Element115 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Your take also shows inconsistency in judgement. You seem to dismiss Allen based on his rookie season, and at the same time you want to anoint Mahomes as savior because of one really great year. What if Allen steps up this season , and Mahomes regresses? I do a lot of research and statistical work; an N of 1 is hardly enough on which to base conclusions. Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point". This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate. However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season. 9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: McDermott and Beane have done a good job drafting talent thus far. But "they" (people assume Bean and McDermott were conversing before that draft but that's just conjecture) missed on the most important position on the roster, right out of the gate... (and then spent significantly more draft capital the following year to address the position with what looks like to be inferior talent). Edited August 29, 2019 by Element115 1
teef Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Element115 said: Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point". This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate. However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season. does it keep you awake at night? 1 2
BarleyNY Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I can't believe that people here are still stuck on Mahomes like a junk yard dog is stuck on a soup bone. Mahomes sat for a year and had Reid to tutor him. Mahomes draft position would have had fans clambering for him to start early in his rookie season and if that did not happen the talk of being a bust would have been deafening. Also, Reid was not here to tutor him nor Alex Smith to be a mentor. People here were moaning about Derek Anderson being signed last year without a single thought as to how it might benefit Allen. I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this. So much garbage. Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB. In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor. They hadn’t even extended him yet. And the fans would have been fine with it. They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably). They were counting on McCarron to be that guy. The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie. The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back. Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this. So much garbage. Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB. In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor. They hadn’t even extended him yet. And the fans would have been fine with it. They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably). They were counting on McCarron to be that guy. The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie. The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back. Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. McD came in and entered the draft knowing that the GM would not be with the team moving forward. That means his career would be tied to the next GM and ultimately the QB they picked together. To pretend this career defining context is not a thing or does not matter is mind boggling. 1
BarleyNY Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: McD came in and entered the draft knowing that the GM would not be with the team moving forward. That means his career would be tied to the next GM and ultimately the QB they picked together. To pretend this career defining context is not a thing or does not matter is mind boggling. To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. McD is a coach, not a QB elevator. The guy they planned to hire and trust to evaluate the position wasn't with the team. We are not talking about a guarantee. Drafting your franchise QB is always a gamble. Even the best prospects fail half the time, and Mahomes was farrrrr from the best prospect. It would be insane to make that gamble under those circumstances.
Element115 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 24 minutes ago, teef said: does it keep you awake at night? No, not really. 1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: McD is a coach, not a QB elevator. The guy they planned to hire and trust to evaluate the position wasn't with the team. We are not talking about a guarantee. Drafting your franchise QB is always a gamble. Even the best prospects fail half the time, and Mahomes was farrrrr from the best prospect. It would be insane to make that gamble under those circumstances. Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Element115 said: No, not really. Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers. Mahomes was not a better prospect. You are looking at it in hindsight. In any event, even if that weren't true, drafting a QB without your GM and the staff you trust is farrrrrr more dangerous. That is more so a recipe for failure.
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, Element115 said: No, not really. Mahomes was a much better prospect out of college than Allen. The Bills wound up paying more for a lesser prospect the following draft. These are the types of things that contribute to franchises being perennial losers. you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better.
RochesterRob Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 24 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I can’t believe that people still come up with crap like this. So much garbage. Believe it or not, the Bills could’ve provided quality coaching to a rookie QB and sat him for a season (if needed) behind an acceptable bridge QB. In fact, one was on the team in Tyrod Taylor. They hadn’t even extended him yet. And the fans would have been fine with it. They were fine with that same idea when Allen was drafted - they just didn’t want it to be Peterman (understandably). They were counting on McCarron to be that guy. The situation with Taylor and Mahomes would’ve been much, much better with a better vet and rookie. The only problem some people had at the time was moving on from Taylor and not wanting to take a step back. Many were in “win now” mode and wanted to end the playoff drought regardless of the long term futility. The fans would have never been fine with sitting Mahomes for a season. Allen was considered a more raw prospect than Mahomes and nearly half the board wanted Allen out there on opening day. You're still ignoring what Reid did for Mahomes and trying to say that a guy similar to Reid was on staff or one phone call away. Revisionism and denial are your talking points.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better. He is just not making good points.
Captain Hindsight Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 18 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. Would you let your outgoing manager make the biggest decision in the company's history before he is fired on Monday?
Element115 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Mahomes was not a better prospect. You are looking at it in hindsight. In any event, even if that weren't true, drafting a QB without your GM and the staff you trust is farrrrrr more dangerous. That is more so a recipe for failure. He was most definitely a better prospect. Much better college career, much less "raw". I hate that term, raw usually means more likely to fail in the NFL. 8 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: you need to get lost. you are not contributing anything to this board and have been doing nothing but inciting. the sooner you are gone the better. I'm sorry that all you want is positive contribution instead of objectivity.
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He is just not making good points. it's what trolls do best.
RochesterRob Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 19 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: To pretend that you don’t take a franchise QB when you have the chance because you want to change GMs is mind boggling. There was extremely little talk about Mahomes being a franchise QB coming out of college. A high ceiling guy yes and with that assessment it means such a prospect has a long ways to go to realize his potential.
Element115 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 Just now, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: it's what trolls do best. Opposing views do not make one a troll, in fact, the ones always screaming troll are generally the fascists of the group. 2
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 Interesting thread. But you need to be careful with what is a draft’s strength is supposed to be. 2017, the weak qb draft is better than the strong 2018 QBs class. 1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said: Don't have time to look for the interview, but Beane said something about looking at future draft classes when considering FAs and draft picks. Its so nice to see an actual plan for this team. Whaley could recognize talent, but his roster building skills left a lot to be desired. Every move was "this year" With McBeane its always "this year and next year". Its so refreshing You need a hug bud? I don’t disagree. But isn’t that what you should say to give yourself more job security? Like if they have another losing season, McBeane can point to the process and say they just need another year? rebuilding doesn’t take that long in the nfl.
thebandit27 Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: No, it really won’t. Only those who revel in 20/20 hindsight misery will even consider a 12th pick traded that lands an outstanding cornerback. Give it a rest, sunshine. What if you were the board's official Mahomer since June of 2016 and watched him fall into your favorite team's lap right when they needed to pull the trigger on a franchise QB? Can you feel that way then? Asking for a friend 5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Interesting thread. But you need to be careful with what is a draft’s strength is supposed to be. 2017, the weak qb draft is better than the strong 2018 QBs class. Way too early to make that call. 1
teef Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 30 minutes ago, Element115 said: No, not really. you sure? you seem to bring it up quite a bit. like it really bothers you. 1
oldmanfan Posted August 29, 2019 Posted August 29, 2019 57 minutes ago, Element115 said: Not really, I said the data to this point does not point to Allen being anywhere near as good as Mahomes, key terminology being "to this point". This season will add valuable data and solidify a comparison (I suspect Allen will be nowhere near as good as Mahomes, but that is projection based on what I have seen). I expect Mahomes' numbers to decrease, simply because his numbers last season will be hard to duplicate. However, I expect Allens numbers to be around half of what Mahomes' were last season. But "they" (people assume Bean and McDermott were conversing before that draft but that's just conjecture) missed on the most important position on the roster, right out of the gate... (and then spent significantly more draft capital the following year to address the position with what looks like to be inferior talent). No they didn’t. You want to continue to make a point that is not necessarily valid. You assume Allen will not be as good as Mahomes based on one season. And you continue to indict our guys but ignore that every other team in the league could have drafted Mahomes. Do you indict them all as well? 1
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