The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

He was also a starter year 2 with a new Co Ordinator.  Not that it's his fault, but Jones was the best Wr Buffalo had the last 2 years.  Let's not demonize the guys working in the NFL and basically the only wr with a pulse the last 2 season.  Before he was ready?  Sure was.  Does that mean hes a bust?  Nope.  This moment in Dukes career he was a JAG in the Canadian football league.  Zay has atleast has been a JAG in the NFL.  Does Zay need to step up?  Yes.  I have more faith in him doing it over Williams.

  

 

Nathan Peterman started games for us the last 2 years, doesn’t make him a good NFL starter.  

 

Being the “best” WR on a team with the worst receivers in the NFL the last 2 years doesn’t make you a good WR.  

 

Where do you get he was the best WR here last 2 years?  His rookie year was atrocious and he by far had the worst season of any Bills WR his rookie year, both on and off it.  And last year, he was not the best WR here, Foster was once he came back.  And most importantly, the two worst parts of this entire team last year were WR and OL.  

 

If I hand you 2 bags of dog poop from 2 different dogs, one will smell worse than the other.  That doesn’t mean either smells good.  

[Mat68]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm on the outside, so what do I know.  But Duke led the league in the CFL.  Zay's had two years to figure out the NFL and never has shown that he could be more than a decent number 2.   Compare Zay after two seasons to Robert Woods after two.   I think there's no comparison.   So, yes, Zay could improve, but I thyink the up side argument is that Duke has it and Zay probably doesn't.   Duke's already shown better hands than Zay.  I think the future is probably on Duke's side.   If you have to let one go, I'd bet on Duke's future.  

Zay's season last year was as good as any season Woods had with the Bill's.  Jones scored more TDs last year then Woods has in any season of his career.

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

From his rookie year to last season he doubled his catches, yards, and catch rate.  He tripled his TDs and increased his yards per target by 2 yards.  Why is he done improving as a wr?  Because, he hasn't lit up preseason?  Let's not forget what this team was for half the season.  They were a dumpster fire.  Having the same Qb for hopefully the whole season will help as well.  Nevertheless, Williams made a great catch over a backup db and has more potential.  Got it.

LOL...doubling...oye vey.  This argument makes me laugh...doubling an abysmal rookie year is not an accomplishment.  You must be really impressed with 600 yards for a 2 year starter with 31 games under his belt.  LOL.  

 

If you have $10 in your savings and you find $10 on the ground, you just doubled your net worth...still broke though.  

[Mat68]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Nathan Peterman started games for us the last 2 years, doesn’t make him a good NFL starter.  

 

Being the “best” WR on a team with the worst receivers in the NFL the last 2 years doesn’t make you a good WR.  

 

Where do you get he was the best WR here last 2 years?  His rookie year was atrocious and he by far had the worst season of any Bills WR his rookie year, both on and off it.  And last year, he was not the best WR here, Foster was once he came back.  And most importantly, the two worst parts of this entire team last year were WR and OL.  

 

If I hand you 2 bags of dog poop from 2 different dogs, one will smell worse than the other.  That doesn’t mean either smells good.  

I think too many fans are hyperbolic about Zay Jones.  Mainly, the Carolina play, and drop down the stretch vs Miami.  He got better last year.  Is he AB or OBJ no, not even close.  He is a NFL wr.  Robert Woods was Zay Jones in Buffalo.  Last year Jones actually put up not terrible numbers considering the circumstances.  Hes still only 24.  Why can't he play better with better peices around him?  

[Rocky Landing]

12 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

From his rookie year to last season he doubled his catches, yards, and catch rate.  He tripled his TDs and increased his yards per target by 2 yards.  Why is he done improving as a wr?  Because, he hasn't lit up preseason?  Let's not forget what this team was for half the season.  They were a dumpster fire.  Having the same Qb for hopefully the whole season will help as well.  Nevertheless, Williams made a great catch over a backup db and has more potential.  Got it.

If you're saying that that's all Williams has done to show his potential, then you're either being intellectually dishonest, or you're not paying attention.

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, Mat68 said:

I think too many fans are hyperbolic about Zay Jones.  Mainly, the Carolina play, and drop down the stretch vs Miami.  He got better last year.  Is he AB or OBJ no, not even close.  He is a NFL wr.  Robert Woods was Zay Jones in Buffalo.  Last year Jones actually put up not terrible numbers considering the circumstances.  Hes still only 24.  Why can't he play better with better peices around him?  

 That statement is just wrong and could not be more wrong.

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

LOL...doubling...oye vey.  This argument makes me laugh...doubling an abysmal rookie year is not an accomplishment.  You must be really impressed with 600 yards for a 2 year starter with 31 games under his belt.  LOL.  

 

If you have $10 in your savings and you find $10 on the ground, you just doubled your net worth...still broke though.  

Those were his stats every year in Buffalo.  Woods still has never caught more than 6 tds.  Jones is a better wr than McKenzie and Williams.  He should be on the roster.  I think in a better circumstance this year, with better players around he can improve.  I'm not saying anything other than that.  

4 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

 That statement is just wrong and could not be more wrong.

What part?  The catches? or the yards? Or Tds?

[Mat68]

13 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

If you're saying that that's all Williams has done to show his potential, then you're either being intellectually dishonest, or you're not paying attention.

His 2 slants?  The lob in the corner for his first Td?  Yes, I like his size.  I dont keep him over Brown, Beasley, Foster, Jones, Roberts.  Now the decision of how many wrs?  I think they go with that 5 with Te, Rb, or Oline picking up the extra spots. 

 Probably, bring Williams back week 2 so his contract is non guaranteed.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Mat68

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I think too many fans are hyperbolic about Zay Jones.  Mainly, the Carolina play, and drop down the stretch vs Miami.  He got better last year.  Is he AB or OBJ no, not even close.  He is a NFL wr.  Robert Woods was Zay Jones in Buffalo.  Last year Jones actually put up not terrible numbers considering the circumstances.  Hes still only 24.  Why can't he play better with better peices around him?  

 

No one says he cant get better, but you are downplaying how bad he was his rookier year (way more than just the Carolina drop, he literally was an utter liability the whole season) and you are also exaggerating how much better his 2nd year was.

 

My point is that its easy to say he "doubled" his numbers when his numbers were terrible...saying he doubled them makes it sound so much better than it was.  I mean, he had 600 yards in a season as a full time starter and a large chunk of that as WR1.  And he got outplayed over the final 7 games by an undrafted rookie WR who had been cut earlier in the year.  

 

Coming into this season...we all wanted to see ON FIELD improvement.  So far this preseason, he has done very little, dropped a perfect TD strike, didnt even have the awareness to catch the ball in the first quarter this week on what would have been a first down, and made one nice catch against backups.  This is a 3rd year WR in the same system with the same QB and he still isnt stepping up or making it known he should be one of the key players, despite the fact he's facing competition for his job.

 

I mean at what point do we stop applauding 600 yards likes its a big deal and stop making excuses for him?  Catch the ball Zay, make the play Zay, be consistent Zay...then we will start to believe.  Through 3 preseason games, he has only shown the same Zay he was last year.  

 

For me...someone wake me when he actually shows improvement on the field representative of a quality starting NFL WR.  

 

13 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Those were his stats every year in Buffalo.  Woods still has never caught more than 6 tds.  Jones is a better wr than McKenzie and Williams.  He should be on the roster.  I think in a better circumstance this year, with better players around he can improve.  I'm not saying anything other than that.  

What part?  The catches? or the yards? Or Tds?

 

I dont know who is a better WR...Zay, McKenzie, or Duke.  What I do know for sure, that its impossible to say Zay is better than those 2 without seeing those 2 play the kind of snaps Zay did and seeing how they would fair.  

 

I am not sold on McKenzie, but he's been more impressive than Zay this preseason.  Duke is a guy who hasn't played in a regular season game either, so cant say who is better between him or Zay...but I can say Duke had the more impressive preseason and did more with his chances and moved UP the depth chart while Zay seems to maybe be moving down it if the 3rd preseason game was any indication.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Rocky Landing]

8 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

His 2 slants?  The lob in the corner for his first Td?  Yes, I like his size.  I dont keep him over Brown, Beasley, Foster, Jones, Roberts.  Now the decision of how many wrs?  I think they go with that 5 with Te, Rb, or Oline picking up the extra spots. 

 Probably, bring Williams back week 2 so his contract is non guaranteed.

I'm still not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest, or haven't really been paying attention to Williams, but are a fan of Zay. I don't want to be the guy who accuses someone of "not understanding football," but if you are being honest, and you have been watching Williams' work in preseason, and you are aware of his career in the CFL, and you still don't understand Williams' value, then I have to wonder.

 

But, frankly, if you're still holding to the ridiculous statement that, "of all the receivers on the team Jones still has most potential," then I'm going to go with dishonest. 

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No one says he cant get better, but you are downplaying how bad he was his rookier year (way more than just the Carolina drop, he literally was an utter liability the whole season) and you are also over exaggerating how much better his 2nd year was.

 

My point is that its easy to say he "doubled" his numbers when his numbers were terrible...saying he doubled them makes it sound so much better than it was.  I mean, he had 600 yards in a season as a full time starter and a large chunk of that as WR1.  And he got outplayed over the final 7 games by an undrafted rookie WR who had been cut earlier in the year.  He struggled in 3 of his last 4 games.  He shows up on the Josh Allen drops video more than any WR on this team.  In one of his "best" games last year (first Miami game) he didn't hold on to a critical catch down the stretch before the Clay drop or we might have won that game and the Clay play never happens.  

 

He has failed to come up big too many times.  Year 2 wasn't a total disaster, but it also wasn't the kind of season to quiet the concerns either.  In 10 games last year he had less than 40 yards receiving.  If not for 2 big games against the woeful Dolphins (and they weren't that big, the 2 TD's in each made them seem "big" but he still had like 60 yards and 90 yards respectively) then his stat line on the entire season would be that of a player who should be cut.  

 

Coming into this season...we all wanted to see ON FIELD improvement.  So far this preseason, he has done very little, dropped a perfect TD strike, didnt even have the awareness to catch the ball in the first quarter this week on what would have been a first down, and made one nice catch against backups.  This is a 3rd year WR in the same system with the same QB and he still isnt stepping up or making it known he should be one of the key players, despite the fact he's facing competition for his job.

 

I mean at what point do we stop applauding 600 yards likes its a big deal and stop making excuses for him?  Catch the ball Zay, make the play Zay, be consistent Zay...then we will start to believe.  Through 3 preseason games, he has only shown the same Zay he was last year.  

 

For me...someone wake me when he actually shows improvement on the field representative of a quality starting NFL WR.  

No one last year would call the Bill's offense prolific.  Putting up average Wr numbers on a well below average passing offense tells me he is an NFL wr.  Only reading comment after comment of how Buffalo should cut Jones to keep Williams is what prompted my responses.  If Jones is cut.  Its a huge gamble to think Williams or McKenzie catch over 50 balls, over 600 yards and catch 7 tds.  I dont see that in either guy.  If they accomplished it, I think it would be viewed as a positive.  My point being that is the same stat line Jones needs to improve off of.  Its 1 step forward 2 steps back imo.

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Rocky Landing said:

I'm still not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest, or haven't really been paying attention to Williams, but are a fan of Zay. I don't want to be the guy who accuses someone of "not understanding football," but if you are being honest, and you have been watching Williams' work in preseason, and you are aware of his career in the CFL, and you still don't understand Williams' value, then I have to wonder.

 

But, frankly, if you're still holding to the ridiculous statement that, "of all the receivers on the team Jones still has most potential," then I'm going to go with dishonest. 

I'm not a personal fan of Zay Jones.  I'm a fan of the Bill's.  The majority of fans are cats, they just follow the lazer pointer, or shiny new object and miss the bigger picture. 

 

I'm well aware of Williams.  I watched every video I could find of him on YouTube when he was signed.  I also understand that the preseason for the most part is meaningless. 

 

Zay Jones vs Duke Williams.  Jones is quicker and faster.  Jones made it through 2 NFL seasons fairly healthy.  Jones is 2 years removed from be a 2nd Rd pick.  Williams went undrafted, cut unsigned.  He had a hell of a year last year but he isnt a better Wr than Jones imo. 

 

Robert Woods was very similar here.  Identical numbers.  Went to a good offense and boom he is actually pretty good.   Wr is a funky position.  It can take 3 or so years.  I am all for figuring out how to get duke Williams on the roster.  Do you cut Yeldon?  Idk probably not.  Cut down the number of Tes? Or Olineman?  If Morse can make it through the season sure but that seems iffy.  

[freddyjj]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Rogers and Lewis didn't have the preseason Duke is having.

Sorry to have infringed on your narrative.  

 

My post was meant as sarcasm.

 

Duke has a shot at final roster

[Saxum]

1 hour ago, Mat68 said:

His 2 slants?  The lob in the corner for his first Td?  Yes, I like his size.  I dont keep him over Brown, Beasley, Foster, Jones, Roberts.  Now the decision of how many wrs?  I think they go with that 5 with Te, Rb, or Oline picking up the extra spots. 

 Probably, bring Williams back week 2 so his contract is non guaranteed.

 

Williams is a UDFA - his contract is not guaranteed if he plays week 1. Robert Foster did not collect regular season money when he was cut and put on practice squad.  You are really reaching here.

[Dr.Sack]

Zay has hands of stone in the NFL. In college he had hands of the GOAT. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Dr.Sack

[transplantbillsfan]

On 8/26/2019 at 6:42 PM, JoPar_v2 said:

 

I mean, I am not sure how you can accurately quantify “mean” and “hungry” (maybe you have a system) but yes he may be both those things which I could care less about if a more talented, experienced receiver becomes available after cuts. But, as I said, I won’t mind at all if they keep Duke. I like what i’ve seen in 2 practice games. Against backups. 

 

People here that went to camp said he didn’t do squat in practice. He’s got character issues. Yet you and others are way quick to shrug that off but we got a collection of pitchforks for zay jones. 

 

Im just saying, it’s sounds like you’re just picking your favorites and not really having much to back that up.

[transplantbillsfan]

What the hell is up with the Zay lovin poster?

 

Zay has been a disappointment thus far for what he was advertised as.

 

And to remind everyone, he was advertised as sure-handed. He was one of the most sure handed college WRs, if not the most, in his draft class.

 

In the NFL, he's been the opposite.

 

I think he makes the team. But I don't think he deserves to make the team over Duke... or McKenzie, for that matter.

[Patrick Duffy]

4 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Those were his stats every year in Buffalo.  Woods still has never caught more than 6 tds.  Jones is a better wr than McKenzie and Williams.  He should be on the roster.  I think in a better circumstance this year, with better players around he can improve.  I'm not saying anything other than that.  

What part?  The catches? or the yards? Or Tds?

Everything, Woods was/is better in every dept. Route running, he's definitely a better blocker, and way better hands. I'd take Woods over Zay any day of the week. It's not even close. To say Robert Woods is the same as Zay couldn't be more wrong. The difference is night and day.

3 hours ago, Mat68 said:

I'm not a personal fan of Zay Jones.  I'm a fan of the Bill's.  The majority of fans are cats, they just follow the lazer pointer, or shiny new object and miss the bigger picture. 

 

I'm well aware of Williams.  I watched every video I could find of him on YouTube when he was signed.  I also understand that the preseason for the most part is meaningless. 

 

Zay Jones vs Duke Williams.  Jones is quicker and faster.  Jones made it through 2 NFL seasons fairly healthy.  Jones is 2 years removed from be a 2nd Rd pick.  Williams went undrafted, cut unsigned.  He had a hell of a year last year but he isnt a better Wr than Jones imo. 

 

Robert Woods was very similar here.  Identical numbers.  Went to a good offense and boom he is actually pretty good.   Wr is a funky position.  It can take 3 or so years.  I am all for figuring out how to get duke Williams on the roster.  Do you cut Yeldon?  Idk probably not.  Cut down the number of Tes? Or Olineman?  If Morse can make it through the season sure but that seems iffy.  

lol oh I see, a stat guy.

[JoPar_v2]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

What the hell is up with the Zay lovin poster?

 

Zay has been a disappointment thus far for what he was advertised as.

 

And to remind everyone, he was advertised as sure-handed. He was one of the most sure handed college WRs, if not the most, in his draft class.

 

In the NFL, he's been the opposite.

 

I think he makes the team. But I don't think he deserves to make the team over Duke... or McKenzie, for that matter.

 

It’s very simple:

1. I think WR is tough to transition from college to the NFL. High picks should get 3 seasons.

2. Jones improved year 1 to year 2 (even though year 1 was pretty abysmal, the numbers went way up);

3. The number of drops are exaggerated by many here, which makes me want to pull my hair out;

4. Duke is intriguing, but I have no idea how he’s going to perform against starting-level NFL secondaries yet. No one does. At least with Jones there’s 2 seasons of tape.

 

All that said if Jones does stay and doesn’t significantly improve year 3, he should probably go. And maybe he will end up like Woods on another team with a functional passing offense and we’ll all have a laugh.

33 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Everything, Woods was/is better in every dept. Route running, he's definitely a better blocker, and way better hands. I'd take Woods over Zay any day of the week. It's not even close. To say Robert Woods is the same as Zay couldn't be more wrong. The difference is night and day.

lol oh I see, a stat guy.

 

Yes yes dismiss the numbers when they don’t support your narrative. 

[Patrick Duffy]

47 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

It’s very simple:

1. I think WR is tough to transition from college to the NFL. High picks should get 3 seasons.

2. Jones improved year 1 to year 2 (even though year 1 was pretty abysmal, the numbers went way up);

3. The number of drops are exaggerated by many here, which makes me want to pull my hair out;

4. Duke is intriguing, but I have no idea how he’s going to perform against starting-level NFL secondaries yet. No one does. At least with Jones there’s 2 seasons of tape.

 

All that said if Jones does stay and doesn’t significantly improve year 3, he should probably go. And maybe he will end up like Woods on another team with a functional passing offense and we’ll all have a laugh.

 

Yes yes dismiss the numbers when they don’t support your narrative. 

 

 

Yes, yes. I always do when they obviously don't tell the whole story. Maybe you should look at more than just stats sometimes, help you understand the game more. Knowledge is power.