The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[Mrbojanglezs]

I feel like once the Oline has time to gel a few weeks they probably will cut one or two of the 10 (big number) OL put them on the PS and call up a CB and Duke.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

19 minutes ago, stosh64 said:

So we know what we have in Zay, a not quite 50% catcher and someone who does NOT fight for a contested ball.

During the start of this season, first 6-8 games, we will see if Zay has progressed into the next level NFL receiver.  We will see if he is willing AND able to come down with those contested passes.  We will also find out if his lacking ability to catch the ball has improved, as it must in order to remain with the 53.

 

IMO we need to bring Duke up and see what he's got.  Worst case he shows he is inept at the NFL level and we cut him.  Best case we find out we have an ace in the hole in the red zone and short yardage situations.

On bringing up Duke to see what he has, that's what training camp & preseason were for, he wasn't good enough to make the 53 man roster. He averaged under 9 yards a catch against players who are no longer in the league. The only people Zay has anything to prove to is the GM & the coaches, not fans. Your thoughts on where Zay & Duke sit on the roster is off the mark in my opinion. I mean if Zay's job is in such jeopardy as you mentioned can you produce articles or videos of any coaches or Beane talking of this? Because the depth chart off the teams own website currently has Zay with the first team and it was recently updated as Shady is not listed.

 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/team/depth-chart

8 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

It wasn't too long ago when Buddy Nix said the Bills needed a receiver who can be open even when he wasn't.  Strange, but he never succeeded in that quest.  That was not in the 80's/90's.  It was two years ago when the Bills signed Anquan Boldin to be that fill that role.  Kelvin Benjamin was on the team last year to be that and he failed because he was not strong at the catch point, imo.

Are really making a case using Buddy Nix as your GM in your example?

[JESSEFEFFER]

 

28 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

On bringing up Duke to see what he has, that's what training camp & preseason were for, he wasn't good enough to make the 53 man roster. He averaged under 9 yards a catch against players who are no longer in the league. The only people Zay has anything to prove to is the GM & the coaches, not fans. Your thoughts on where Zay & Duke sit on the roster is off the mark in my opinion. I mean if Zay's job is in such jeopardy as you mentioned can you produce articles or videos of any coaches or Beane talking of this? Because the depth chart off the teams own website currently has Zay with the first team and it was recently updated as Shady is not listed.

 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/team/depth-chart

Are really making a case using Buddy Nix as your GM in your example?

 

I am making a case that saying that WRs of that type no longer have a place in the NFL and that it's been decades since they did is wrong.  The trend favoring separation over catch radius is just that, a trend.  Whatever type of receiver a player may be, they still need to run good routes, be strong on the ball and make the catch.  As for the 9 ypc average, catching 2 balls in the endzone sort of skews that number lower, wouldn't you agree?

 

It was mentioned by many over the last eight months that there was a distinct lack of great catches by any Bills WR last year.  Josh is supposed to be historically inaccurate so where are were all the fantastic, Sports Center worthy catches last year?  I do not think there would be enough of a compilation to make an even 1 minute highlight video.

Edited September 4, 2019 by JESSEFEFFER

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

40 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

People keep making this red zone argument, and it just doesn't make sense.  Why would he be good in the red zone and not other parts of the field.  His ability, or lack of ability, to separate is MORE important in the red zone, where the man coverages are tighter and the seams in the zones are smaller.   If he can be a factor in the red zone, that means he's a guy you can throw to for five to 20 yard completions.  If he's good for that in the red zone, he's good for that all over the field.  

 

He'll never be a classic tight end, because he isn't tall enough.  He could be one of those tight ends who's primarily a receiver and isn't counted on to do any serious blocking along the line. 

Your not going to throw jump balls all over the field are you, especially from the slot position? As far as receiving is concerned, it's the only thing he has shown to excel in. He caught a couple 9 yard slants, but can he do it against 1st stringers. Based on where he currently is with the Bills, my guess is they don't think so. Take the Lions game for an example, he caught a nice 16 yard jump ball TD, but got minus 1 yard on his other two recs. That was in the second half playing against players who will not be on the field come Sunday. IMO people have fallen in love with a couple jump balls and his comeback story. I looked through the top receivers and admit I didn't look at all the TE, but of the top 8 TE last year all were either 6'3", 6' 4" & 6' 5". Duke is listed at 6' 3", based on that I think he would be tall enough. He would have to put on weight though.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

33 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

 

I am making a case that saying that WRs of that type no longer have a place in the NFL and that it's been decades since they did is wrong.  The trend favoring separation over catch radius is just that, a trend.  Whatever type of receiver a player may be, they still need to run good routes, be strong on the ball and make the catch.  As for the 9 ypc average, catching 2 balls in the endzone sort of skews that number lower, wouldn't you agree?

Would the 2 TDs skew the number much lower, let's see? The catch against the Lions his momentum brought him out of bounds soon after catching the ball. The other TD he went up high and landed on the ground. If it's in the middle of the field the safety most likely touches him down and the play is over or he gets up and gets minimum YAC. If they do start making those passes in the middle of the field, the defense will adjust and Duke will be getting blown up time and time again. There are trends, I'll give you that, but the players & the game have been getting consistently faster and faster for 50 or 60 years.

Edited September 4, 2019 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[VW82]

I agree with the points about lack of separation and incomplete route tree but the bigger issue IMO is he just isn't a good fit with Allen. Josh needs to see the receiver separate to want to throw it -- that's why the Beasley and Brown signings were so key. Also, when you're not technically open ball placement becomes a much bigger deal which is something we can probably all agree Allen struggles with. 

 

I don't mind the idea of retaining Duke as a practice squad specialist who gets brought up for certain match ups or due to injury, but the idea that he can be an every down receiver for Josh isn't very realistic. I like him more when paired with Barkley but hopefully we won't ever have to see that in an actual game.  

  

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Just now, VW82 said:

I agree with the points about lack of separation and incomplete route tree but the bigger issue IMO is he just isn't a good fit with Allen. Josh needs to see the receiver separate to want to throw it -- that's why the Beasley and Brown signings were so key. Also, when you're not technically open ball placement becomes a much bigger deal which is something we can probably all agree Allen struggles with. 

 

I don't mind the idea of retaining Duke as a practice squad specialist who gets brought up for certain match ups or due to injury, but the idea that he can be an every down receiver for Josh isn't very realistic. I like him more when paired with Barkley but hopefully we won't ever have to see that in an actual game.  

  

Based on the pass to Sweeney where he got down to the 2 or 3(Carolina game), I don't think Josh needs to see the separation as much as he did last year. There's a breakdown of the throw somewhere and you can clearly see Josh threw a timing pass to a spot on the field. Sweeney hadn't started his cut or looked back at Josh before he threw it. Can he do it often, we'll have to see.

[John from Riverside]

Was happy he cleared waivers and there to be put on practice squad

 

at some point this year I expect to see him up with the 53

[VW82]

4 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Based on the pass to Sweeney where he got down to the 2 or 3(Carolina game), I don't think Josh needs to see the separation as much as he did last year. There's a breakdown of the throw somewhere and you can clearly see Josh threw a timing pass to a spot on the field. Sweeney hadn't started his cut or looked back at Josh before he threw it. Can he do it often, we'll have to see.

 

I think Baldy highlighted that throw in one of his breakdowns. It was a great throw but perhaps even more impressive was Josh going through his pre-snap reads and making adjustments at the line prior to it. Development.

 

I agree Allen will likely be better this year at "throwing guys open" but if we're being honest he was way behind the eight ball at it last year. Along with accuracy and ball placement, throwing receivers open probably won't ever be something he'll excel in. We just need him to get to passable in those areas so that when combined with his tremendous physical gifts he can be above average on the whole. In the meantime, it probably makes sense to pair him with receivers who compliment his skill set. For the reasons listed, I don't that's Duke.    

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, VW82 said:

he just isn't a good fit with Allen. Josh needs to see the receiver separate to want to throw it -- 

  

This is nonsense.  Waiting for separation to throw the ball was one of Tyrods principal problems.  NFL QBs throw on certain keys, and if Allen doesn't do that it won't matter who the receivers are.  

[JESSEFEFFER]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Somebody actually posted a good discussion of this.   Very few guys get picked up off waivers after the final cuts.   The reason is that the guy is a complete unknown to your coaches.   They just got done making some very hard decisions about whom to cut, and they've almost always cut guys they like, and they almost always are happy with the guys they kept.  So they aren't ready to cut one of those guys who they're happy to have in order to acquire a guy they know only one thing about - the guy didn't make some other team.   And in this case, it's a guy who didn't make another team on a previous try, a guy who has baggage, and a guy who is relatively slow.   Duke isn't the kind of guy who gets added to someone else's team a day after the team got down to their final 53.  

 

I would think that the WR position is even less likely to move.  Not only do teams value their guys, they would value their guys that know their playbook and WR have more to learn.  I doubt a PS WR gets any reps during the week in the 11/11 time  running the plays in their teams' gameplan.

[VW82]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is nonsense.  Waiting for separation to throw the ball was one of Tyrods principal problems.  NFL QBs throw on certain keys, and if Allen doesn't do that it won't matter who the receivers are.  

 

The guys calling Bills games don't seem to think it's nonsense. Anticipation is one of the frequently mentioned areas for improvement. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by VW82

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Your not going to throw jump balls all over the field are you, especially from the slot position? 

No one throws jump balls in the red zone either, except hail Mary's.  You throw to the receiver who is in position to make a play, a player who has a window.  

 

So I will ask again: if Duke can create a window, a throwing lane when he is in the red zone, why can't he do it in the middle of the field where zones are bigger?  

3 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

The guys calling Bills games don't seem to think it's nonsense. Anticipation is one of the frequently mentioned areas for improvement. 

Exactly.   If he can't anticipate he won't succeed.  His job is make his decision BEFORE he sees separation, so your point about Duke needing to get separation early is wrong. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

No one throws jump balls in the red zone either, except hail Mary's.  You throw to the receiver who is in position to make a play, a player who has a window.  

 

So I will ask again: if Duke can create a window, a throwing lane when he is in the red zone, why can't he do it in the middle of the field where zones are bigger?  

Well we'll have to disagree with the terminology. Are you going to throw the two balls that were TDs in a real game, in between the 20s, against a first string defense with them game planning for you? Because if the first TD pass happens in between the 20s and with the safety sitting further back, Duke is going to get lit up on that play. Would you feel confident doing that over and over throughout the year? Because IMO if that happened more than a few times a year it would have disaster written all over it.

[One Buffalo]

Looks like Josh agrees that Duke's time on practice squad may not last long-

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by One Buffalo

[Shaw66]

You guys are talking about a lot of stuff that just doesn't matter.   He's too slow, he can't get separation, he should be a tight end, blah, blah, blah.  

 

That's exactly the same thing as people who used to say you can't be short and play QB in the NFL, until Wilson and Mayfield and Mahomes came along.   People who say you need a tall wideout.   If you can play, you can play, and if you can't, you can't.  

 

It's very simple.   If you can catch passes in the NFL, you should be in the NFL.   I don't care if you're too short or too slow or if you have red hair.   If you can get open enough for the QB to decide to throw it to you, and if when the QB throws it to you you catch it, you should be in the NFL.  

 

In Duke's case, there isn't any question about the actual catching part - he does that just fine.   He also seems to have been able to get open enough to have his QB decide to throw to him on multiple occasions.   The only real question is can he get open enough against starting NFL defenses, because most of his success has been against second and third teams.   But there is no way to know what he can do against first team defenses until he actually gets a chance to do that.   It's just pure BS to say he can't do it because he's too slow or he can't get separation or he's a red zone receiver but can't play in the middle of the field.   That makes no more sense than it makes sense to say Drew Brees is too short jto play QB in the NFL.  The only way anyone will know whether he can play in the NFL is when he gets his chance to play in the NFL, or when it becomes clear to the Bills coaching staff that he's so hopeless that they don't even want him on the practice squad and no one picks him up.

 

Answer me this:  if Duke never will be good enough to play in the NFL, why did McBeane put him on the practice squad?   He''s on the practice squad because he continues to show the potential to be a real NFL player, that's why.   And tell me he's there because they're going to convert him to tight end - he has no realistic possibility of beating out Kroft, Knox and Sweeney.    

[VW82]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.   If he can't anticipate he won't succeed.  His job is make his decision BEFORE he sees separation, so your point about Duke needing to get separation early is wrong. 

 

Well to date he's struggled making decisions before seeing separation and has had way more success in the reverse using his arm strength to make up for time lag. The front office appears to have noticed based on the receivers they brought in this year (and toward the end of last year). 

 

As far as not succeeding without anticipation, surely we can agree that there are degrees to it. Barkley appears to have tremendous instincts in that regard. I'm not sure Josh needs to get to that level in order to be an above average player given his other talents.

 

RE: Duke, he rarely ever gets separation so it's a bit of a moot point. Ball placement is the key issue with him, something Josh also struggles with. It's just not a great fit IMO.              

[MJS]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You guys are talking about a lot of stuff that just doesn't matter.   He's too slow, he can't get separation, he should be a tight end, blah, blah, blah.  

 

That's exactly the same thing as people who used to say you can't be short and play QB in the NFL, until Wilson and Mayfield and Mahomes came along.   People who say you need a tall wideout.   If you can play, you can play, and if you can't, you can't.

Mahomes is 6'3"...

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

 

Well to date he's struggled making decisions before seeing separation and has had way more success in the reverse using his arm strength to make up for time lag. The front office appears to have noticed based on the receivers they brought in this year (and toward the end of last year). 

 

As far as not succeeding without anticipation, surely we can agree that there are degrees to it. Barkley appears to have tremendous instincts in that regard. I'm not sure Josh needs to get to that level in order to be an above average player given his other talents.

 

RE: Duke, he rarely ever gets separation so it's a bit of a moot point. Ball placement is the key issue with him, something Josh also struggles with. It's just not a great fit IMO.              

So Duke has limitations that will keep him out of the NFL, and Josh has limitations that the offense needs to be structured around to make him succeed.    Do you have any idea how wrong that is?

 

If Josh can't make all the anticipation throws that every other good quarterback in the league makes, HE WILL FAIL.   Windows do not stay open in the NFL, and QBs who wait to see the window open FAIL.  Tyrod Taylor FAILED.   The QB MUST be able to read defenses, anticipate and pull the trigger before he sees the receiver in daylight.   

 

And, although most everyone chooses to ignore this simple fact, MOST NFL receivers do NOT get open because they can create separation.  MOST NFL receivers get open because every defensive formation has weaknesses against a well-balance offense, and the offensive player whose assignment allows him to attack the weakness is the guy who gets open.   That's a simple fact.   Once again at practice today, against Kevin Johnson, a real NFL defensive back, Duke got open for a touchdown.  

 

Duke will either fail in the eyes of McDermott or he will get his chance in the NFL.   Stop telling us that you see something that makes it clear that he can't make it the NFL.   If you can see, McDermott can see it, and McDermott wouldn't have him on the practice squad.  

1 minute ago, MJS said:

Mahomes is 6'3"...

Oops.  He grew. 

 

Seriously, then it's Wilson, Brees and Mayfield, plus Murray going #1 overall.  The point is, players were too short to play QB in the NFL until, well, they weren't. 

 

The only rule that applies is that you can play in the NFL if you can play.    

[Bangarang]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You guys are talking about a lot of stuff that just doesn't matter.   He's too slow, he can't get separation, he should be a tight end, blah, blah, blah.  

 

Speed and separation actually matter when it comes to being an NFL WR. 

 

Quote

That's exactly the same thing as people who used to say you can't be short and play QB in the NFL, until Wilson and Mayfield and Mahomes came along.   People who say you need a tall wideout.   If you can play, you can play, and if you can't, you can't.  

 

They actually aren’t the same. Physical attributes and an actual ability to play aren’t the same. Speed and separation for a WR is more like decision making and accuracy for a QB. 

 

Quote

 

It's very simple.   If you can catch passes in the NFL, you should be in the NFL.   I don't care if you're too short or too slow or if you have red hair.   If you can get open enough for the QB to decide to throw it to you, and if when the QB throws it to you you catch it, you should be in the NFL.  

 

I agree. Physical attributes are often times overrated.

 

Quote

In Duke's case, there isn't any question about the actual catching part - he does that just fine.   He also seems to have been able to get open enough to have his QB decide to throw to him on multiple occasions.   The only real question is can he get open enough against starting NFL defenses, because most of his success has been against second and third teams.   But there is no way to know what he can do against first team defenses until he actually gets a chance to do that.   It's just pure BS to say he can't do it because he's too slow or he can't get separation or he's a red zone receiver but can't play in the middle of the field.   That makes no more sense than it makes sense to say Drew Brees is too short jto play QB in the NFL.  The only way anyone will know whether he can play in the NFL is when he gets his chance to play in the NFL, or when it becomes clear to the Bills coaching staff that he's so hopeless that they don't even want him on the practice squad and no one picks him up.

 

Answer me this:  if Duke never will be good enough to play in the NFL, why did McBeane put him on the practice squad?   He''s on the practice squad because he continues to show the potential to be a real NFL player, that's why.   And tell me he's there because they're going to convert him to tight end - he has no realistic possibility of beating out Kroft, Knox and Sweeney.    

 

The coaching staff obviously thinks Duke has traits that are worth keeping around and coaching up. If he gets a shot on Sundays then I hope he does something with it.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Bangarang