transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 10 hours ago, stosh64 said: Zay has proven he catches just under HALF the balls thrown his way. 2017: 74 targets, 27 rec. 2018: 102 targets 56 rec That's a pathetic number, especially for a guy who was drafted essentially because he caught everything thrown at him in college. 1
Shaw66 Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: How many of those productive or HOF players still hadn't cracked the 53 man roster 4 years after leaving college? My guess is none. Duke not getting claimed by another team while on waivers, even with a couple highlight TD catches is very telling. He wasn't good enough to be even the 6th WR on any team? It's not like he's an unknown. Ray Ray McCloud got claimed and Duke didn't, that's even more telling. No one seems to want a one dimensional player. Zay is on the team because the coaches want him on the roster, not because of some love affair by Beane. He's still listed with the first team on the depth chart with a much better WR corp. But don't let me interrupt you please continue going on and on about he's this close to getting cut, when everything in front of your eyes says the exact opposite. Frankly, I think Duke was the victim of some NFL bias. When you bust in college like Duke did, then bust in the NFL like Duke did, the NFL isn't interested in your little comeback story. If you have a horrible fumbling problem and get cut from the NFL, you start selling your comeback story. There are dozens of guys with a comeback story, trying to get back in. They almost always fail again, so GMs and coaches aren't anxious to spend time on guys with comeback stories. So I think some of Duke's absence from the league is attributable to that. I'm not saying he's a victim, but I am saying he isn't exactly a retread trying one more time with his comeback story. He is a guy who actually IS coming back. Duke's a talent who's missed a lot of the formative years in college and then couldn't get into the NFL. He's a talent who has skipped a lot of what he was supposed to learn in college and as a rookie and now is trying to make it all up. That's what a lot of us think. He's different from the usual story. I mean, just watch the video of his catches in games and in practice today. Just watch it and appreciate how difficult those catches were. When do you EVER see guys catching the ball like that? You're absolutely right about Zay. He won his spot on the team, and apparently he, too, adds position flexibility. Zay's sort of like Brown, without the speed. He's sort of like Beasley, without the serious shiftiness. He's a little like a lot of people, but he is different from all of them. It's an interesting situation. There was a dogfight among all the receivers to make the 53. Duke was the odd man out, maybe clearly not ready for prime time, maybe ready. But with Duke on the practice squad and performing, Foster knows he's still in a fight. He has to do the things that make him good or Duke will get his chance to do his things. And Zay has to feel the same way - he's still in a fight for his position. In some ways maybe the most important thing Duke can do for this team is keep the pressure on the others. As of today, Duke said to them "I'm here and I'm not going away. Show McDermott you're better than me." 2
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Frankly, I think Duke was the victim of some NFL bias. When you bust in college like Duke did, then bust in the NFL like Duke did, the NFL isn't interested in your little comeback story. If you have a horrible fumbling problem and get cut from the NFL, you start selling your comeback story. There are dozens of guys with a comeback story, trying to get back in. They almost always fail again, so GMs and coaches aren't anxious to spend time on guys with comeback stories. So I think some of Duke's absence from the league is attributable to that. I'm not saying he's a victim, but I am saying he isn't exactly a retread trying one more time with his comeback story. He is a guy who actually IS coming back. Duke's a talent who's missed a lot of the formative years in college and then couldn't get into the NFL. He's a talent who has skipped a lot of what he was supposed to learn in college and as a rookie and now is trying to make it all up. That's what a lot of us think. He's different from the usual story. I mean, just watch the video of his catches in games and in practice today. Just watch it and appreciate how difficult those catches were. When do you EVER see guys catching the ball like that? You're absolutely right about Zay. He won his spot on the team, and apparently he, too, adds position flexibility. Zay's sort of like Brown, without the speed. He's sort of like Beasley, without the serious shiftiness. He's a little like a lot of people, but he is different from all of them. It's an interesting situation. There was a dogfight among all the receivers to make the 53. Duke was the odd man out, maybe clearly not ready for prime time, maybe ready. But with Duke on the practice squad and performing, Foster knows he's still in a fight. He has to do the things that make him good or Duke will get his chance to do his things. And Zay has to feel the same way - he's still in a fight for his position. In some ways maybe the most important thing Duke can do for this team is keep the pressure on the others. As of today, Duke said to them "I'm here and I'm not going away. Show McDermott you're better than me." I can respect that, good post Shaw!!
Shaw66 Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: In my opinion the comeback story has been far better than the comeback player. #LEGENDOFDUKE And I just said the opposite in similar fashion. The story really is about whether you believe, this time, the comeback story actually is true or. You're correct that to this point, the comeback story is flopping. At least in a sense, though, it isn't. The guy continues to hang around continues to give evidence that you can't ignore. The comeback story isn't over yet. 1
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Shaw66 said: And I just said the opposite in similar fashion. The story really is about whether you believe, this time, the comeback story actually is true or. You're correct that to this point, the comeback story is flopping. At least in a sense, though, it isn't. The guy continues to hang around continues to give evidence that you can't ignore. The comeback story isn't over yet. I've never questioned his heart, only his ability. Listen it would be great if everything clicks and he can somehow, someway get everything righted around and stay that way. He doesn't need to be a star player to do that. In the next couple of years if he can make the 53 and crack the starting line up then I believe the comeback is complete. If that happens no one will be cheering louder than me.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 10 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: There was in the 80s and 90s, but the game has changed since then. He slow and really couldn't be used in between the 20s, only for Redzone plays at this point. IMO put on 25-30 pounds and spend the year on the PS making the switch to TE, where I think he could be top 10 at that position. Good God. Let him be Hines Ward then. We all saw the Cover_1 analysis of his run blocking in the preseason. Start there. But he's bigger hand has better hands than Ward, so he's probably a bit more of a receiving threat. If Duke just refined his route running, he'd be even better.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 9 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: On bringing up Duke to see what he has, that's what training camp & preseason were for, he wasn't good enough to make the 53 man roster. He averaged under 9 yards a catch against players who are no longer in the league. The only people Zay has anything to prove to is the GM & the coaches, not fans. Your thoughts on where Zay & Duke sit on the roster is off the mark in my opinion. I mean if Zay's job is in such jeopardy as you mentioned can you produce articles or videos of any coaches or Beane talking of this? Because the depth chart off the teams own website currently has Zay with the first team and it was recently updated as Shady is not listed.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 9 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: Would the 2 TDs skew the number much lower, let's see? The catch against the Lions his momentum brought him out of bounds soon after catching the ball. The other TD he went up high and landed on the ground. If it's in the middle of the field the safety most likely touches him down and the play is over or he gets up and gets minimum YAC. If they do start making those passes in the middle of the field, the defense will adjust and Duke will be getting blown up time and time again. There are trends, I'll give you that, but the players & the game have been getting consistently faster and faster for 50 or 60 years. 9 hours ago, VW82 said: I agree with the points about lack of separation and incomplete route tree but the bigger issue IMO is he just isn't a good fit with Allen. Josh needs to see the receiver separate to want to throw it -- that's why the Beasley and Brown signings were so key. Also, when you're not technically open ball placement becomes a much bigger deal which is something we can probably all agree Allen struggles with. I don't mind the idea of retaining Duke as a practice squad specialist who gets brought up for certain match ups or due to injury, but the idea that he can be an every down receiver for Josh isn't very realistic. I like him more when paired with Barkley but hopefully we won't ever have to see that in an actual game. So this, I admit, is the biggest reason I don't think Duke made the roster. Fit. I wonder if Beane and McDermott want to feel out Allen's improvements, first. Because you could very well be right here. All of Duke's success catching passes were with Barkley this preseason, not Allen. Even those clips in practice today were from Barkley. I'm sure there will be a bit of a feeling out process there. 1
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Good God. Let him be Hines Ward then. We all saw the Cover_1 analysis of his run blocking in the preseason. Start there. But he's bigger hand has better hands than Ward, so he's probably a bit more of a receiving threat. If Duke just refined his route running, he'd be even better. Did you just say Duke is a bit more of a receiving threat than Hines Ward? Good God is right. Now a guy would can't even make a 53 man roster 4 years out of college is more of a receiving threat than a guy who had over 12,000 yards receiving.??
John from Riverside Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: Did you just say Duke is a bit more of a receiving threat than Hines Ward? Good God is right. Now a guy would can't even make a 53 man roster 4 years out of college is more of a receiving threat than a guy who had over 12,000 yards receiving.?? I just think back to Kelvin Benjamin How many times did Kelvin receive passes....often for touchdowns....that he flat just dropped? Does Duke drop those same passes? I dont think he does....if that is the case then how is he not a asset to the team?
Alphadawg7 Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: Man Alpha can you make your post sound more dramatic lol? Duke would absolutely get lit up a Christmas Tree time and time again if he kept going over the middle, during the regular season, against 1st team defenses. Heck Gronk got lit up on many occasions and he's no Gronk. If you don't think or believe that, that's fine we can agree to disagree. All offseason people were Duke is all this and that, he's one thing at this point a below average NFL WR, otherwise he'd be on some team's 53 man roster and that's a fact. In my opinion the comeback story has been far better than the comeback player. #LEGENDOFDUKE Again, your analysis isn’t correct here. All good you’re not high on Duke, that’s fine. But you’ve just been making these irrational statements to try and make your case. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but you also don’t seem to understand how hard it is to make another teams active 53 on cut down day. Some other posters addressed and explained this already but you seem to keep glossing over that. And no one claimed Foster last year either and he became a pretty impactful player for us after coming back up off the PS. Again, no issue that you’re not sold on Duke, but also don’t quite understand your obsession over him either. You just won’t stop railing on the guy even when he does some positive things. Why do you care so much about a WR on our PS? 1
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: I just think back to Kelvin Benjamin How many times did Kelvin receive passes....often for touchdowns....that he flat just dropped? Does Duke drop those same passes? I dont think he does....if that is the case then how is he not a asset to the team? He may be an asset, he may not. He hasn't done anything in a regular season game yet, he hasn't even suited up for an NFL game in his life. No one knows if he'll ever be an asset for us. I don't hate the guy and I'm not rooting against him, but when you see dumb things being said then it is what it is. Heck look no further than the post I was responding to.
reddogblitz Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: That's a pathetic number, especially for a guy who was drafted essentially because he caught everything thrown at him in college. this sounds bad. From watching games however i can say he's had probably more bad balls thrown at him by Hotrod, Wonder Boy, and Derek Anderson than anyone. Edited September 5, 2019 by reddogblitz
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Again, your analysis isn’t correct here. All good you’re not high on Duke, that’s fine. But you’ve just been making these irrational statements to try and make your case. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but you also don’t seem to understand how hard it is to make another teams active 53 on cut down day. Some other posters addressed and explained this already but you seem to keep glossing over that. And no one claimed Foster last year either and he became a pretty impactful player for us after coming back up off the PS. Again, no issue that you’re not sold on Duke, but also don’t quite understand your obsession over him either. You just won’t stop railing on the guy even when he does some positive things. Why do you care so much about a WR on our PS? Foster did next to nothing in college & even less in preseason last year. Ray Ray got picked up this year, yes? If you don't think my analysis is correct, that's fine, I believe it is. You don't seem to have a problem with pro Duke narratives that are irrational and there's plenty, why is that?
John from Riverside Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: He may be an asset, he may not. He hasn't done anything in a regular season game yet, he hasn't even suited up for an NFL game in his life. No one knows if he'll ever be an asset for us. I don't hate the guy and I'm not rooting against him, but when you see dumb things being said then it is what it is. Heck look no further than the post I was responding to. An asset as in the style of play - He run blocks....which Deb likes - Physical size/Physical style - Catches the ball in traffic....FIGHTS for the ball We can see this in the little we have seen of him....of course he has not proved it in an NFL game....do we not give him a chance because he has never proved it? At one point EVERY NFL receiver was a rookie....you could say this guy is a little more seasoned because he comes from the CFL
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 2 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: How many of those productive or HOF players still hadn't cracked the 53 man roster 4 years after leaving college? My guess is none. Duke not getting claimed by another team while on waivers, even with a couple highlight TD catches is very telling. He wasn't good enough to be even the 6th WR on any team? It's not like he's an unknown. Ray Ray McCloud got claimed and Duke didn't, that's even more telling. No one seems to want a one dimensional player. Zay is on the team because the coaches want him on the roster, not because of some love affair by Beane. He's still listed with the first team on the depth chart with a much better WR corp. But don't let me interrupt you please continue going on and on about he's this close to getting cut, when everything in front of your eyes says the exact opposite. To your 1st question: Kurt Warner... and I didn't even need to think long about that. The rest of that paragraph is idiotic. You can't prove a negative here with that argument. As for the 2nd paragraph... I'm actually pretty sure since Beane got to Buffalo the McBeane regime said something about Beane being in control of the 53 man roster with McDermott in control of everything else, namely active vs inactive. Beane has come out on multiple occasions this offseason talking up Zay. You're just wrong there. I hope Beane isn't, though.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 2 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: I've never questioned his heart, only his ability. Listen it would be great if everything clicks and he can somehow, someway get everything righted around and stay that way. He doesn't need to be a star player to do that. In the next couple of years if he can make the 53 and crack the starting line up then I believe the comeback is complete. If that happens no one will be cheering louder than me. He was a 5 star recruit when he transferred to Auburn and the #1 JuCo recruit. The guy is immensely talented. His problem has been stuff off the football field, which he appears to have under control. 1 1
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 2 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: Did you just say Duke is a bit more of a receiving threat than Hines Ward? Good God is right. Now a guy would can't even make a 53 man roster 4 years out of college is more of a receiving threat than a guy who had over 12,000 yards receiving.?? Hines Ward made his name in the NFL for being a willing and ferocious blocker. He caught a lot of balls over his very long 14 year NFL career. But he actually started his career as a special teamer, which is probably where he got his taste for hitting. Hell part of the case being made for Ward as a HOFer right now is how much he contributed to Jerome Bettis's induction into Canton.
BigDingus Posted September 5, 2019 Posted September 5, 2019 On 8/31/2019 at 10:35 PM, Bangarang said: All that’s left is his Allen will be an MVP candidate prediction. I really hope he’s right about that. Poor guy could use a victory for once. Yeah... That one was about as ridiculous as they come. I hope he's right too, but I also can't make myself believe something on blind hope.
transplantbillsfan Posted September 5, 2019 Author Posted September 5, 2019 9 hours ago, BigDingus said: Yeah... That one was about as ridiculous as they come. I hope he's right too, but I also can't make myself believe something on blind hope. You're saying it was ridiculous before even a regular season snap? How very dingus like.
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