The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[JoPar_v2]

3 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

 

 

Yes, yes. I always do when they obviously don't tell the whole story. Maybe you should look at more than just stats sometimes, help you understand the game more. Knowledge is power.

 

But they do tell SOME of the story? Right? So why dismiss them outright? All of the less quantifiable things you mentioned: the blocking, the route running, are true - i am not dismissing them. Woods is a great blocker. Zay’s not on his level. And Jones needs to be a better route runner as well - which is why it’s noticable that, despite that, Jones seems to get open quite a bit.

[colin]

i'm pretty agnostic on Zay, would be a bit of a surprise to see him cut but not a shock.

 

He just seems to have something in his head preventing him from putting it all together.  He can catch, he can run routes, he can find a soft spot, he can block, but he just can't seem to do it when it matters most.  he's not a burner and is kinda lacking in short area quickness, so he really needs to run good routes (which he does, but only sometimes) and use his body and hands to full advantage.  he caught all kinds of odd balls in college, so i think he is capable, but something is wrong with his mind on the pitch.  i'd love to see him click and ball out, but not sure he will especially given our young QB and lots of new people on O, he won't have many chances to show improve, and the coaches may have already moved on.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

But they do tell SOME of the story? Right? So why dismiss them outright? All of the less quantifiable things you mentioned: the blocking, the route running, are true - i am not dismissing them. Woods is a great blocker. Zay’s not on his level. And Jones needs to be a better route runner as well - which is why it’s noticable that, despite that, Jones seems to get open quite a bit.

 

Yes obviously they tell some of it, but need to see the whole picture. Other poster said Zay is the same as Woods, ok, maybe similar in the "stats" category. As a WR in general clearly Woods is the better option and I don't see how that can be debated IMO.

 

I question ones eyesight or they clearly are ONLY looking at stats to say such a thing. Woods was never known for dropping footballs they way Zay has the past few years, Woods is clearly a better blocker than Zay , and Woods is a better route runner IMO (I'm sure I'm not alone in this thought).

 

And when you put that into it, obviously Woods is the better WR as a whole.

6 minutes ago, colin said:

i'm pretty agnostic on Zay, would be a bit of a surprise to see him cut but not a shock.

 

He just seems to have something in his head preventing him from putting it all together.  He can catch, he can run routes, he can find a soft spot, he can block, but he just can't seem to do it when it matters most.  he's not a burner and is kinda lacking in short area quickness, so he really needs to run good routes (which he does, but only sometimes) and use his body and hands to full advantage.  he caught all kinds of odd balls in college, so i think he is capable, but something is wrong with his mind on the pitch.  i'd love to see him click and ball out, but not sure he will especially given our young QB and lots of new people on O, he won't have many chances to show improve, and the coaches may have already moved on.

 

My personal opinion is he did well in college, yes. When he got to the big leagues he got shook up and scared to get hit which makes him drop the ball in some cases I would think. Maybe the pros just got into his head and he can't continue the success he once had in college.

 

Anyways, of course that just my opinion.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

It’s very simple:

1. I think WR is tough to transition from college to the NFL. High picks should get 3 seasons.

2. Jones improved year 1 to year 2 (even though year 1 was pretty abysmal, the numbers went way up);

3. The number of drops are exaggerated by many here, which makes me want to pull my hair out;

4. Duke is intriguing, but I have no idea how he’s going to perform against starting-level NFL secondaries yet. No one does. At least with Jones there’s 2 seasons of tape.

 

All that said if Jones does stay and doesn’t significantly improve year 3, he should probably go. And maybe he will end up like Woods on another team with a functional passing offense and we’ll all have a laugh.

 

You see, the problem is right there in number 1.  "High picks should get three seasons."    I agree that it often takes receivers three seasons to become full-fledged, but in the NFL and particularly in McDermott land, nobody GETS anything.  You EARN your roster spot.  

 

How do you earn it?  By being better now and by projecting better.  As for projecting better, that is Duke hands down.  As you say, he hasn't had a chance to learn to play against NFL defenses.  Zay has had two seasons, less injury time. And two training camps.  He is way ahead of Duke in that regard, so we should expect much more improvement from Duke than from Zay.  

 

So who is better right now?  Tough to say.  I'd bet Zay is the better route runner, just by virtue of his experience in the system.  Duke has better hands, no doubt.  Speed is about even, I think.  Neither is a burner, but I'd give Zay the edge.  Blocking, probably give the edge to Duke.  

 

And then, since they're competing in McDermott land, there is heart, character and competitiveness. Allen and Barkley both have commented, almost in awe, about Duke's "hunger."   Duke wants it, first thing in the morning and last thing at night.  He fights for the ball like it's a loaf of bread and he hasn't eaten in two weeks.  Nobody has ever said anything like that about Zay.  

 

So, sure, it would be nice to "give" your high pick three seasons, but he only gets those three seasons if he is good enough.  Unfortunately for Zay, in the off season the Bills acquired Beasley, Brown and Williams.  Zay will definitely get his three seasons, but there is a real chance that the third will be in a different uniform. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Shaw66

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, colin said:

i'm pretty agnostic on Zay, would be a bit of a surprise to see him cut but not a shock.

 

He just seems to have something in his head preventing him from putting it all together.  He can catch, he can run routes, he can find a soft spot, he can block, but he just can't seem to do it when it matters most.  he's not a burner and is kinda lacking in short area quickness, so he really needs to run good routes (which he does, but only sometimes) and use his body and hands to full advantage.  he caught all kinds of odd balls in college, so i think he is capable, but something is wrong with his mind on the pitch.  i'd love to see him click and ball out, but not sure he will especially given our young QB and lots of new people on O, he won't have many chances to show improve, and the coaches may have already moved on.

That's how I view him.  Frankly getting traded or cut might be the wake up call he needs.  Duke got his wake up call in college and then when he couldn't stick in the NFL. He got focuses and got determined. Zay sometimes seems like he expects it will come easy.  It seems that Duke is showing him the kind of commitment it takes to make it in the NFL.  

[JoPar_v2]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

So, sure, it would be nice to "give" your high pick three seasons, but he only gets those three seasons if he is good enough.  Unfortunately for Zay, in the off season the Bills acquired Beasley, Brown and Williams.  Zay will definitely get his three seasons, but there is a real chance that the third will be in a different uniform. 

 

He gets three seasons mostly by virtue of his position, not where he was drafted, but let’s face it, higher round picks get more rope. WR is a slower developing position than say, tackle. So that’s where I was going with that.

 

To say Zay hasn’t “earned” that third season, being the top WR on this team last season while improving from his first, is disingenuous. 

[ChicagoRic]

I am hoping that Zay makes the year 3 leap.  In my opinion he is is zero danger of being cut, but this is very much a make or break year for him.  My biggest frustration with Jones is that he manages to get open, and the ball is delivered on the money, and he make an easy catch look difficult.  Too many bobbles, double clutches and outright drops.  Too many times where he should fight for the ball and just doesn't.  For all his speed, size and agility, he has not put it all together yet.  I know this is really intangible, but to me he often does not look confident making plays.  I often wonder if all those drops in year 1 got to him mentally and he has yet to shake it off.  

 

If he can get out of his own head, Zay can be a really good WR.  Will this be the year?

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

He gets three seasons mostly by virtue of his position, not where he was drafted, but let’s face it, higher round picks get more rope. WR is a slower developing position than say, tackle. So that’s where I was going with that.

 

To say Zay hasn’t “earned” that third season, being the top WR on this team last season while improving from his first, is disingenuous. 

Last season is irrelevant. He was the number receiver on a team with nobody else.  This season he is competing with two guys who have been to the pro bowl and one guy who led the league in Canada.  It's a whole new ball game.

 

The Bills are upgrading their talent all across the roster. Good players are going to get cut or traded, and it will happen again next season.  It just so happens that Zay may be one of those players.  

2 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

I am hoping that Zay makes the year 3 leap.  In my opinion he is is zero danger of being cut, but this is very much a make or break year for him.  My biggest frustration with Jones is that he manages to get open, and the ball is delivered on the money, and he make an easy catch look difficult.  Too many bobbles, double clutches and outright drops.  Too many times where he should fight for the ball and just doesn't.  For all his speed, size and agility, he has not put it all together yet.  I know this is really intangible, but to me he often does not look confident making plays.  I often wonder if all those drops in year 1 got to him mentally and he has yet to shake it off.  

 

If he can get out of his own head, Zay can be a really good WR.  Will this be the year?

So would you cut Duke, who clearly does NOT have the problems you see with Zay?

[ChicagoRic]

No.  Zay is in zero danger of being cut because of his draft position, college pedigree, etc.  That's not my choice, I'm just being realistic.  If I had to choose between Duke Williams and Zay Jones, then Jones would be packing his bags.  Or Williams vs McKenzie.  Bye McKenzie, I read your bags are already packed.  Check my post history, I am Duke Williams fanboy from the get go.  For all the adversity Williams has been through, when he hits the field he looks like he belongs. 

[JoPar_v2]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Last season is irrelevant. He was the number receiver on a team with nobody else.  This season he is competing with two guys who have been to the pro bowl and one guy who led the league in Canada.  It's a whole new ball game.

 

 

LOL. So last season is irrelevant but Duke's career in the freaking CFL isn't. Jeeeeeeesus.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

LOL. So last season is irrelevant but Duke's career in the freaking CFL isn't. Jeeeeeeesus.

Brown, Beasley and Williams each has had significant accomplishments in their pro careers, which suggests some level of talent.  Jones has not.  Leading the 2018 Bills, 31st in the league in passing, with 600 receiving yards is not a significant accomplishment and does not suggest any level of talent.  

[JoPar_v2]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

Brown, Beasley and Williams each has had significant accomplishments in their pro careers, which suggests some level of talent.  Jones has not.  Leading the 2018 Bills, 31st in the league in passing, with 600 receiving yards is not a significant accomplishment and does not suggest any level of talent.  

 

Lol. Wanna know John Brown’s best year as far as receiving TDs? 7. 5 years ago with a much better QB than Josh Allen. Same number as Zay last year. Isn’t john Brown here to be our homerun hitter? And sure the CFL is technically a “pro” league. Relevant to projecting NFL production? Hell no. If it were, you’d see CFL leaders getting snatched up every offseason. 

 

Look, i don’t know if your stubborn, or just woefully misinformed, but there’s no talking to you. Yes sure Duke Williams is a all-pro in the making and Zay Jones doesn’t deserve to haul his jock. We all happy now? Christ

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

You see, the problem is right there in number 1.  "High picks should get three seasons."    I agree that it often takes receivers three seasons to become full-fledged, but in the NFL and particularly in McDermott land, nobody GETS anything.  You EARN your roster spot.  

 

How do you earn it?  By being better now and by projecting better.  As for projecting better, that is Duke hands down.  As you say, he hasn't had a chance to learn to play against NFL defenses.  Zay has had two seasons, less injury time. And two training camps.  He is way ahead of Duke in that regard, so we should expect much more improvement from Duke than from Zay.  

 

So who is better right now?  Tough to say.  I'd bet Zay is the better route runner, just by virtue of his experience in the system.  Duke has better hands, no doubt.  Speed is about even, I think.  Neither is a burner, but I'd give Zay the edge.  Blocking, probably give the edge to Duke.  

 

And then, since they're competing in McDermott land, there is heart, character and competitiveness. Allen and Barkley both have commented, almost in awe, about Duke's "hunger."   Duke wants it, first thing in the morning and last thing at night.  He fights for the ball like it's a loaf of bread and he hasn't eaten in two weeks.  Nobody has ever said anything like that about Zay.  

 

So, sure, it would be nice to "give" your high pick three seasons, but he only gets those three seasons if he is good enough.  Unfortunately for Zay, in the off season the Bills acquired Beasley, Brown and Williams.  Zay will definitely get his three seasons, but there is a real chance that the third will be in a different uniform. 

Good post buy zay is definitely faster than Duke.

 

I know 40 time isn't everything but Zay ran a really solid 4 48 and plays with good speed on the field, everything else is just going to fast

 

Duke just seems like a see ball, get ball receiver which we haven't had in a while

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Good post buy zay is definitely faster than Duke.

 

I know 40 time isn't everything but Zay ran a really solid 4 48 and plays with good speed on the field, everything else is just going to fast

 

Duke just seems like a see ball, get ball receiver which we haven't had in a while

Thanks.  Duke apparently ran 4.7.  I never thought Zay had much speed, but he looked pretty speedy in last week's  game. 

 

Still , I don't think Zay has good deep speed, and if you're not a deep threat, then speed differences aren't too important. 

 

We will see in the next couple of days.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by Shaw66

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks.  Duke apparently ran 4.7.  I never thought Zay had much speed, but he looked pretty speedy in last week's  game. 

 

Still , I don't think Zay has good deep speed, and if you're not a deep threat, then speed differences aren't too important. 

 

We will see in the next couple of days.  

I agree I don't think Zay has deep threat NFL speed. He is more a a mid range threat but so can Duke with his ball skills

Edited August 28, 2019 by Buffalo716

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Brown, Beasley and Williams each has had significant accomplishments in their pro careers, which suggests some level of talent.  Jones has not.  Leading the 2018 Bills, 31st in the league in passing, with 600 receiving yards is not a significant accomplishment and does not suggest any level of talent.  

Since when is leading the CFL as a WR considered more of an accomplishment than starting for any NFL team, let alone catching 7 TDs with crap play from 4 different QBs. Ask any WR which he would rather be , I'm saying 100% are going to say they would've rather had Zay's year than Duke's year. Go look at the list for yearly CFL leaders in Receptions, Yards or TDs over the last 20+ years and you'll find no one who did anything in the NFL, in other words leading the CFL in receiving doesn't translate to being a starting WR in the NFL. The last guy who played in the CFL early in their careers and was good was Joe Horn in the mid 90s. Duke is a jump ball WR and really that's it. He's slow and can't get separation against 3rd & 4th string defenders, so from inside the 20s he's not much of a threat. Go back and look at the TD against Detroit, the guy was right with him, he just didn't have his head turned. If someone like Tre or Gillmore  were covering him does he still make the catch??? No, I don't think he does. Zay gets open all the time and with being the third WR it will be even better. I'll take the proven possession WR in this one. Just for the record I don't think Zay is great or anything, but he's a way better option than Duke unless you're in the Redzone.

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

He gets three seasons mostly by virtue of his position, not where he was drafted, but let’s face it, higher round picks get more rope. WR is a slower developing position than say, tackle. So that’s where I was going with that.

 

To say Zay hasn’t “earned” that third season, being the top WR on this team last season while improving from his first, is disingenuous. 

 

Zay was the top WR on the team last season is the reason he earned that 3rd season is disingenuous.

 

Our WR corps sucked last year.  Probably the worst WR corps in the NFL up until the 2nd half of the season when Foster really elevated things. 

 

[JoPar_v2]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Zay was the top WR on the team last season is the reason he earned that 3rd season is disingenuous.

 

Our WR corps sucked last year.  Probably the worst WR corps in the NFL up until the 2nd half of the season when Foster really elevated things. 

 

 

Sure buddy. And a big reason those receivers were bad was josh allen was bad. Same as the year before, when tyrod was bad. So i hope he is cut, just like Woods who wasn’t resigned, and we’ll see where he goes and what he does. 

 

Pointing out he was the top receiver, albeit on an overall bad unit, is not disingenuous. Unless you dont know what that word means....

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

No.  Zay is in zero danger of being cut because of his draft position, college pedigree, etc.  That's not my choice, I'm just being realistic.  If I had to choose between Duke Williams and Zay Jones, then Jones would be packing his bags.  Or Williams vs McKenzie.  Bye McKenzie, I read your bags are already packed.  Check my post history, I am Duke Williams fanboy from the get go.  For all the adversity Williams has been through, when he hits the field he looks like he belongs. 

College pedigree?

 

Zay Jones played at a crappy D1 college in East Carolina.  Duke Williams played in the SEC at Auburn.

 

And being a 2nd round draft pick going in his 3rd season guarantees absolutely nothings.

Edited August 28, 2019 by transplantbillsfan
correction on East Carolina

[Patrick Duffy]

22 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Since when is leading the CFL as a WR considered more of an accomplishment than starting for any NFL team, let alone catching 7 TDs with crap play from 4 different QBs. Ask any WR which he would rather be , I'm saying 100% are going to say they would've rather had Zay's year than Duke's year. Go look at the list for yearly CFL leaders in Receptions, Yards or TDs over the last 20+ years and you'll find no one who did anything in the NFL, in other words leading the CFL in receiving doesn't translate to being a starting WR in the NFL. The last guy who played in the CFL early in their careers and was good was Joe Horn in the mid 90s. Duke is a jump ball WR and really that's it. He's slow and can't get separation against 3rd & 4th string defenders, so from inside the 20s he's not much of a threat. Go back and look at the TD against Detroit, the guy was right with him, he just didn't have his head turned. If someone like Tre or Gillmore  were covering him does he still make the catch??? No, I don't think he does. Zay gets open all the time and with being the third WR it will be even better. I'll take the proven possession WR in this one. Just for the record I don't think Zay is great or anything, but he's a way better option than Duke unless you're in the Redzone.

 I  laughed at the bold. Also no one is saying Duke is more accomplished, he is however climbing the depth chart and out playing Zay. He has better hands which is obvious and he may or may not make the team over Zay.  IMO he absolutely should.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Patrick_Duffy