zay did not get a good receiving grade. His run blocking dragged his grade up (he got an elite run blocking grade from 13 run block snaps). 

 

Singletary caught 5 of his 6 targets but didn't break many tackle on those plays, bobbled two of the ones he caught and dropped a ball. 

 

Again, you have to dig deeper. 

 

 

Expecting these guys to dig deeper beyond their pure emotional reactions is asking too much.

PFF isn't stupid, and they're also not gods. They're very informative, and do very in depth analysis of the overall performance, beyond the stat lines, and grade full performances. Run blocking is a key aspect of being a WR, as is getting open & running good routes. They don't grade every single thing ever, but they give good insight into more than just simple numbers.

[Seoulofstone]

1 minute ago, BigDingus said:

 

Darnold was the better QB in that game.

If Allen played like Darnold did, we would've been in cruise control by the end of the game. Simply not turning the ball over would've done wonders.

Our defense + the Jets not converting on turnovers + Mosley getting injured was what won us the game. Allen finally playing like a decent starter at the end of the game, doesn't mean he had anywhere close to a good performance.

 

You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. Darnold played safe the whole game hence his throw yardage average. He never really hurt the Bills but for box score afficionados his statline looks acceptable  I believe the Bills tried that approach with Tyrod. I for one am glad the coaches are saying to JA try your arm. He led a 4th quarter comeback. He had a positive impact-but you see what you want to see.     

 

   Another parallel is Eli. I went to the Giants forum ahead of the upcoming game. His statline is excellent but reading fan comments, his insipid short passing game is hated by their fans. They are already begging for Jones who was a deeply unpopular draft selection.

[Seoulofstone]

18 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Our defense + the Jets not converting on turnovers + Mosley getting injured was what won us the game.

 

Edit: Forgot the part where the Jets' kicker completely screwed them over... If he could hit a FG, we still lose.

 

  It's so funny to me that so many Bills fans are always so desperate to diagnose the cause of wins based on things that could have gone differently or errors and Injuries to opponents. if you did this in everyday life you would go crazy  This exact same thing happened when Buffalo last made the playoffs. You are so desperate to talk about alternate universes that you can't even credit your QB for coming back from 13 points behind in the last quarter 

[GreggTX]

2 surprises -- Singletary and Sweeney. I have to guess that Singletary was making mistakes on plays where he didn't have the ball in his hands. Well, I know how to fix that problem. Put the ball IN his hands more often. Can Sweeney really be this great? I can't wait to see more of him.

[Mr. WEO]

Sweeney IS Elite!

[Solomon Grundy]

My concern is that they had 1/2 the offensive line rated as POOR

Edited September 10, 2019 by the skycap

[RememberTheRockpile]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well most NFL teans are subscribers so they cleary think it is a useful tool. It isn't intended as a mechanism to predict anything. It is an attempt to apply numerical value to every play in football.

 

Most teams probably subscribe to Sports Illustrated too. PFF provides a variety of statistical packages of which some may prove useful to an NFL team.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-signature-statistics-a-glossary 

 

The fact that some or most NFL teams subscribe doesn't prove that PFF performance evaluations under discussion here are of any use to NFL teams.

 

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Now football isn't a game that lends itself to that very easily, but that doesn't mean one should dismiss any analysis that attempts to do such. I don't agree with PFF grades as any sort of definitve barrometer for a player's performance but the approach of applying a numerical value to every player's role in each play is an interesting one and can identify patterns that are useful in evaluation. 

 

I don't "dismiss any analysis" but I do look for indications that the so called analysis is BS masquerading as legitimate statistical analysis. Statistics are not exact and always include a margin of error. If a hundred people evaluate the same player on a given play there are going to undoubtedly going to be a range of differences. Failure to include at least the margin of error is a sure sign the statistic is BS.  

 

Here is my evaluation of Singletary's 6 pass targets:

 

2nd Qtr - 14:21
Flat out drops it. Started looking upfield before catching the ball.

 

2nd Qtr - 6:07
Poor pass from Allen. Pass at his feet. Not a catchable ball.

 

2nd Qtr - Short pass hits him up in his right shoulder pad /facemask. Bounces up and he snatches out of the air without breaking stride. A Jet at the 20 has a good angle but Singletary makes a nice cut at the 21 and gets to the 18. Without the cut he is likely down at the 20. Pass needed to be a foot more in front of him. In my view he did a nice job catching a poorly place pass that in my book is a net positive.

 

4th Qtr - 11:54
Another short pass coming out of the backfield. Catches it cleanly and gets bracketed by 2 Jets. Pretty much the definition of average play.

 

4th Qtr - 5:55
Short pass coming out of the backfield with a clean catch. Makes the 1st guy miss and the second Jet gets enough of him to force him out of bounds but he still gets an 2 extra yards pass the push before going out of bounds.

 

4th Qtr - 3:52
Coming out of the backfield Allen is late throwing the ball giving the Jet line backer time to close. He makes a clean catch and tackled immediately for a 1 yard loss.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, RememberTheRockpile said:

 

Most teams probably subscribe to Sports Illustrated too. PFF provides a variety of statistical packages of which some may prove useful to an NFL team.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-signature-statistics-a-glossary 

 

The fact that some or most NFL teams subscribe doesn't prove that PFF performance evaluations under discussion here are of any use to NFL teams.

 

 

I don't "dismiss any analysis" but I do look for indications that the so called analysis is BS masquerading as legitimate statistical analysis. Statistics are not exact and always include a margin of error. If a hundred people evaluate the same player on a given play there are going to undoubtedly going to be a range of differences. Failure to include at least the margin of error is a sure sign the statistic is BS.  

 

Here is my evaluation of Singletary's 6 pass targets:

 

2nd Qtr - 14:21
Flat out drops it. Started looking upfield before catching the ball.

 

2nd Qtr - 6:07
Poor pass from Allen. Pass at his feet. Not a catchable ball.

 

2nd Qtr - Short pass hits him up in his right shoulder pad /facemask. Bounces up and he snatches out of the air without breaking stride. A Jet at the 20 has a good angle but Singletary makes a nice cut at the 21 and gets to the 18. Without the cut he is likely down at the 20. Pass needed to be a foot more in front of him. In my view he did a nice job catching a poorly place pass that in my book is a net positive.

 

4th Qtr - 11:54
Another short pass coming out of the backfield. Catches it cleanly and gets bracketed by 2 Jets. Pretty much the definition of average play.

 

4th Qtr - 5:55
Short pass coming out of the backfield with a clean catch. Makes the 1st guy miss and the second Jet gets enough of him to force him out of bounds but he still gets an 2 extra yards pass the push before going out of bounds.

 

4th Qtr - 3:52
Coming out of the backfield Allen is late throwing the ball giving the Jet line backer time to close. He makes a clean catch and tackled immediately for a 1 yard loss.

 

 

 

PFF is allowing a margin of error though because it is not pretending to be definitive. It is how people read and analyse their work that is problem 

[RememberTheRockpile]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

PFF is allowing a margin of error though because it is not pretending to be definitive. It is how people read and analyse their work that is problem 

Margin of error is numerical. So where is the margin of error for Singletary?