The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Please don't put words in my mouth or try to spin what I said, I haven't done it to you. I didn't say he couldn't play WR, I don't know where you're getting that from, what I said and have said is he can't play WR good enough. His skill set at WR, on it's own, was not and has not been good enough to merit a spot on any team's 53, which is a fact no one can argue with. My argument all along is he's a one dimensional player, who's too slow to play WR in the NFL outside of the redzone. Duke not playing special teams is just part of him being one dimensional.

 

If Beane & coach feel they have a spot open to bring him up to be a redzone threat, do I think they should do it....Hell yeah, that's the area on the field I firmly believe he's really good. Outside of the redzone, I'd rather throw to a guy who can create separation than a guy who can catch contested balls. That's my preference, it doesn't have to be yours. I have nothing against Duke and didn't know much of him early on this year, but he's been talked up on this board since February including a thread title stating he was "better than any of the WR draft prospects" or he'll be fighting for the #1WR spot. To be honest I was expecting more once he hit the field. 

 

The people who like him, like to make excuses whether it's about: they're not playing in pads yet or he's 4 years removed from college, 26 years old and still failed to crack the 53 or he wasn't claimed off waivers when Ray Ray was or the fact he's slow and his 40 time vs other WRs shows it. As I said before, I believe the comeback story has been better than the comeback player. But make no mistake, if Duke cracks the 53 and starts getting on the field, I will be rooting for him just as hard as anyone on this board. Just my opinion.

 

I restate my original comment you just quoted.  You’re using semantics now to say you didn’t say he can’t play WR while saying he can’t play WR good enough, which literally means the exact same thing.  You’re saying he can’t play WR in the NFL.  So I didn’t put words in your mouth, it’s literally what you are saying.

 

And I see you’re still stuck on your comment that he didn’t make a 53 last few years when he only had one tryout as an UDFA as a rookie with a bad reputation coming off an injury.

 

The reality is that teams were not interested in him because of his off field stuff and he had to go prove himself first and redeem his image.  Which he did, and that led to him being picked up by the Bills.  And he earned high praise and a PS spot with his play.  

 

We had 5 WRs locked in on the roster already, he was competing for one spot.  McKenzie played well too, and in the end they also needed ST player out of that spot too and that’s what gave McKenzie the edge as Duke hadn’t played ST before.  

 

Beane thought enough of him to bring him back until we get an opening via injury or poor performance from the other guys.  If he can show he can play ST too, he may get brought up faster.

 

So no disrespect, but a lot of your “reasoning” and evidence on why you think he isnt any good is pretty off base with the realities of his journey and story.  Not sure why you’re so obsessed with a guy you think can take play.

 

PS:  He ran the same forty time as Jerry Rice.  So enough already everyone with he isn't fast enough nonsense.  Doesn’t mean he will be great, but it’s a made up statement to say he isn’t fast enough.  Not all WRs are speed burners.  There is more than straight line speed to get separation and get open.    

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I restate my original comment you just quoted.  You’re using semantics now to say you didn’t say he can’t play WR while saying he can’t play WR good enough, which literally means the exact same thing.  You’re saying he can’t play WR in the NFL.  So I didn’t put words in your mouth, it’s literally what you are saying.

 

And I see you’re still stuck on your comment that he didn’t make a 53 last few years when he only had one tryout as an UDFA as a rookie with a bad reputation coming off an injury.

 

The reality is that teams were not interested in him because of his off field stuff and he had to go prove himself first and redeem his image.  Which he did, and that led to him being picked up by the Bills.  And he earned high praise and a PS spot with his play.  

 

We had 5 WRs locked in on the roster already, he was competing for one spot.  McKenzie played well too, and in the end they also needed ST player out of that spot too and that’s what gave McKenzie the edge as Duke hadn’t played ST before.  

 

Beane thought enough of him to bring him back until we get an opening via injury or poor performance from the other guys.  If he can show he can play ST too, he may get brought up faster.

 

So no disrespect, but a lot of your “reasoning” and evidence on why you think he isnt any good is pretty off base with the realities of his journey and story.  Not sure why you’re so obsessed with a guy you think can take play.

 

PS:  He ran the same forty time as Jerry Rice.  So enough already everyone with he isn't fast enough nonsense.  Doesn’t mean he will be great, but it’s a made up statement to say he isn’t fast enough.  Not all WRs are speed burners.  There is more than straight line speed to get separation and get open.    

Man you do love to argue. Just like the AB thread yesterday, you just keep going and going even after you say I'm going to make this last point then I'll stop...then you just couldn't take it and came right back. In my opinion you were wrong in that thread just like this one. 

 

Back to Duke. You stated he has the same speed as a guy who's 56 years old, really? The game has changed since then and Duke has no where near the skill set or work ethic Jerry had. Most of what Jerry did on the field came about by studying & being smarter than his opponent, working & training harder than anyone in the NFL. At the time, his workout routines were famous and after the word got out some of the best talent in the NFL started working out with him during the offseason. Great you just found the 1 in a million example, the one off, who entered the league 34 years ago.

 

You say he has redeemed his image and that is why he was picked up by the Bills, in which he continued to stay on the right path. With everything good you & others saw with Duke during training camp & preseason then why would no other team pick him up off waivers. Don't tell me because other teams are too busy or worn out or practice squad players aren't well known. Everyone evaluating talent in the NFL is well aware who Duke Williams is and the Bills even talked him up some before the cut and placing him on the practice squad. Also don't tell me it's because of his past, this league has shown time and time and time again that if a player has real talent there's always at least one team who's willing to put them on their roster & take a chance on them. Just look recently with AB, who threatened the GM saying "I hit you right in the face" then punted the ball and said fine me for that. Also look at Kareem Hunt & Vontaze Burfict  just to name a few. If you have talent the NFL has proven to be very forgiving.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Man you do love to argue. Just like the AB thread yesterday, you just keep going and going even after you say I'm going to make this last point then I'll stop...then you just couldn't take it and came right back. In my opinion you were wrong in that thread just like this one. 

 

Back to Duke. You stated he has the same speed as a guy who's 56 years old, really? The game has changed since then and Duke has no where near the skill set or work ethic Jerry had. Most of what Jerry did on the field came about by studying & being smarter than his opponent, working & training harder than anyone in the NFL. At the time, his workout routines were famous and after the word got out some of the best talent in the NFL started working out with him during the offseason. Great you just found the 1 in a million example, the one off, who entered the league 34 years ago.

 

You say he has redeemed his image and that is why he was picked up by the Bills, in which he continued to stay on the right path. With everything good you & others saw with Duke during training camp & preseason then why would no other team pick him up off waivers. Don't tell me because other teams are too busy or worn out or practice squad players aren't well known. Everyone evaluating talent in the NFL is well aware who Duke Williams is and the Bills even talked him up some before the cut and placing him on the practice squad. Also don't tell me it's because of his past, this league has shown time and time and time again that if a player has real talent there's always at least one team who's willing to put them on their roster & take a chance on them. Just look recently with AB, who threatened the GM saying "I hit you right in the face" then punted the ball and said fine me for that. Also look at Kareem Hunt & Vontaze Burfict  just to name a few. If you have talent the NFL has proven to be very forgiving.

 

Lol, you’ve been in here arguing with all kinds of people this whole thread...and about a player not even on the active 53 with some agenda to prove he can’t play in the NFL like he stole your girl.  And you say I like to argue?  Haha

 

And you can say I was wrong in the AB thread too, that’s your right.  Except, Gruden just proved my point and is now backing AB and over riding Mayock and not suspending him and having him available week 1.  If Mayock had no role in the turbulent relationship, then he would have gotten his way and suspended AB.  But like I said, Gruden, his other coaches, and his teammates have gotten along just fine with him.  Only Mayock has butted heads.  But keep telling me that Mayock couldn’t have handled it better himself as well as AB.  

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lol, you’ve been in here arguing with all kinds of people this whole thread...and about a player not even on the active 53 with some agenda to prove he can’t play in the NFL like he stole your girl.  And you say I like to argue?  Haha

 

And you can say I was wrong in the AB thread too, that’s your right.  Except, Gruden just proved my point and is now backing AB and over riding Mayock and not suspending him and having him available week 1.  If Mayock had no role in the turbulent relationship, then he would have gotten his way and suspended AB.  But like I said, Gruden, his other coaches, and his teammates have gotten along just fine with him.  Only Mayock has butted heads.  But keep telling me that Mayock couldn’t have handled it better himself as well as AB.  

 

 

This is the only thread you will find that I argued to anywhere near this degree, there are plenty that you have, you don't even have to look past the first page of threads to find one. One is an anomaly. the other is a pattern. Going all in on Gruden's judgement is foolish, the man couldn't get a coin flip right in 100 tries. You really believe with all the things Brown did just in the last month or so, he shouldn't have been let go? If so I'm glad you're not the guy who calls the shots where I work. Allowing one person to do what they wish while holding everyone else accountable has disaster written all over it. What you failed to mention when you said he's gotten along with the players is they told their coach they were good whether Gruden chose to keep him or let him go. That's not a vote of confidence from the players, it's we'll put up with him if you bring him back. The Raiders are only one of a few organizations that the players would rather have fun, than get serious about winning. This wouldn't fly with team that had a Brady, or a Brees or any team that had a coach with a spine. It really shows you how far the Raiders are from becoming a real franchise again, they're a circus.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

This is the only thread you will find that I argued to anywhere near this degree, there are plenty that you have, you don't even have to look past the first page of threads to find one. One is an anomaly. the other is a pattern. Going all in on Gruden's judgement is foolish, the man couldn't get a coin flip right in 100 tries. You really believe with all the things Brown did just in the last month or so, he shouldn't have been let go? If so I'm glad you're not the guy who calls the shots where I work. Allowing one person to do what they wish while holding everyone else accountable has disaster written all over it. What you failed to mention when you said he's gotten along with the players is they told their coach they were good whether Gruden chose to keep him or let him go. That's not a vote of confidence from the players, it's we'll put up with him if you bring him back. The Raiders are only one of a few organizations that the players would rather have fun, than get serious about winning. This wouldn't fly with team that had a Brady, or a Brees or any team that had a coach with a spine. It really shows you how far the Raiders are from becoming a real franchise again, they're a circus.

 

Lol who said I was going all in on Grudens judgement?  Discussing what happened does not mean I support what happened.  I think AB should be suspended.  Not sure what you are even arguing about anymore.  

 

And as as far as dialogue goes, I respond to those who respond to me.  I don’t drop a comment and avoid replies.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I restate my original comment you just quoted.  You’re using semantics now to say you didn’t say he can’t play WR while saying he can’t play WR good enough, which literally means the exact same thing.  You’re saying he can’t play WR in the NFL.  So I didn’t put words in your mouth, it’s literally what you are saying.

 

And I see you’re still stuck on your comment that he didn’t make a 53 last few years when he only had one tryout as an UDFA as a rookie with a bad reputation coming off an injury.

 

The reality is that teams were not interested in him because of his off field stuff and he had to go prove himself first and redeem his image.  Which he did, and that led to him being picked up by the Bills.  And he earned high praise and a PS spot with his play.  

 

We had 5 WRs locked in on the roster already, he was competing for one spot.  McKenzie played well too, and in the end they also needed ST player out of that spot too and that’s what gave McKenzie the edge as Duke hadn’t played ST before.  

 

Beane thought enough of him to bring him back until we get an opening via injury or poor performance from the other guys.  If he can show he can play ST too, he may get brought up faster.

 

So no disrespect, but a lot of your “reasoning” and evidence on why you think he isnt any good is pretty off base with the realities of his journey and story.  Not sure why you’re so obsessed with a guy you think can take play.

 

PS:  He ran the same forty time as Jerry Rice.  So enough already everyone with he isn't fast enough nonsense.  Doesn’t mean he will be great, but it’s a made up statement to say he isn’t fast enough.  Not all WRs are speed burners.  There is more than straight line speed to get separation and get open.    

 

The reality though Alpha is that he passed through waivers. I was slightly surprised he did. But it proves to me the NFL just does not value his skill set the same way it did 15 years ago. 

[Patrick Duffy]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The reality though Alpha is that he passed through waivers. I was slightly surprised he did. But it proves to me the NFL just does not value his skill set the same way it did 15 years ago. 

Or....maybe other teams didn't want to take the chance on him with his past off the field issues.

[Shaw66]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The reality though Alpha is that he passed through waivers. I was slightly surprised he did. But it proves to me the NFL just does not value his skill set the same way it did 15 years ago. 

Gunner - I don't think that's the right conclusion.  Might be, but I don't think so.  Anquan Boldin didn't play THAT long ago, and he was a monster ball catcher.  I think it's more about the fact that he's still too much of a wild card to take a chance on.   The only teams that have seen him in practice are Carolina and Buffalo.   (Interesting that Carolina saw him and took Ray Ray instead, I'll give you that.)   But no one else knows much of anything about how he practices, what his teammates think of him, all of that.   On top of that, no one has any recent film on him except for the CFL, and that doesn't tell them a whole lot, given the level of the competition.   Add that all to the constant worry that he'll melt down and become a liability and teams were reluctant to cut any know quantity they had to make a spot for him.  

 

We'll see.   He will land somewhere, this year or next.   

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Or....maybe other teams didn't want to take the chance on him with his past off the field issues.

 

Clearly they are passing on the whole package. But he came to Buffalo, kept his nose clean, played well in the pre-season and then was passed on by 31 teams. I think it simply comes down to his skill set not being as valued by teams as once it was. 

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Gunner - I don't think that's the right conclusion.  Might be, but I don't think so.  Anquan Boldin didn't play THAT long ago, and he was a monster ball catcher.  I think it's more about the fact that he's still too much of a wild card to take a chance on.   The only teams that have seen him in practice are Carolina and Buffalo.   (Interesting that Carolina saw him and took Ray Ray instead, I'll give you that.)   But no one else knows much of anything about how he practices, what his teammates think of him, all of that.   On top of that, no one has any recent film on him except for the CFL, and that doesn't tell them a whole lot, given the level of the competition.   Add that all to the constant worry that he'll melt down and become a liability and teams were reluctant to cut any know quantity they had to make a spot for him.  

 

We'll see.   He will land somewhere, this year or next.   

 

Exactly. Carolina took a bloke who put less on tape but fits modern NFL offenses. I know you love Duke, I know a lot of people here do. Ultimately I liked him more in pre-season than I expected to. But I think some objectivity is being clouded here. 

[Patrick Duffy]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Clearly they are passing on the whole package. But he came to Buffalo, kept his nose clean, played well in the pre-season and then was passed on by 31 teams. I think it simply comes down to his skill set not being as valued by teams as once it was. 

Exactly, he came to Buffalo. The only team that's really got a good dose of him practicing. Panthers only saw a couple days. So in any event, Myself nor you really don't know the reason he didn't land on another team. We can both speculate......

 

But what we do know is he managed to get on the Bills PS so obviously the coaches saw something they liked. And I for one believe he will get on the 53 at some point or another this season. So we'll see...

Edited September 6, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Exactly, he came to Buffalo. The only team that's really got a good dose of him practicing. Panthers only saw a couple days. So in any event, Myself nor you really don't know the reason he didn't land on another team.

 

But what we do know is he managed to get on the Bills PS so obviously the coaches saw something they liked. And I for one believe he will get on the 53 at some point or another this season. So we'll see...

 

So do I. I was surprised he passed through waivers. I think he will be promoted to an active roster either here or elsewhere during the season. But when someone does everything right and still ends up on a PS only you have to think skillset is part of it. 

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

So do I. I was surprised he passed through waivers. I think he will be promoted to an active roster either here or elsewhere during the season. But when someone does everything right and still ends up on a PS only you have to think skillset is part of it. 

 

Maybe, but teams do take those past off the field issues pretty serious at times. It can ruin a career. But whatever the reason is/was that another team didn't pick him up is fine by me.

 

Because I'm glad they didn't to be honest and I'm interested in watching him when he gets called up due to injury or whatever it may be when that time comes.

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So do I. I was surprised he passed through waivers. I think he will be promoted to an active roster either here or elsewhere during the season. But when someone does everything right and still ends up on a PS only you have to think skillset is part of it. 

Seems to me a WR who makes contested catches, has sufficient size to be RZ threat, and is a good blocker is a reasonable skill set. Whether other teams value that or not, it's something I think the Bills could use.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Dr. Who said:

Seems to me a WR who makes contested catches, has sufficient size to be RZ threat, and is a good blocker is a reasonable skill set. Whether other teams value that or not, it's something I think the Bills could use.

 

Look around the NFL and find the guys who do that but lack breakaway speed and contribute little between the 20s.  The Bills had Justin Hunter catch 4 touchdowns in that role a couple of years ago and still let him walk. It is just the league now. 15 years ago Duke Williams 100% makes an NFL roster. The game continues to evolve. I say for about the 5th time I am surprised he cleared waivers but he did. His off field issues were 4 years and he has been a model citizen in his run with the Bills. The reason he ended up on the PS is skill set. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Look around the NFL and find the guys who do that but lack breakaway speed and contribute little between the 20s.  The Bills had Justin Hunter catch 4 touchdowns in that role a couple of years ago and still let him walk. It is just the league now. 15 years ago Duke Williams 100% makes an NFL roster. The game continues to evolve. I say for about the 5th time I am surprised he cleared waivers but he did. His off field issues were 4 years and he has been a model citizen in his run with the Bills. The reason he ended up on the PS is skill set. 

I think I understand your point. The NFL may indeed no longer value that skill set and perhaps most teams think of that player as a dinosaur. I was told Sweeney would have been a second or third round pick a generation ago because he was a prototypical te for a bygone era. Nonetheless, he seems to carry value even today. Maybe Williams is Hunter redux. I stubbornly believe this Bills' team could use a receiver like that, even if to the rest of the league that is an anachronistic assessment.

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This isn’t really fair though.  32 NFL GMs didn’t give Foster a chance either.  People over exaggerate this part because the reality is that all teams already have their own “Duke” projects.  It’s rare a PS squad guy is in high demand.  I mean Bills led NFL with most guys claimed during cut downs, and that was 3 guys out of 37 cut players.  

 

The truth is, there are very very few roster spots available after cut downs.  Teams already made their own tough cuts with guys who already know the system and playbook.  Very few get claimed and put on the active 53.

 

Then it’s players choice if multiple teams want him for PS.  For all we know, lots of teams could have invited him to their PS and he chose to stay with the Bills.

 

And the number 1 reason he didn’t make the Bills 53 is special teams needs.  McKenzie had a strong preseason too, but he also is a good ST player.  None of our other WRs outside of Roberts whose only a returner has much to offer on ST.  Cole and Brown will never play ST, and Zay and Foster have no real experience there either.  

 

I would bet that Duke will be in a 53 sometime during this season if he keeps fighting the way he is.  

I expect him to get called up eventually and get some run.. He's got SOME value as a RZ target, etc. I don't expect him to be an impact player, so I don't quite get all the hubbub. 

 

But the good news is that he's right there on the PS and the Duke faithful will likely get their wish to see what he can produce. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Dr. Who said:

I think I understand your point. The NFL may indeed no longer value that skill set and perhaps most teams think of that player as a dinosaur. I was told Sweeney would have been a second or third round pick a generation ago because he was a prototypical te for a bygone era. Nonetheless, he seems to carry value even today. Maybe Williams is Hunter redux. I stubbornly believe this Bills' team could use a receiver like that, even if to the rest of the league that is an anachronistic assessment.

 

Brian Daboll disagrees with you. He wants speed. 

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

I was told Sweeney would have been a second or third round pick a generation ago because he was a prototypical te for a bygone era. 

 

Yep, I think that is right. 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brian Daboll disagrees with you. He wants speed. 

Well, I'm not advocating for a whole wr corps of lumbering bigs, but okay, if I had to choose, I'd choose speed as well. Don't see that it has to be just that, though as others have argued, perhaps you just use a te for the role I foresee for Williams.

[Shaw66]

I'm glad this discussion got a little back down to earth. 

 

Yeah, Gunner, I really like Williams, mostly because I like his story.   And I don't over-value him; unlike some folks around here, I think that the very best evaluation of players you can get is from the coaches, and if the coaches aren't putting the guy on the 53, then that tells me all I need to know about how much he can contribute today.   He's not as good as Zay or Foster; if he were, he'd be on the team.  

 

However, if McBeane and Daboll thought Duke's lack of speed disqualified from playing the modern NFL where speed is so valued, he wouldn't be on the practice squad.  Put another way, I think you're saying that if he had speed, he'd be on the 53, and I think that's right.   But the lack of speed doesn't disqualify him.  

 

He didn't make the 53 because he didn't offer a good enough package, and he made the PS because McBeane think that he can learn what he needs to learn to be a contributor in NFL games.  I don't know what that is, but if it were speed that he needed to learn, he wouldn't be on the PS.   I think they're objective is to teach him what he needs to know and do in order to be valuable enough to be added to the roster.  They're probably working him out on the special teams, so he can be a contributor there.   Maybe his understanding of the passing offense is limited - maybe what he's supposed to do now is completely different from what he learned over two years in Canada.   Maybe he lacks precision in running routes.   Maybe he's deficient in reading defenses, recognizing coverages.  

 

I don't know, and McBeane do know.   What I know is that Duke has demonstrated a very unusual and valuable skill - to come down with contested balls - and McBeane think he can learn enough of whatever else he needs to learn in order to play in the league.  

[transplantbillsfan]

22 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

Id be shocked if Roberts wasn’t playing

 

be shocked