Edmunds, Oliver & Morse are a great foundation

[John from Riverside]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, either it is a passive aggressive way of being snide about Allen or, more likely, the OP was about building strength in the middle of the O and D line as the proper way to build a team. In that case, qb just doesn't factor in, even if one thinks Allen is the most important piece.

OP totally entitled to their opinion....but everyone knows if you dont have a QB you got NUTHIN

 

[Simon]

10 hours ago, eball said:

 

Huh?  Which two?  I assume you mean Morse, which is the other one?  I think Dawkins has shown himself to be a legitimate starter. .....

 

I honestly don't know where the incessant criticism of Beane comes from, judging from where this organization has been and how it looks now.

 

Yeah I was referring to Dawkins. As for the other OL they've added I'm going to wait and see before I get too comfortable with Beane's work in the pro personnel dept.

As for my incessant criticism, you did notice I started the thread with the express purpose of praising the assets he's used to build a strong foundation in the middle of the field?

 

9 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Simon and AKC?! Welcome to the 90s! 

Holy schnikes, my friend. I barely lived through that decade the first time; I am not rolling those deadly bones again!

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, either it is a passive aggressive way of being snide about Allen or, more likely, the OP was about building strength in the middle of the O and D line as the proper way to build a team. In that case, qb just doesn't factor in, even if one thinks Allen is the most important piece.

 

Yeah, that was definitely the intent. I almost put Allen in cuz technically he's in the middle of the field, but the fit didn't seem quite right for what I was going for.

fwiw, I think young Josh is going ot be a very effective QB in this league and probably for a very long time.

And I would never be snide about it; I freely admit I'm an enormous jackass and would just come right and say it without equivocation ; - )

 

 

 

 

On 9/9/2019 at 10:14 AM, Bill from NYC said:

Hey, GREAT to hear from you Brother!

 

Did you like Cody Ford coming out of Oklahoma? Others balked at this selection but I happened to like it (surprised?). I think that his development will mean a great deal to this team.

 

Good to "see" you too, old man.

I haven't been watching enough ball the last couple years to intelligently give input on Ford. But I will say that I am happy that Beane at least seems to recognize that he needs a gaggle of mean mutherjumpers out in front of that talented young QB

[BillsFan692]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Dawkins has been inconsistent at best. Solid rookie year and up and down since. Had a bad year overall last season and didn't have a good game Sunday.

 

Feliciano looks to be a good find. Morse is solid but a risk due to the concussions so who knows how long he's around for. Ford has struggled mightily to this point. Still I think it has the makings of a solid line.

 

They certainly could've done more at the WR position. Remember, these guys didn't draft ONE reciever. 

You know, sometimes... it's like with mac and cheese.. You stir it up, you stir up you stir it up and it's gonna get wet and juicy. 

Stay humble and hungry my friends!
 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by BillsFan692

[BADOLBILZ]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:20 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

Right now, Ford needs to be playing RG. He's clearly behind Nsekhe at RT

 

 

Unless Nsekhe is really hurting I can't see how they came to the conclusion that Ford should be starting at RT.

 

Together they had some nice moments in preseason and this looked like a no-brainer decision.

 

I get not wanting to expose Nsekhe because he's the only real option at LT if Dawkins got hurt..........but you can't sit the better tackle.

 

 

[thebandit27]

41 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Unless Nsekhe is really hurting I can't see how they came to the conclusion that Ford should be starting at RT.

 

Together they had some nice moments in preseason and this looked like a no-brainer decision.

 

I get not wanting to expose Nsekhe because he's the only real option at LT if Dawkins got hurt..........but you can't sit the better tackle.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Seems to me that they know he's not the better player, but they also know that they want him to be their future RT, so they're trying to get him as much work as possible at the position.

 

Me? I'd rather play the best combination of 5.

 

Based on what I saw on Sunday, I'm not convinced he's a better option at RG than Mongo either.

 

[SloanBillsFan]

Good for him!! But I wonder if it can be ordered as a "sack" lunch?? (Sorry, just had to go there...) 

On 9/9/2019 at 3:34 AM, LeGOATski said:

I'm 100% sold on that guy.

 

Bring him in.

 

Head of security.

I don't know. Maybe game planning? 

[Big Turk]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:17 AM, Simon said:

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

Its only patchwork in the sense they havent had time to play together enough. In time this line will become a strength. The impatientness of people on this board is astounding. This isnt Madden where you just plug pieces in and they play according to their ratings immediately.  OLine play very complex, has a lot of moving parts and it takes time for everyone to understand what the others will do in various situations and know how to adjust, etc.

 

Its basically 5 players required to play as a single unit. One breakdown along the line can blow up a play even when the other 4 players are doing their job.

 

Patience...not everything is going to happen right away. Real life is not a video game.

Edited September 11, 2019 by matter2003

[BADOLBILZ]

28 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Agreed.

 

Seems to me that they know he's not the better player, but they also know that they want him to be their future RT, so they're trying to get him as much work as possible at the position.

 

Me? I'd rather play the best combination of 5.

 

Based on what I saw on Sunday, I'm not convinced he's a better option at RG than Mongo either.

 

 

 

My guess is despite struggling and to our displeasure Ford will be back out at RT Sunday because as you said they want to develop him........and now they have a minor dilemma because Ford really shouldn't be getting the start over Feliciano if he continues to struggle at RT and Nsekhe needs to play.     

[eball]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My guess is despite struggling and to our displeasure Ford will be back out at RT Sunday because as you said they want to develop him........and now they have a minor dilemma because Ford really shouldn't be getting the start over Feliciano if he continues to struggle at RT and Nsekhe needs to play.     

What’s the dilemma? They’ll play Nsekhe and Feliciano just like they did in the 4th quarter last Sunday if that’s who they think the best group is. You still believe Beane and McD are stubborn enough to play a draft pick over a currently better option?
 

[eball]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

As for my incessant criticism, you did notice I started the thread with the express purpose of praising the assets he's used to build a strong foundation in the middle of the field?

Sure, I noticed it. And then in your second, much longer post you almost entirely negated any praise of Beane by opining that he’s not doing enough to put a foundation around his QB (despite the fact he spent the entire offseason doing just that).

 

Just odd to me I guess.  I don’t know if all of the moves will pan out but I’m sure as hell not going to suggest Beane doesn’t understand what’s important, judging by what he’s done. 

[thebandit27]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My guess is despite struggling and to our displeasure Ford will be back out at RT Sunday because as you said they want to develop him........and now they have a minor dilemma because Ford really shouldn't be getting the start over Feliciano if he continues to struggle at RT and Nsekhe needs to play.     

 

I think that the next phase in the OL "rotation" is Ford rotating in at RG with Mongo, with Ty staying at RT.  Just a guess though.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, eball said:

What’s the dilemma? They’ll play Nsekhe and Feliciano just like they did in the 4th quarter last Sunday if that’s who they think the best group is. You still believe Beane and McD are stubborn enough to play a draft pick over a currently better option?
 

 

 

The minor dilemma is that your rookie second round pick might not be able to match performance of  two 1-2 year reserve patches on the right side this season.   He needs the snaps but he might have to be given them rather than earning them.........which runs contrary to their competition model. 

[Billzfan23]

On 9/9/2019 at 3:45 AM, Aussie Joe said:

Pick 9, Pick 16 and the highest paid Center in the League..

 

You would expect them to be good..

Second highest paid now

[nedboy7]

Cutting shady was a bad move. Maybe I don’t understand why we needed to save money. 

[dave mcbride]

On 9/9/2019 at 1:52 PM, AKC said:

I figure if Simon can get far enough away from the oxygen tank to dust off his PS2 keyboard I can find a little time to chime in! Good to see you here too- KTDog told me you'd had some time down and I'm very happy to know you're on your feet. GG must be the most durable among us- he doesn't seem to get too frustrated with the trollhood and poorly mannered fans personally disparaging our team! Things are great out in my land- far away from the crowds and spending almost every day taking in the wonders of California's Central Coast after 35 years in SoCal. A long strange trip starting in Wellsville way back before our Bills were born!

Good to hear your voice! I always remember "D-line equity" from back in the day.

[John from Riverside]

On 9/8/2019 at 9:07 PM, Simon said:

While it's hard to be sold on Mr Beane quite yet, one thing that you can really appreciate about him is that he understands that most football games are won from the inside out. They've invested heavily in the middle of their units on both sides of the ball and that willingness to invest both significant draft capital and financial resources into these keystones is very encouraging.

Edmunds, Oliver and Morse are three of the best ballplayers on this roster and if Beane continues to focus his assets on maintaining that kind of interior infrastructure, I think it bodes very well for the Bills going forward.

 

 

Im just wondering why you left Josh Allen out of this

 

Nothing happens if you dont have the QB

On 9/9/2019 at 8:28 AM, AKC said:

Alternatively the calculation could have been that #1 having Singletary on the roster was going to limit McCoys touches and #2 they seem to be building some goodwill as a player friendly organization and letting Shady find a spot more ideal for him would be consistent with that reputation. I haven’t seen a single negative thing from him about his time in Buff, leading me to believe Beane managed that very well. Bottom line is money could have been a lesser factor to them. I’m not sure Shady would have been content waiting for the rookie to be limited by injury or performance issues. 

OMG....he is ALIVE

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 9/9/2019 at 8:17 AM, Simon said:

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

By "last year" are you speaking of 2018?

 

I have reservations about Beane and Co talent evaluation myself, stemming from

1) thinking Peterman and McCarron (between them) counted as veteran leadership AND a starter going into the 2018 season

2) thinking Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, and Corey Coleman constituted an acceptable WR corps

3) thinking the 2018 OL was adequate after signing Bodine at center

 

But last off season, I thought the FA crop was good, with the possible exception of Kroft who has been Mr MIA.

 

I don't believe saving a few bucks was the reason they cut McCoy.  I think it was done to be able to keep Kroft on the active roster, and/or for "locker room chemistry"/culture aspects.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:17 AM, Simon said:

There's a couple of things that are pretty concerning.

One is that I don't think he's done nearly enough to put a support system around Josh Allen that will enable him to reach his potential. When you get your hands on a legitimate blue chip QB prospect like that, your #1 priority instantly becomes surrounding him with the kind of talent that will help him succeed. Instead, after two offseasons of opportunities for Beane, Josh Allen is still standing back there behind what is mostly a patchwork offensive line, without a legitimate starting NFL TE, throwing to a bunch of smurfs with a 3 foot catch radius, all being coached by a guy who might have the worst track record in the entire NFL as an offensive coordinator. That is not a recipe for success and he has to do better.

The other thing that is worrying is the way he's managed the pro personnel aspect of the roster so far. The shotgun approach to FA is not necessarily bad in and of itself. Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of misses, that's just the nature of the beast. But what Beane has brought in here thus far hasn't just been bad, it's been historically bad. That gawdawful mess of signings last year was a failure on an epic scale; you might be hard pressed to find a worse batch of FA additions in the history of this franchise. He has a chance to show improved decision-making this year as it relates to how he manages to his professional roster, but starting the season by cutting the RB with the best combination of talent/experience/versatility in order to save a few bucks does not exactly inspire confidence.

I'm not hoping for him to be fired or anything, but if he doesn't show significant improvement in these two areas his tenure here is going to be neither successful nor sustained.

 

 

I mean - we all knew the oline was really bad in 2018.  They signed Morse, Feliciano, Spain, Long, and Nsekhe.  None of them save maybe Morse was guaranteed a starting job here either.  Drafted Ford in the 2nd to try and continue to improve this unit. 

 

Kroft was signed to improve the TEs after finally getting out of the Clay contract.  He got hurt and missed a ton of time - it happens.  They also drafted 2 TE's in 2019 - Knox looks like he should be a player moving forward. 

 

WR's - what do you want here?  We went from league worst pass catchers to somewhere... better than the worst WR room in the league.  I don't think you can fix an entire unit in one year.

 

Complaining about what he did in 2018 is a bit unfair when you include the fact that the team carried 70 million in dead cap that season.  The only 2 big money additions were at positions of need.  And when you look at who else was available it isn't like we swung and missed on some sort of all-pro defensive end by signing murphy and Star.  We also were assumed by many in the league to have one of the worst rosters in the league... not exactly easy to bring in free agents.  

[Chandler#81]

Good thread. My concern lies with Morse, especially vs the Blitz. Feliciano has proven to be a stout force -certainly in the run game. I hope the coaches are working hard on his passpro, because we’re going to see a repeat performance of 30ish blitzes until we block better or hit open receivers running wild. Loved the Morse signing, but Feliciano has proven to be meaner and stronger, imo.

[BillsVet]

5 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I mean - we all knew the oline was really bad in 2018.  They signed Morse, Feliciano, Spain, Long, and Nsekhe.  None of them save maybe Morse was guaranteed a starting job here either.  Drafted Ford in the 2nd to try and continue to improve this unit. 

 

Kroft was signed to improve the TEs after finally getting out of the Clay contract.  He got hurt and missed a ton of time - it happens.  They also drafted 2 TE's in 2019 - Knox looks like he should be a player moving forward. 

 

WR's - what do you want here?  We went from league worst pass catchers to somewhere... better than the worst WR room in the league.  I don't think you can fix an entire unit in one year.

 

Complaining about what he did in 2018 is a bit unfair when you include the fact that the team carried 70 million in dead cap that season.  The only 2 big money additions were at positions of need.  And when you look at who else was available it isn't like we swung and missed on some sort of all-pro defensive end by signing murphy and Star.  We also were assumed by many in the league to have one of the worst rosters in the league... not exactly easy to bring in free agents.  

 

Rank the top 5 UFA's Beane has signed regardless of contract terms.  Then, compare that group to the number of UFAs signed (or players traded for) since 2017. 

 

That exercise should clarify the results have been underwhelming and Simon's point stands: pro personnel decision making, particularly on offense, has not provided this QB with the players around him to have a better shot at success.  This was on display Sunday.