McBeane and draft timing

[Forward Progress]

For both McDermott and Beane, the character of the players is critically important in their evaulation of every draft pick.  This is even more true at the QB position as he becomes the leader of the offense, whether he is a natural leader or not.  Beane and the Bills scouting staff put tremendous time into the evaluation of the QB's in the 2018 class.  For McDermott to endorse Mahomes one year earlier without the thorough evaluation that occurred when Beane arrived would have been a huge gamble.  

 

In hindsight, we all saw what Mahomes did this past year in the perfect situation with coaching, developing behind a veteran QB and strong supporting cast on offense.  Would Mahomes have been a league MVP in the Bills' offence?  I don't think so, but I think he would have been very good.

 

This year we will see Allen's second year and I am hopeful that we will see a step forward.  I think our offense will be a "take what the defence gives us" offense.   I think we will get some more support from the running game, with the O-line upgrades and RB depth.  Allen's running threat forces a LB spy, leaving one less defender in coverage and I think Allen will make better decisions with the football.

 

Mahomes and Allen will always be compared because of the trade, but our GM and scouting team were not in place to be sure that we got the right guy.  I agree with an earlier comment, that Whaley couldn't make that pick because he was on his way out the door.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Forward Progress

[jkeerie]

26 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

So don’t draft your QB when you have the chance, wait until everything else is in place? You must’ve been pissed off when the Bills took Allen then because they had less surrounding offensive talent at that point. You get him when you can. 

No...That's not what I'm saying at all.  My point, which you obviously missed, is that you cannot make a direct comparison with Mahomes situation in KC and Allen's in Buffalo.  Would Mahomes in his second year under the tutelage of Tyrod Taylor, throwing to Clay versus Kelce and Zay, Deonte Thompson, and whoever else we had at starting receiver (Matthews?) instead of Hill, not to mention playing behind a sieve of an o-line have looked like an MVP candidate?   

 

On the other hand, would Allen actually getting reps in practice in his first year, learning under Andy Reid, throwing to Hill and Kelce, and playing behind a solid o-line have looked better in his rookie season and then second year?  

 

In college, Mahomes was a gunslinger, not very accurate, with lousy footwork, but a cannon for an arm.  Sounds familiar.  He did play in a more competitive conference with better talent surrounding him, then did Allen, but both QBs were flawed.  

 

We can only hope that Allen develops as a QB...but to try and make direct comparisons is impractical.

[teef]

Just now, Forward Progress said:

For both McDermott and Beane, the character of the players is critically important in their evaulation of every draft pick.  This is even more true at the QB position as he becomes the leader of the offense, whether he is a natural leader or not.  Beane and the Bills scouting staff put tremendous time into the evaluation of the QB's in the 2018 class.  For McDermott to endorse Mahomes one year earlier without the thorough evaluation that occurred when Beane arrived would have been a huge gamble.  

 

In hindsight, we all saw what Mahomes did this past year in the perfect situation with coaching, developming behind a veteran QB and strong supporting cast on offense.  Would Mahomes have been a league MVP in the Bills' offence?  I don't think so, but I think he would have been very good.

 

This year we will see Allen's second year and I am hopeful that we will see a step forward.  I think our offense will be a "take what the defence gives us" offense.   I think we will get some more support from the running game, with the O-line upgrades and RB depth.  Allens running threat forces a LB spy, leaving one less defender in coverage and I think Allen will make better decisions with the football.

 

Mahomes and Allen will always be compared because of the trade, but our GM and scouting team were not in place to be sure that we got the right guy.  I agree with an earlier comment, that Whaley couldn't make that pick because he was on his way out the door.

i think this is spot on.  i don't think the offense will be terribly high scoring.  rather, i think the approach is to keep allen upright, have him making more efficient, smarter throws, and get more production out of the run game.  if the defense is very good and the offense can put up better but not gaudy numbers, this team can win 9/10 games.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

Trading away the chance to select Patrick Mahomes is looking like HANDS DOWN the worst personnel decision in the history of the franchise.

 

I've said it many times but hopefully the Allen/Mahomes thing turns into a Kelly/Marino rivalry where the Bills win even if they don't have the greater passer..............but Mahomes is looking like a likely top 10 all-time kinda' passer right now.

[H2o]

[Green Lightning]

2 hours ago, Element115 said:

 

Opposing views do not make one a troll, in fact, the ones always screaming troll are generally the fascists of the group.  

So Teef just nailed you as having your 5th name. Didn't see you deny that. Why all the names bro?

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That's certainly a fair viewpoint.

 

Let me ask this: suppose all 3 of Mahomes/Watson/Trubisky live up to the hype...and then 4 of Baker/Darnold/Allen/Jackson/Rosen become franchise guys.  Even if the quality of the '18 class on a per-QB basis doesn't quite catch the '17 class, which would be the better class?

 

Because that's part of the argument: if Beane and McDermott felt like they had a better shot at a franchise QB based upon quantity of available prospects, that weighs into it.

 

I also think that the appraisal of their passing on Mahomes is really quite simple: McDermott was here, Beane wasn't. McDermott didn't want to make a call on a franchise QB draft pick without having the input of his hand-picked GM, so he kicked the can down the road.

 

Right or wrong, that was the decision.

 

They interviewed Trey Brown from Philly--he's the guy that was on the Microsoft tablet commercial that aired all season last year.

That’s fair and makes a lot of sense. I guess my whole point is more that sometimes draft get labeled as a “better qb class” and it can be completely wrong. It’s happened a bunch of times in the draft.  But your point makes a lot of sense.  I was someone who really liked Mahomes and Watson so it’s been really hard watching how good they have been. 

[jkeerie]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

That’s fair and makes a lot of sense. I guess my whole point is more that sometimes draft get labeled as a “better qb class” and it can be completely wrong. It’s happened a bunch of times in the draft.  But your point makes a lot of sense.  I was someone who really liked Mahomes and Watson so it’s been really hard watching how good they have been. 

I didn't follow Mahomes that much, but really liked Watson.  Watching him this preseason has been brutal though.  He really hangs onto the ball much too long.  With the Texans Oline, he's going to get himself injured again.

 

I also agree with the takes regarding the Bills...particularly McD...not being in a position to draft a QB in 2017.  He was just learning about the team they had...and was in no position to decide on a future QB.  Whaley was on his way out and Beane on his way in.  So...I cannot classify not drafting Mahomes or Watson for that matter as a blunder, but rather lousy timing.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

My guess is you have never been accused of being a smart man.  Dismissing explanations as "excuses" is childish. That really is a red flag for me that I'm speaking to an immature person. 

 

You are advocating that McDermott fire the staff and hire his own to do in a matter of months what every other team in the league does in a year. If you can't understand how asinine that suggestion is, there is really no helping you. 

 

Seriously?  Childish is what I’d call making excuses - as well as your sad little comment about my intelligence.  McD was hired to run this team and you’re simply excusing a (rather big) mistake he made.  The bottom line is that it was his responsibility to build this team and he passed on a high quality prospect at what is far and away the most important position on any team. 

 

Many teams hire a HC and GM in the same year.  Some go the route the Bills went - hire the leader the first year and the other position the second.  But pushing a GM hire off a year does not excuse a miss like this.  It’s still McD’s team and it’s still his responsibility to get things right.  To not understand that kind of responsibility is definitely a sign of immaturity.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Seriously?  Childish is what I’d call making excuses - as well as your sad little comment about my intelligence.  McD was hired to run this team and you’re simply excusing a (rather big) mistake he made.  The bottom line is that it was his responsibility to build this team and he passed on a high quality prospect at what is far and away the most important position on any team. 

 

Many teams hire a HC and GM in the same year.  Some go the route the Bills went - hire the leader the first year and the other position the second.  But pushing a GM hire off a year does not excuse a miss like this.  It’s still McD’s team and it’s still his responsibility to get things right.  To not understand that kind of responsibility is definitely a sign of immaturity.  

 

Do you want to know how i know its childish? Because outside of sports, in the real world, and in the professional world, people don't say things like "that is just an excuse." They are calm, calculated, and tempered. When I hear people say things like, I know I am speaking to someone who does not work in a high stakes professional environment.  

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, jkeerie said:

No...That's not what I'm saying at all.  My point, which you obviously missed, is that you cannot make a direct comparison with Mahomes situation in KC and Allen's in Buffalo.  Would Mahomes in his second year under the tutelage of Tyrod Taylor, throwing to Clay versus Kelce and Zay, Deonte Thompson, and whoever else we had at starting receiver (Matthews?) instead of Hill, not to mention playing behind a sieve of an o-line have looked like an MVP candidate?   

 

On the other hand, would Allen actually getting reps in practice in his first year, learning under Andy Reid, throwing to Hill and Kelce, and playing behind a solid o-line have looked better in his rookie season and then second year?  

 

In college, Mahomes was a gunslinger, not very accurate, with lousy footwork, but a cannon for an arm.  Sounds familiar.  He did play in a more competitive conference with better talent surrounding him, then did Allen, but both QBs were flawed.  

 

We can only hope that Allen develops as a QB...but to try and make direct comparisons is impractical.

 

First off, Mahomes was an accurate QB in college.  It’s a big reason I wanted him.  Quite frankly, I didn’t want Allen because he wasn’t.

 

I am not making a comparison of what Mahomes would have accomplished yet here versus what he has in KC.  Nor am I doing that with Allen.  What I am saying is that the Bills passed on a superior prospect to take a lesser one a year later.  That’s independent of what other players were on the team. 

[Logic]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Trading away the chance to select Patrick Mahomes is looking like HANDS DOWN the worst personnel decision in the history of the franchise.

 

I've said it many times but hopefully the Allen/Mahomes thing turns into a Kelly/Marino rivalry where the Bills win even if they don't have the greater passer..............but Mahomes is looking like a likely top 10 all-time kinda' passer right now.

You're the first person to ever say this. 

Great, hard hitting, original, thought provoking content.

Well done.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Seriously?  Childish is what I’d call making excuses - as well as your sad little comment about my intelligence.  McD was hired to run this team and you’re simply excusing a (rather big) mistake he made.  The bottom line is that it was his responsibility to build this team and he passed on a high quality prospect at what is far and away the most important position on any team. 

 

Many teams hire a HC and GM in the same year.  Some go the route the Bills went - hire the leader the first year and the other position the second.  But pushing a GM hire off a year does not excuse a miss like this.  It’s still McD’s team and it’s still his responsibility to get things right.  To not understand that kind of responsibility is definitely a sign of immaturity.  

what big mistake? until this regime fails and or JA fails, you simply can not call it a big mistake. just because you and the troll want to praise the QB from kc all the while bashing this franchise for not taking him looks pretty ridiculous. especially when there is not a ***** thing you can do about it now since all is said and done but whine about it. let me ask, what does whining about it now do to change anything? it doesn't, yet here you are whining  and complaining about it.

 

this team is led by JA, not the kid in kc, you don't like, too bad. I 'm sure kc has room on their wagon for a fan of their QB.

[BarleyNY]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want to know how i know its childish? Because outside of sports, in the real world, and in the professional world, people don't say things like "that is just an excuse." They are calm, calculated, and tempered. When I hear people say things like, I know I am speaking to someone who does not work in a high stakes professional environment.  

 

Yeah.  In a job like McD’s if the Pegula’s ask him why he didn’t take Mahomes then he’d sure better have an answer better than “I didn’t have the GM I really wanted in place yet.”  I’m guessing in a job like his, he’s expected to make the right decisions to be successful.  In those high stakes professional environments they don’t say “that’s just an excuse” they just rid themselves of the people that make them.

[BillsVet]

It's pointless to debate the merits of McBeane's plan at this point.  Heck, they attempted to deviate from it this off-season by trading for Antonio Brown.

 

As a result, I don't think there is a "process" per se, but more of a framework they intend to operate within.  Opportunities may present themselves and they evaluate them in terms of where the roster is and the HC's scheme.    

 

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Yeah.  In a job like McD’s if the Pegula’s ask him why he didn’t take Mahomes then he’d sure better have an answer better than “I didn’t have the GM I really wanted in place yet.”  I’m guessing in a job like his, he’s expected to make the right decisions to be successful.  In those high stakes professional environments they don’t say “that’s just an excuse” they just rid themselves of the people that make them.

 

And T/K Pegs have shown they'll provide all the resources their GM/HC request and, absent results, will move on from those people.  They allow these types to prove they can't get it done. 

 

 

 

[jkeerie]

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

First off, Mahomes was an accurate QB in college.  It’s a big reason I wanted him.  Quite frankly, I didn’t want Allen because he wasn’t.

 

I am not making a comparison of what Mahomes would have accomplished yet here versus what he has in KC.  Nor am I doing that with Allen.  What I am saying is that the Bills passed on a superior prospect to take a lesser one a year later.  That’s independent of what other players were on the team. 

I stand corrected on the accuracy issue, but he was inconsistent in his decision making and lack of discipline was evident.

 

As to your second point...the jury is still out.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Yeah.  In a job like McD’s if the Pegula’s ask him why he didn’t take Mahomes then he’d sure better have an answer better than “I didn’t have the GM I really wanted in place yet.”  I’m guessing in a job like his, he’s expected to make the right decisions to be successful.  In those high stakes professional environments they don’t say “that’s just an excuse” they just rid themselves of the people that make them.

Lol. This is hilarious. 

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Yeah.  In a job like McD’s if the Pegula’s ask him why he didn’t take Mahomes then he’d sure better have an answer better than “I didn’t have the GM I really wanted in place yet.”  I’m guessing in a job like his, he’s expected to make the right decisions to be successful.  In those high stakes professional environments they don’t say “that’s just an excuse” they just rid themselves of the people that make them.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

what big mistake? until this regime fails and or JA fails, you simply can not call it a big mistake. just because you and the troll want to praise the QB from kc all the while bashing this franchise for not taking him looks pretty ridiculous. especially when there is not a ***** thing you can do about it now since all is said and done but whine about it. let me ask, what does whining about it now do to change anything? it doesn't, yet here you are whining  and complaining about it.

 

this team is led by JA, not the kid in kc, you don't like, too bad. I 'm sure kc has room on their wagon for a fan of their QB.

 

It really didn’t need to be a big fight.  It probably didn’t need to be revisited at all, but the fact of the matter is that it was a big draft mistake.  People want to argue that for some reason.  This thread could’ve been about a page long and amounted to “Yep, we missed there.  Mahomes would’ve been great, but here we are.  I hope Allen is better because he’s our guy.”  

Edited August 29, 2019 by BarleyNY

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I really didn’t need to be a big fight.  It probably didn’t need to be revisited at all, but the fact of the matter is that it was a big draft mistake.  People want to argue that for some reason.  This thread could’ve been about a page long and amount to “Yep, we missed there.  Mahomes would’ve been great, but here we are.  I hope Allen is better because he’s our guy.”  

Tell you what.  Go back through your post history and copy the one you posted before the 2017 draft saying Mahomes would be a star.  Or pipe down.

 

There were concerns about Mahomes in terms of his footwork and his coming out of an offensive scheme that had never produced an NFL quality QB.  He had a great season last year, and no one would have seen it coming that early in his career before the 2017 draft.  And if you say you did you’re not telling the truth, that simple.

 

This retrospective critique stuff is fun to do.  I still cringe over the Lamonica trade.  But it accomplishes nothing. It lets people who have nowhere near the data teams have a reason to beeyatch.