The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[Rocky Landing]

6 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Ok and what about Zay? He was a star in college, was a high draft pick, made the team, and has improved from year to year, does he not get a chance to see if he can reach his potential?

 

I get that people like Duke and the underdog story he seems to have, and I do think he needs to be on this team just bc of the attitude he has (Zay I think would benefit from this attitude). This isnt a one or the other option, but it seems as if people seem to acknowledge that Duke can grow, but ignore that Zay can as well

I think the argument on this thread has started to center around this very question. It may very well be that it comes down to one, or the other. Personally, I think the chances of the Bills keeping seven WRs is very slim. We may only take five, IMO-- Beane has hinted at this more than once. 

 

They may feel that Zay has already reached his potential. In all honesty, I was very hopeful for Zay's improvement when he came back from the offseason 15lbs heavier. Would you say that you've seen improve this preseason from where he left off last season? I thought I saw him do some pretty athletic things in TC, but he seems to have the same issues with catch radius, high-pointing, and ball drops that he had last season. And, right now, if the choice were between Zay, and Duke (and it may be), I would prefer what Duke brings to the table.

[Bray Wyatt]

6 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think the argument on this thread has started to center around this very question. It may very well be that it comes down to one, or the other. Personally, I think the chances of the Bills keeping seven WRs is very slim. We may only take five, IMO-- Beane has hinted at this more than once. 

 

They may feel that Zay has already reached his potential. In all honesty, I was very hopeful for Zay's improvement when he came back from the offseason 15lbs heavier. Would you say that you've seen improve this preseason from where he left off last season? I thought I saw him do some pretty athletic things in TC, but he seems to have the same issues with catch radius, high-pointing, and ball drops that he had last season. And, right now, if the choice were between Zay, and Duke (and it may be), I would prefer what Duke brings to the table.

 

The only real drop I saw was the touchdown. He missed that one ball in Detroit as I believe it to be more of him not seeing the same thing as Josh did and didnt get his head back in time due to that.

 

And I personally do not think he has reached his potential yet, I am interested to see if he has developed a better rapport with Allen since last season and to see what he can do with a stable qb situation this year. All receivers drop passes, and if he can improve in that regard he can be really good. I think he just needs to go get the ball instead of waiting for it to get to him personally and thats all about mindset when the pass is coming your way, I think they keep 7 wrs and hopefully he can learn/see that as Duke does that

Edited August 29, 2019 by Bray Wyatt

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

27 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

He played with the 1s in the 3rd preseason game which is the final tune up for the 1s and he looked good.

 

I have to believe Duke is getting serious consideration for his red zone / blocking capabilities. He was key block on a long run by Gore 

He played with the 1st team on certain plays and during that time Josh didn't even target him and most of those plays were in the Redzone. He caught 3 balls for 15 yards and a TD all after halftime against 2nd and 3rd string players. His TD was a 16 yarder, which means the other 2 catches were for minus 1 yards. He averaged a whopping 5 yards a catch!!!!! In reality he made one good play in the 37 plays he was out there. The rest of the plays he didn't do much of anything except lose 1 yard on his other 2 catches. Now I ask, how in God's name is that looking good?????

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

48 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but you’re skewing that to sound worse.  He played last two years in CFL because he had to redeem his reputation, but you're phrasing it like he keeps getting tryouts and cut last 2 years.  Bills are only his second chance at an NFL roster, and after dominating in CFL he’s done more with his chances than Zay did this preseason.

 

Zay dropped a TD and blew another third down pass that should have been a first down.  Duke has caught all the catchable balls thrown his way, caught two TDS and made key blocks on other first down and TD scores. 

 

Im not saying he is a lock, that’s up to the coaches.  But he’s done more than Zay this preseason and more than the other WRs he’s also competing with.  Now it’s up to the coaches who they feel helps this team the most once the real games start.

Zay doesn't need to "prove himself" to anywhere near the degree that Duke needs to. McBeane know what they have in Zay, they've seen him for the last 2 years. Would you or would you not you say both of those statements are correct? Duke has outplayed John Brown also, but I don't hear you saying anything about that, why not? John Brown hasn't really done anything more than Zay over the last 3 years, he's had 1 good year in his 5 year career. Duke didn't tryout the last 2 years is a telling statement to me. Most "skilled" players don't need 2 full years to prove themselves enough to make an NFL team, most teams are very forgiving or turn a blind eye with players that have real NFL talent quickly(Just look at Hunt). 

[Dante]

On 8/26/2019 at 11:54 AM, dezertbill said:

Duke blocking grade was higher than our lineman.

 

And that catch vs. Lions where he picked the ball out of the air and then walked into the endzone clutching it above his head.  His body control and strength of hands are incredible.  I can see him be our redzone go to guy.

 

The Bills are clueless if they let this guy go.  As much as I like McKenzie, I don't see cutting Williams for him.

 

Honestly, Bills need to make a trade.  It doesn't make sense to cut talent.

I agree. We don't have a receiver like him. Looks like he could be a decent weapon in the end zone.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

20 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

The only real drop I saw was the touchdown. He missed that one ball in Detroit as I believe it to be more of him not seeing the same thing as Josh did and didnt get his head back in time due to that.

 

And I personally do not think he has reached his potential yet, I am interested to see if he has developed a better rapport with Allen since last season and to see what he can do with a stable qb situation this year. All receivers drop passes, and if he can improve in that regard he can be really good. I think he just needs to go get the ball instead of waiting for it to get to him personally and thats all about mindset when the pass is coming your way, I think they keep 7 wrs and hopefully he can learn/see that as Duke does that

Amen brother.?

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Ok and what about Zay? He was a star in college, was a high draft pick, made the team, and has improved from year to year, does he not get a chance to see if he can reach his potential?

 

I get that people like Duke and the underdog story he seems to have, and I do think he needs to be on this team just bc of the attitude he has (Zay I think would benefit from this attitude). This isnt a one or the other option, but it seems as if people seem to acknowledge that Duke can grow, but ignore that Zay can as well

 

Can you honestly say that you’ve seen Zay grow on the field from last year to now?  I can’t, not with a straight face.  He dropped his TD pass, blew a first down in a 3rd down throw this week due to poor awareness again, and has failed to stand out in a tense WR competition.  

 

A recent article on Duke in the athletic said this:  

 

“McDermott lives for competition. He tells his players when they walk through the door that it doesn’t matter when they were drafted or how much they make.”

 

Right now, Jones hasn't made the most of his opportunities in a WR battle he’s very much participating in.  Duke on the other hand has and got 2 more reps with the first team offense than Zay had in the 3rd preseason game as a reward for that.

 

Now I don’t know if that means they will keep Duke over Zay, as they can still also keep both.  But it sure seems that Duke has a legit shot to be on this roster.  Meanwhile, Zay hasn’t stood out and shown some of the same problems he’s had before with consistency in his limited opportunities.  

 

I think it’s more than fair to wonder how much more Zay can improve still given he’s still making the same mistakes in a preseason where he’s competing for his role and maybe even his roster spot.  

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[buffalo2218]

10 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

He played with the 1st team on certain plays and during that time Josh didn't even target him and most of those plays were in the Redzone. He caught 3 balls for 15 yards and a TD all after halftime against 2nd and 3rd string players. His TD was a 16 yarder, which means the other 2 catches were for minus 1 yards. He averaged a whopping 5 yards a catch!!!!! In reality he made one good play in the 37 plays he was out there. The rest of the plays he didn't do much of anything except lose 1 yard on his other 2 catches. Now I ask, how in God's name is that looking good?????

In reality, this is Zay’s 3rd year in the league. He hasn’t done all bad but he’s nowhere near the miles ahead of Williams that you’re making him out to be. Williams, despite how you try to downplay what he’s done up to this point, has produced more than Jones. Against whoever is beside the point. Jones did himself NO favors dropping a perfectly thrown pass against Indy. And I don’t care what numbers you pull up, as I stated before, when grooming a QB to be the franchise QB, dropping passes that are catchable will get WR bumped down if not worse

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Zay doesn't need to "prove himself" to anywhere near the degree that Duke needs to. McBeane know what they have in Zay, they've seen him for the last 2 years. Would you or would you not you say both of those statements are correct? Duke has outplayed John Brown also, but I don't hear you saying anything about that, why not? John Brown hasn't really done anything more than Zay over the last 3 years, he's had 1 good year in his 5 year career. Duke didn't tryout the last 2 years is a telling statement to me. Most "skilled" players don't need 2 full years to prove themselves enough to make an NFL team, most teams are very forgiving or turn a blind eye with players that have real NFL talent quickly(Just look at Hunt). 

 

John Brown hasn’t done anything more than Zay the last 3 years?  Come on dude...I get you want to defend Zay and I am cool with that, everyone entitled to their opinion, and no issue with you having a different one on Zay and Duke.  But that’s a crazy statement.

 

And John Brown has been the best WR in camp by everyone’s account.  He sat most of preseason for precautionary reasons.  Come on, let’s stay grounded here.  

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

59 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think you may have missed some of Duke's backstory, which is one of the things that makes him such an intriguing player for fans. He was a star out of HS, and at Auburn, but was kicked out of Auburn for a drunken bar brawl he was involved in. He wasn't able to play a snap of football for months leading up to the combine. He spiraled down from there, and got his life together in the CFL. I don't know how much of his story (outside of raw stats) you're aware of, but a lot of your knocks on him seem to miss, or ignore his history.

 

What we're seeing in these last couple preseason games is the potential that many saw in him start to play out. I'm proud to say that I predicted this, myself-- that once the pads came on, and the real hitting started, was when we would see Duke excel. I posted back in the Spring that if Duke made the 53, he could be the best blocking WR we've ever had. He's been showing that aptitude in the last two games, as well. You shouldn't ignore, or downplay that potential.

At 26 years old he would still be an NFL project who has shown he could fall off the rails at anytime. Like I said switch him to TE with his height, good hands & being a good blocker... he's too slow to play WR in the NFL and be good. I think in a year or so he could be a really good TE if he switched and put on ~25 pounds. He averaged 5 yards a catch last game on 3 catches and caught a 16 yard TD...do the math on the other 2 receptions. In reality he's had 2 nice catches against guys that either won't be in the league in a few days or will be riding the pine. 6 catches for 53 yards & 2 TDs versus subpar talent in preseason woo hoo!!!! 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

John Brown hasn’t done anything more than Zay the last 3 years?  Come on dude...I get you want to defend Zay and I am cool with that, everyone entitled to their opinion, and no issue with you having a different one on Zay and Duke.  But that’s a crazy statement.

 

And John Brown has been the best WR in camp by everyone’s account.  He sat most of preseason for precautionary reasons.  Come on, let’s stay grounded here.  

What has he done in the last 3 years that's is head and shoulders above Zay? Last year 42/715/5 vs 56/652/7, 2017 - 21/299/3 vs 27/316/2. In 2016 obviously Zay wasn't in the league, John Brown  - 39/517/2, Zay's averaged pretty much those exact numbers except with more TDs over his 2 years career. So as I said he really hasn't done much more, if any, than Zay over the last 3 years. In fact he's been very much Zay like.

[Bray Wyatt]

31 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Can you honestly say that you’ve seen Zay grow on the field from last year to now?  I can’t, not with a straight face.  He dropped his TD pass, blew a first down in a 3rd down throw this week due to poor awareness again, and has failed to stand out in a tense WR competition.  

 

A recent article on Duke in the athletic said this:  

 

“McDermott lives for competition. He tells his players when they walk through the door that it doesn’t matter when they were drafted or how much they make.”

 

Right now, Jones hasn't made the most of his opportunities in a WR battle he’s very much participating in.  Duke on the other hand has and got 2 more reps with the first team offense than Zay had in the 3rd preseason game as a reward for that.

 

Now I don’t know if that means they will keep Duke over Zay, as they can still also keep both.  But it sure seems that Duke has a legit shot to be on this roster.  Meanwhile, Zay hasn’t stood out and shown some of the same problems he’s had before with consistency in his limited opportunities.  

 

I think it’s more than fair to wonder how much more Zay can improve still given he’s still making the same mistakes in a preseason where he’s competing for his role and maybe even his roster spot.  

 

 

Zay improved from year 1 to 2 no doubt and that was with an offense that was sub par due to oline and qb issues. The sample size is too small for pre season to give an accurate depiction and I am not there in practice every day to be that judge. But think about this, Foster is basically sidelined with a toe injury, brown and Beasley are new to the offense, and you think the one guy who was here all last year in this offense and is starting to build a rapport with Allen won’t make the team? I am not buying it. 

[Rocky Landing]

24 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

At 26 years old he would still be an NFL project who has shown he could fall off the rails at anytime. Like I said switch him to TE with his height, good hands & being a good blocker... he's too slow to play WR in the NFL and be good. I think in a year or so he could be a really good TE if he switched and put on ~25 pounds. He averaged 5 yards a catch last game on 3 catches and caught a 16 yard TD...do the math on the other 2 receptions. In reality he's had 2 nice catches against guys that either won't be in the league in a few days or will be riding the pine. 6 catches for 53 yards & 2 TDs versus subpar talent in preseason woo hoo!!!! 

I guess the bottom line is that I don’t agree with your take on Duke Williams. At all. I think your reliance on bare numbers is shortsighted, and incomplete. And your dismissal of his abilities, and the aptitude’s he has shown so far is biased. Whether it’s in a Bills uniform, or not, I do believe that Duke Williams will prove you wrong. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said:

I guess the bottom line is that I don’t agree with your take on Duke Williams. At all. I think your reliance on bare numbers is shortsighted, and incomplete. And your dismissal of his abilities, and the aptitude’s he has shown so far is biased. Whether it’s in a Bills uniform, or not, I do believe that Duke Williams will prove you wrong. 

We'll see, but he's already turned 26 in May and time is running out for him to catch on an NFL team and do what you think he's going to do. Tick...Tick...Tick.

[Rocky Landing]

4 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

We'll see, but he's already turned 26 in May and time is running out for him to catch on an NFL team and do what you think he's going to do. Tick...Tick...Tick.

Yeah, you've mentioned that.

[ChicagoRic]

LovemesomemakingexcusesforZay.  LovemesomeignoringanddownplayingwhatWilliamshasdoneonthefield.  Sheesh.  Not sure if a broken record or just a straight up troll.

[Bray Wyatt]

4 wr sitting tonight, Beasley brown Roberts and zay.......

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

What has he done in the last 3 years that's is head and shoulders above Zay? Last year 42/715/5 vs 56/652/7, 2017 - 21/299/3 vs 27/316/2. In 2016 obviously Zay wasn't in the league, John Brown  - 39/517/2, Zay's averaged pretty much those exact numbers except with more TDs over his 2 years career. So as I said he really hasn't done much more, if any, than Zay over the last 3 years. In fact he's been very much Zay like.

No, just no. In the 9 games he played with Flacco, he had 34 receptions for 601 yards (prorated over 16 games - 60 receptions for 1,068 yards, 17.8 ypr, and 7.5 TDs, which is obviously very good). In Flacco's final start, Brown was targeted 6 times (3 catches for 15 yds) but he also was the beneficiary of a DPI call on Pittsburgh on a bomb that moved the Ravens 33 yards down the field.  ALL of his decline last year can be attributed to Jackson. Jackson threw 31 passes his way, and only 8 resulted in completions. 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Zay improved from year 1 to 2 no doubt and that was with an offense that was sub par due to oline and qb issues. The sample size is too small for pre season to give an accurate depiction and I am not there in practice every day to be that judge. But think about this, Foster is basically sidelined with a toe injury, brown and Beasley are new to the offense, and you think the one guy who was here all last year in this offense and is starting to build a rapport with Allen won’t make the team? I am not buying it. 

 

Keep in mind, I’ve always said it was doubtful they would cut him.  Others are speculating they would cut him.  My stance was I thought he could be traded during preseason if he wasn’t rising to the challenge of the WR competition.  

 

What I do know is that Zay has not made the most of his limited opportunities and hasn't really outshined the guys he’s competing with.  And that’s the reason he’s earned the speculation, even if he still makes the team, he has earned the criticisms on the field again himself by making the same mistakes he’s made in the past.  

Edited August 29, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

46 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No, just no. In the 9 games he played with Flacco, he had 34 receptions for 601 yards (prorated over 16 games - 60 receptions for 1,068 yards, 17.8 ypr, and 7.5 TDs, which is obviously very good). In Flacco's final start, Brown was targeted 6 times (3 catches for 15 yds) but he also was the beneficiary of a DPI call on Pittsburgh on a bomb that moved the Ravens 33 yards down the field.  ALL of his decline last year can be attributed to Jackson. Jackson threw 31 passes his way, and only 8 resulted in completions. 

 

No just no back at ya. Zay had to play with Peterman, Anderson, Barkley & a rookie Josh Allen, who ended up the teams leading rusher & breaking the team's single season QB rushing record. The year before he was a rookie and had Taylor & Peterman in a season Taylor broke the team's single season QB rushing record. Zay hasn't had anything to work with at QB either, it works both ways.