The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[VW82]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

So Duke has limitations that will keep him out of the NFL, and Josh has limitations that the offense needs to be structured around to make him succeed.    Do you have any idea how wrong that is?

 

If Josh can't make all the anticipation throws that every other good quarterback in the league makes, HE WILL FAIL.   Windows do not stay open in the NFL, and QBs who wait to see the window open FAIL.  Tyrod Taylor FAILED.   The QB MUST be able to read defenses, anticipate and pull the trigger before he sees the receiver in daylight.   

 

And, although most everyone chooses to ignore this simple fact, MOST NFL receivers do NOT get open because they can create separation.  MOST NFL receivers get open because every defensive formation has weaknesses against a well-balance offense, and the offensive player whose assignment allows him to attack the weakness is the guy who gets open.   That's a simple fact.   Once again at practice today, against Kevin Johnson, a real NFL defensive back, Duke got open for a touchdown.  

 

Duke will either fail in the eyes of McDermott or he will get his chance in the NFL.   Stop telling us that you see something that makes it clear that he can't make it the NFL.   If you can see, McDermott can see it, and McDermott wouldn't have him on the practice squad.  

 

I never once said Duke can't make it in the NFL. I said he's not a great fit with Josh. Duke needs a QB who can throw in a tight window because he struggles gaining separation. Josh needs a receiver who can get open because he struggles with ball placement. Pretty simple. 

 

I disagree with your assertion that Josh will fail if he can't make ALL the anticipation throws that every other good QB makes. It's not that black and white. These guys all have their own strengths and weaknesses. We didn't draft Peyton. We drafted Cam. I'd much rather Josh pulled it down and ran rather than make an anticipation throw he isn't comfortable with, or just move on to his next read or check down. Play to his strengths. If we try and force him to be something he's not, then yes he will fail. 

        

I watched the practice clip from today. Nowhere did I see Duke getting open. I saw him make tough, contested catches on well placed balls where the defender had his hands all over it. Duke is clearly good at that. 

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Take the Lions game for an example, he caught a nice 16 yard jump ball TD, but got minus 1 yard on his other two recs

 

Do you think play calling had anything to do with this?

 

seems quite a few here think we don't need a big receiver with great hands because we're gonna run a NE Smurf style offense.  But even N E always had a big sure handed dude. And even though The Gronk was called a TE seemed when I watched most of the time he lined up like a WR and caught contested balls.

 

A big dude with sure hands can do wonders for a QB with accuracy issues.  Not all the balls are going to be right in there so it's good to have a guy that can catch those too.

Edited September 4, 2019 by reddogblitz

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

Speed and separation actually matter when it comes to being an NFL WR. 

 

 

Of course they matter, but a deficiency in a characteristic doesn't mean you can't play.  It's just a limitation.   Most players don't have great speed and most players can't get separation and they still play in the league. 

 

I learned the lesson a long time ago.   I watched Adrian Dantley play in high school.   He was fabulous.   I and thousands like me said, well that's nice, but he can't play big time college basketball with that size and style of play..   Wrong.   I and thousands like me said, well that's nice, but he can't play in the NBA.   Wrong.   The point is that players succeed with what they bring to the game, and there is not one set of characteristics that everyone must have in order to play.   

 

Nobody thought Adam Thielen could play receiver in the NFL.   Nobody bothered to draft him.   But, some will say, he had speed.  Sure, he had nice speed, and not much else.   Duke has this remarkable ability to come down with the ball in traffic.  Maybe that's all he has.   But that also may be enough to make him a player in the NFL.   Whether he can make it, I don't know.   What I do know is that none his detractors here actually knows either.   It's just foolish to say he can't make it when he continues to make plays like this.  

[MJS]

23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Seriously, then it's Wilson, Brees and Mayfield, plus Murray going #1 overall.  The point is, players were too short to play QB in the NFL until, well, they weren't. 

 

The only rule that applies is that you can play in the NFL if you can play.    

 Yeah, but for WR's that means being able to create separation, whatever method you choose (speed, size, route running, etc). If Duke can do that he'll be successful. If he can't, he won't.

 

So far I've seen him for a few snaps in a couple preseason games. I'm not going to bang the table for him. I have no idea of he can be successful or not. But he is slow and he isn't THAT big.

[Magox]

3 hours ago, ******* said:

Soooo if duke is actually as good as some people think on here why didn’t anyone else pick him up on waivers ?

Because sometimes players fall through the cracks for a time period.  The shelf line on this crack is quickly expiring.

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, MJS said:

 Yeah, but for WR's that means being able to create separation, whatever method you choose (speed, size, route running, etc). If Duke can do that he'll be successful. If he can't, he won't.

 

So far I've seen him for a few snaps in a couple preseason games. I'm not going to bang the table for him. I have no idea of he can be successful or not. But he is slow and he isn't THAT big.

1. As I've written, I don't think there are a lot of receivers in the NFL who can create separation.   The offensive coordinator creates separation.  If all receivers could create separation,  offensive coordinators wouldn't be standing on their heads trying to figure out how to run legal pick plays.  The pick play came into existence precisely because receivers CAN'T get separation.

 

2.  Yes, he is slower than most wideouts, and yes he isn't Jeffries or Benjamin big.   But I've watched the Buffalo Bills for 60 years, and I can't remember the Bills EVER having a receiver who consistently came down with the football like Williams has this summer.  

 

Like you, I won't say he can make it. I don't know.   But when I see him make the catches he's been making, I'm smart enough to know NOT to say he CAN'T make it, because he has a talent that few receivers have.  

[billsredneck1]

i won't be surprised if/when he gets poached and becomes an eric moulds.   imo mckenzie would have been the safe pick for the practice squad....assuming he's eligible for it.

 

i think duke brings more value to the position.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

You guys are talking about a lot of stuff that just doesn't matter.   He's too slow, he can't get separation, he should be a tight end, blah, blah, blah.  

 

That's exactly the same thing as people who used to say you can't be short and play QB in the NFL, until Wilson and Mayfield and Mahomes came along.   People who say you need a tall wideout.   If you can play, you can play, and if you can't, you can't.  

 

It's very simple.   If you can catch passes in the NFL, you should be in the NFL.   I don't care if you're too short or too slow or if you have red hair.   If you can get open enough for the QB to decide to throw it to you, and if when the QB throws it to you you catch it, you should be in the NFL.  

 

In Duke's case, there isn't any question about the actual catching part - he does that just fine.   He also seems to have been able to get open enough to have his QB decide to throw to him on multiple occasions.   The only real question is can he get open enough against starting NFL defenses, because most of his success has been against second and third teams.   But there is no way to know what he can do against first team defenses until he actually gets a chance to do that.   It's just pure BS to say he can't do it because he's too slow or he can't get separation or he's a red zone receiver but can't play in the middle of the field.   That makes no more sense than it makes sense to say Drew Brees is too short jto play QB in the NFL.  The only way anyone will know whether he can play in the NFL is when he gets his chance to play in the NFL, or when it becomes clear to the Bills coaching staff that he's so hopeless that they don't even want him on the practice squad and no one picks him up.

 

Answer me this:  if Duke never will be good enough to play in the NFL, why did McBeane put him on the practice squad?   He''s on the practice squad because he continues to show the potential to be a real NFL player, that's why.   And tell me he's there because they're going to convert him to tight end - he has no realistic possibility of beating out Kroft, Knox and Sweeney.    

All I know is Duke fights for the ball......if the defender is on him it is not an automatic that it is a non catch.....he fights for it

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

i won't be surprised if/when he gets poached and becomes an eric moulds.   imo mckenzie would have been the safe pick for the practice squad....assuming he's eligible for it.

 

i think duke brings more value to the position.

 

 

...I would be and I like the kid......he had collegiate indiscretions and got booted from Auburn......was a late Rams cut as a UDFA (2016)......did have two apparent reclamation and recommitment CFL seasons, but essentially is an NFL rook....."to poach or not to poach"......I say too early.....first OTA's/TC/pre-season stint at NFL level since Rams in 2016.....

Edited September 4, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[billsredneck1]

....and the giants jumped on david stills....

 

edit:meant to quote the above

Edited September 4, 2019 by billsredneck1

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

....and the giants jumped on david stills....

I think we get first dibs if someone trys to sign one of our practice squad players....and I TOTALLY would cut that 10th offensive linemen to make room for him

[coloradobillsfan]

23 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think we get first dibs if someone trys to sign one of our practice squad players....and I TOTALLY would cut that 10th offensive linemen to make room for him

 

I wish I would have saved the source because I can't find it now, but I read that when players get offers to sign with other teams they will typically ask their PS Team if they want to bring them up first (essentially 'matching' the deal).  But it is a courtesy, not an obligation.  Someone please correct me if I'm off base.  

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, coloradobillsfan said:

 

I wish I would have saved the source because I can't find it now, but I read that when players get offers to sign with other teams they will typically ask their PS Team if they want to bring them up first (essentially 'matching' the deal).  But it is a courtesy, not an obligation.  Someone please correct me if I'm off base.  

I've always assumed that agents told their players to do exactly that, because it's in the player's interest to stay with the same team, if he can.  He knows the system and the coaches.   

[Dkollidas]

If Andre Roberts is out (I think I heard on WGR that he had an issue?), then I could see Williams coming in this week and playing. Just a thought. But he’s behind Brown, Beasley, Zay & Foster right now. And that doesn’t even include McKenzie. 

[billsredneck1]

1 hour ago, Dkollidas said:

If Andre Roberts is out (I think I heard on WGR that he had an issue?), then I could see Williams coming in this week and playing. Just a thought. But he’s behind Brown, Beasley, Zay & Foster right now. And that doesn’t even include McKenzie. 

i believe he's gonna make a difference for us...especially posting up against gilmore....etc..

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Well we'll have to disagree with the terminology. Are you going to throw the two balls that were TDs in a real game, in between the 20s, against a first string defense with them game planning for you? Because if the first TD pass happens in between the 20s and with the safety sitting further back, Duke is going to get lit up on that play. Would you feel confident doing that over and over throughout the year? Because IMO if that happened more than a few times a year it would have disaster written all over it.

 

Not sure why you are so invested in discrediting Duke, but no offense your take here is pretty out there.  

 

Those were literally designed plays and calls for Duke.  His route and read were the primary.  So yes, absolutely 100% they make those calls and throws in those situations in a regular season game.  

Your proposed analysis of what would happen makes no sense and more importantly would be vastly different on any given play against any defense because it 100% depends on what play the defense called.  How you can just make up some make believe scenario about the safety without knowing personnel, play call, defensive scheme is puzzling.  

 

Its cool if you’re down on him, but you’ve really gone off the rails in a lot of these comments that really make no sense all for the purpose of selling your hot take on Dukes NFL future.  And no disrespect, but you’ve done this several times now in this thread.  

Edited September 5, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[transplantbillsfan]

12 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

  1.) I didn't say Zay has proven to be a great or even good player, but he is a proven player especially in this comparison. 2.) Maybe Duke has to work harder but it's because he screwed up a bunch of times, it's not like he messed up once or twice, it's all been self-inflicted. He needs to be the one to dig himself out of the hole he dug, no one can do that for him 3.) Zay's not the one that's disappointing between the two. Duke had the opportunity to play for a SEC Team and blew it. He tried out with the Rams in 2016 and couldn't land a spot on any NFL team, Since 2016 through at least to start the season 2019 he has failed to make a 53 man roster. He wasn't claimed by a single team when he was just cut and put on waivers. Not even by the Pats*** who could use some help at WR especially early on this year and have shown they aren't afraid to take a chance on a player. 

 

   Zay on the other hand was drafted in the second round two years ago and has been a starter in 25 of his 32 games as a Bill. He's made much more of his opportunities, not squandered them. Duke trying to turn his life around and make the 53 man roster is a great story and here's hoping he can. But I can't see him sticking on a NFL roster as is, he's the equivalent of a specialty player. One more thing....they may not play with Nerf footballs in the CFL, but they also don't play with NFL talent.

 

 

 

You put strange emphasis on Zay's time as a starter as somehow being meaningful.

 

Zay was part of 2 of the worst WR corps in the NFL over the last 2 years and wasn't even the best WR on either of those WR corps.  Last year Robert Foster was the best WR in Buffalo and the previous year was Deonte Thompson.

 

Zay is on the team because Brandon Beane loves him.  And honestly, I hope the light switches on for him this year and Beane's proven correct.  But guys like Zay who came out of college pretty highly regarded with pretty high expectations who utterly disappoint in year 1 and then are just "Meh..." and not even the team's best WR in year 2 get cut across the NFL all the time for unproven guys with lots of talent like Duke.

 

I want Zay to be good finally because thus far, for a guy who had some 1st round grades and who's biggest attribute was not dropping the football, he's been a bust.

 

And once again, Duke not getting claimed off waivers does NOT mean that he can't/won't be a very productive NFL player.

 

There are exhaustive lists out there of guys who've been cut/released in the NFL who went on to productive or even HOF careers.  

 

Just because the Patriots didn't claim him doesn't mean Duke Williams can't/won't be a productive NFL player.

[Don Otreply]

4 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

I never once said Duke can't make it in the NFL. I said he's not a great fit with Josh. Duke needs a QB who can throw in a tight window because he struggles gaining separation. Josh needs a receiver who can get open because he struggles with ball placement. Pretty simple. 

 

I disagree with your assertion that Josh will fail if he can't make ALL the anticipation throws that every other good QB makes. It's not that black and white. These guys all have their own strengths and weaknesses. We didn't draft Peyton. We drafted Cam. I'd much rather Josh pulled it down and ran rather than make an anticipation throw he isn't comfortable with, or just move on to his next read or check down. Play to his strengths. If we try and force him to be something he's not, then yes he will fail. 

        

I watched the practice clip from today. Nowhere did I see Duke getting open. I saw him make tough, contested catches on well placed balls where the defender had his hands all over it. Duke is clearly good at that. 

I’m guessing that this bit of practice purposely had the defender grabbing Duke throughout the route, to see How well he handles the pressure, and he makes the catch both times.  Getting open is fine, but catching the ball is more important every time.

 

Go Bills!!!

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You put strange emphasis on Zay's time as a starter as somehow being meaningful.

 

Zay was part of 2 of the worst WR corps in the NFL over the last 2 years and wasn't even the best WR on either of those WR corps.  Last year Robert Foster was the best WR in Buffalo and the previous year was Deonte Thompson.

 

Zay is on the team because Brandon Beane loves him.  And honestly, I hope the light switches on for him this year and Beane's proven correct.  But guys like Zay who came out of college pretty highly regarded with pretty high expectations who utterly disappoint in year 1 and then are just "Meh..." and not even the team's best WR in year 2 get cut across the NFL all the time for unproven guys with lots of talent like Duke.

 

I want Zay to be good finally because thus far, for a guy who had some 1st round grades and who's biggest attribute was not dropping the football, he's been a bust.

 

And once again, Duke not getting claimed off waivers does NOT mean that he can't/won't be a very productive NFL player.

 

There are exhaustive lists out there of guys who've been cut/released in the NFL who went on to productive or even HOF careers.  

 

Just because the Patriots didn't claim him doesn't mean Duke Williams can't/won't be a productive NFL player.

How many of those productive or HOF players still hadn't cracked the 53 man roster 4 years after leaving college? My guess is none. Duke not getting claimed by another team while on waivers, even with a couple highlight TD catches is very telling. He wasn't good enough to be even the 6th WR on any team? It's not like he's an unknown. Ray Ray McCloud got claimed and Duke didn't, that's even more telling. No one seems to want a one dimensional player.

 

Zay is on the team because the coaches want him on the roster, not because of some love affair by Beane. He's still listed with the first team on the depth chart with a much better WR corp. But don't let me interrupt you please continue going on and on about he's this close to getting cut, when everything in front of your eyes says the exact opposite.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Not sure why you are so invested in discrediting Duke, but no offense your take here is pretty out there.  

 

Those were literally designed plays and calls for Duke.  His route and read were the primary.  So yes, absolutely 100% they make those calls and throws in those situations in a regular season game.  

Your proposed analysis of what would happen makes no sense and more importantly would be vastly different on any given play against any defense because it 100% depends on what play the defense called.  How you can just make up some make believe scenario about the safety without knowing personnel, play call, defensive scheme is puzzling.  

 

Its cool if you’re down on him, but you’ve really gone off the rails in a lot of these comments that really make no sense all for the purpose of selling your hot take on Dukes NFL future.  And no disrespect, but you’ve done this several times now in this thread.  

Man Alpha can you make your post sound more dramatic lol? Duke would absolutely get lit up a Christmas Tree time and time again if he kept going over the middle, during the regular season, against 1st team defenses. Heck Gronk got lit up on many occasions and he's no Gronk. If you don't think or believe that, that's fine we can agree to disagree. All offseason people were Duke is all this and that, he's one thing at this point a below average NFL WR, otherwise he'd be on some team's 53 man roster and that's a fact. In my opinion the comeback story has been far better than the comeback player. #LEGENDOFDUKE