The Bills need to keep Duke Williams

[Rocky Landing]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Look around the NFL and find the guys who do that but lack breakaway speed and contribute little between the 20s.  The Bills had Justin Hunter catch 4 touchdowns in that role a couple of years ago and still let him walk. It is just the league now. 15 years ago Duke Williams 100% makes an NFL roster. The game continues to evolve. I say for about the 5th time I am surprised he cleared waivers but he did. His off field issues were 4 years and he has been a model citizen in his run with the Bills. The reason he ended up on the PS is skill set. 

What strikes me the most about Duke is his catch radius-- it's enormous. He can stretch himself out, in stride, and come down with the ball. That is something that we have seen on tape, and it doesn't really matter that the tape comes from the CFL, or TC, because even without a defender anywhere near, some of these are catches that most of the current Bills WRs cannot make. He can also fight the ball out of a defender's hands. I have seen Smoke Brown do that, too. He is also an exceptional blocker. I have a hard time believing those things aren't still valued in the NFL.

 

And, the Justin Hunter comparison is especially off the mark, IMO. Hunter didn't have anywhere near the athleticism Duke has. Hunter could highpoint a ball, sure. But, I never saw him do it in full stride, stretching himself out the way Duke does consistently. And I never saw Hunter fight for a ball in coverage the way Duke does. How can these things not be valuable in the current NFL?

[transplantbillsfan]

20 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

You’re embarrassing yourself at this point. Can we just put Duke aside for a while? There’s a non-zero chance he’s going to get called up at some point this season anyways; he’ll get to likely play. 

 

I know you’re still losing your ***** because Zay made the roster and CFL man didn’t, but pulling out Hines Ward comparisons and whatnot is beyond silly.

 

I'm good. 

 

I pretty much put the Duke issue aside once we brought him to the Practice Squad.

 

As the OP said, I just wanted him to remain a Bill.

 

What seems to have kept the thread alive is Duke's continued strong showings in practice this week along with Allen's comments in his presser.

 

I hope Zay lights it up this year. I really do.

 

But no matter what he does moving forward, his first 2 years were massively disappointing and certainly didn't warrant the automatic roster spot you seem to believe he earned.

[transplantbillsfan]

20 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

We're talking about 32 GM's deciding the guy wasn't roster worthy. It's not a league decision. Duke isn't blacklisted or anything outlandish like that. He's just not that good. Big, plodding receiver unable to create separation. There just aren't enough situations that warrant this type of player. You could use a TE for anything you'd get from Duke. 

 

GM's would overlook his college incident in 1 SECOND if they thought he was the player many here seem to believe him to be. Nice story. Below average player. 

 

Oh holy hell.

 

I guess I would have kept this thread alive if I read a stupid post like this.

 

You know nothing about what type of player he is in the NFL because he hasn't played a single regular season snap yet. NFL teams and GMs are often incredibly stupid, let's be honest.

 

I'm not going to point out examples because if you aren't smart enough to find all this historically great NFL players passed over by all 32 teams multiple times in drafts or not picked up on waivers or... well then you need help no one here can provide.

 

Duke likely gets his chance... I think you were right about that in your previous post. And if he keeps practicing the way he did this week and the way he played in the preseason, then it's probably sooner rather than later.

 

And then we see if he's the below average player you claim he is.

13 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

If he had that kind of obvious talent, he'd be on the 53. Also he has below average speed for a WR, if you compare his time vs what WRs ran this year only 1 WR ran a slower time. Between 2005-2012 the average WR 40 yard time was 4.48. I couldn't find anything more up to date than that, but that was 7-14 years ago and the NFL only gets faster every year.

 

Yeah, but he catches EVERYTHING, including contested balls with guys draped on him.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The reality though Alpha is that he passed through waivers. I was slightly surprised he did. But it proves to me the NFL just does not value his skill set the same way it did 15 years ago. 

 

That doesn't mean his skill set isn't valuable, though.

[Rocky Landing]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brian Daboll disagrees with you. He wants speed. 

 

But can we please dispense with the narrative that Duke is "slow?" Kelvin Benjimin was slow (at least, while he was wearing a Bills uni). Duke is of average speed. If average speed were a deal-breaker, then average wouldn't exist. 

[JoPar_v2]

Duke will get his shot soon most likely. Roberts is already missing time. Foster has had a foot/toe issue. Dollars to donuts McKenzie will get nicked up at some point. 

 

Once he gets promoted we’ll all see how he does, and I’m sure we’ll ALL be fair and balanced when evaluating his performance.

[LSHMEAB]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Oh holy hell.

 

I guess I would have kept this thread alive if I read a stupid post like this.

 

You know nothing about what type of player he is in the NFL because he hasn't played a single regular season snap yet. NFL teams and GMs are often incredibly stupid, let's be honest.

 

I'm not going to point out examples because if you aren't smart enough to find all this historically great NFL players passed over by all 32 teams multiple times in drafts or not picked up on waivers or... well then you need help no one here can provide.

I'd love to hear some examples of a 26 plus year old skill position player who's already been cut by one team, got a shot in the preseason with another team, cleared waivers, and placed on the practice squad by the team that evaluated him every day. The supposition is that you not only know more than McDermott and Beane, but also all the GM's in the league. There are examples of guys who never got a shot and shined when they finally did. Very few examples of players being any good under these circumstances. Fred Ex is the only player in Bills history that comes to mind, but Buffalo was his first shot. 

[transplantbillsfan]

So annoying these "well he was passed up" and "skill sets" arguments:

 

Wes Welker

Jason Peters

Priest Holmes

James Harrison

Rod Smith

Tony Romo

Kurt Warner

John Randle

Warren Moon

 

All undrafted.

 

All viewed by 32 NFL teams to be not worthy.

 

All went onto Pro Bowl or NFL HOF careers.

 

Again, NFL teams and GMs are often stupid.

Edited September 7, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brian Daboll disagrees with you. He wants speed. 

 

I dunno, if Brian Daboll is the creative genius we all hope he is, I think he might find a way to utilize Duke in the offense.

 

After all, his excitement appears to be escalating...

 

and does anyone notice who throws Duke the ball here?

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

25 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'd love to hear some examples of a 26 plus year old skill position player who's already been cut by one team, got a shot in the preseason with another team, cleared waivers, and placed on the practice squad by the team that evaluated him every day. 

 

Kurt Warner 

[LSHMEAB]

17 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Kurt Warner 

Not a skill position player, but an extremely predictable name to throw out there.

 

Bottom line is that Duke will likely get a shot. Odds are long that he'll ever be a major contributor, but you're certainly entitled to that opinion. His play, when given his shot which I fully expect, will speak for itself.

[JoPar_v2]

4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Not a skill position player, but an extremely predictable name to throw out there.

 

Bottom line is that Duke will likely get a shot. Odds are long that he'll ever be a major contributor, but you're certainly entitled to that opinion. His play, when given his shot which I fully expect, will speak for itself.

 

Absolutely. If he gets called up and lights it up against actual, 1st team defenses I’ll be the first to bump this thread and admit I was wrong about the guy. If he contributes to wins he’s all good in my book. 

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, JoPar_v2 said:

 

Absolutely. If he gets called up and lights it up against actual, 1st team defenses I’ll be the first to bump this thread and admit I was wrong about the guy. If he contributes to wins he’s all good in my book. 

For sure. I'm not sure why there's so much attention being focused on a PS WR with the season opener less than 48 hours away, but it is what it is. I've stated my opinion. If he gets his shot and shines, that would be awesome. Don't think it's likely, but it would be a welcome surprise.  

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Not a skill position player, but an extremely predictable name to throw out there.

 

Bottom line is that Duke will likely get a shot. Odds are long that he'll ever be a major contributor, but you're certainly entitled to that opinion. His play, when given his shot which I fully expect, will speak for itself.

 

Yes, it will.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

But can we please dispense with the narrative that Duke is "slow?" Kelvin Benjimin was slow (at least, while he was wearing a Bills uni). Duke is of average speed. If average speed were a deal-breaker, then average wouldn't exist. 

 

He is slow comparative to NFL wide receivers. That is just a matter of fact. 

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is slow comparative to NFL wide receivers. That is just a matter of fact. 

Is thins a judgement you are making based on combine numbers, or something else?

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

What strikes me the most about Duke is his catch radius-- it's enormous. He can stretch himself out, in stride, and come down with the ball. That is something that we have seen on tape, and it doesn't really matter that the tape comes from the CFL, or TC, because even without a defender anywhere near, some of these are catches that most of the current Bills WRs cannot make. He can also fight the ball out of a defender's hands. I have seen Smoke Brown do that, too. He is also an exceptional blocker. I have a hard time believing those things aren't still valued in the NFL.

 

And, the Justin Hunter comparison is especially off the mark, IMO. Hunter didn't have anywhere near the athleticism Duke has. Hunter could highpoint a ball, sure. But, I never saw him do it in full stride, stretching himself out the way Duke does consistently. And I never saw Hunter fight for a ball in coverage the way Duke does. How can these things not be valuable in the current NFL?

 

Go back and watch a couple of Hunter's Bills touchdowns. He made some outstanding laid out catches. 

 

Here is what I don't buy..... I don't buy that 32 NFL teams have decided not to put a guy who displayed all the qualities you talk about above in pre-season and was a star receiver in the CFL on their rosters because of an incident that happened when he was at college in 2015. Since that time in both Canada and with the Bills during the spring Williams has kept his head down, kept his nose clean, got himself into excellent shape and done everything right. NFL teams have plenty of guys with much more recent misdemeanors on their teams if they think they can help them. I just don't buy that a mistake he made 4 years ago is the reason teams passed on him. 

 

So then you have to look at the guys who did get claimed off waivers and put on a team's 53 after cut downs - not only Ray Ray McCloud - but let's consider Diontae Spencer who had a similar career route to Williams: went to an NFL practice squad, didn't make it stick, went to the CFL, balled out, got a shot in camp with a team (the Steelers) but got cut and he WAS claimed by the Broncos. He is also only 5'7 but runs a 4.34. There used to be a theory in the NFL that if you were going to miss then miss on a big guy. I think the way the game has gone - to much more of a college style spread out look - now if you are going to miss you miss on speed.

 

15 years ago Duke Williams would 100% have made a roster. But the way NFL offense is now he is vulnerable to smaller, quicker, better change of direction guys. That to me can be the only logical reason that a guy who had Duke's pre-season ends up unclaimed and back here on our practice squad. I suspect before the season ends he gets his shot - either here or on another squad - but his offensive value is limited by his skillset. I just don't think that is deniable given the evidence we have in front of us. 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Is thins a judgement you are making based on combine numbers, or something else?

 

On watching him play on the field. 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Go back and watch a couple of Hunter's Bills touchdowns. He made some outstanding laid out catches. 

 

Here is what I don't buy..... I don't buy that 32 NFL teams have decided not to put a guy who displayed all the qualities you talk about above in pre-season and was a star receiver in the CFL on their rosters because of an incident that happened when he was at college in 2015. Since that time in both Canada and with the Bills during the spring Williams has kept his head down, kept his nose clean, got himself into excellent shape and done everything right. NFL teams have plenty of guys with much more recent misdemeanors on their teams if they think they can help them. I just don't buy that a mistake he made 4 years ago is the reason teams passed on him. 

 

So then you have to look at the guys who did get claimed off waivers and put on a team's 53 after cut downs - not only Ray Ray McCloud - but let's consider Diontae Spencer who had a similar career route to Williams: went to an NFL practice squad, didn't make it stick, went to the CFL, balled out, got a shot in camp with a team (the Steelers) but got cut and he WAS claimed by the Broncos. He is also only 5'7 but runs a 4.34. There used to be a theory in the NFL that if you were going to miss then miss on a big guy. I think the way the game has gone - to much more of a college style spread out look - now if you are going to miss you miss on speed.

 

15 years ago Duke Williams would 100% have made a roster. But the way NFL offense is now he is vulnerable to smaller, quicker, better change of direction guys. That to me can be the only logical reason that a guy who had Duke's pre-season ends up unclaimed and back here on our practice squad. I suspect before the season ends he gets his shot - either here or on another squad - but his offensive value is limited by his skillset. I just don't think that is deniable given the evidence we have in front of us. 

 

 

 

 

On watching him play on the field. 

 

Again, you may not "buy it" but it certainly is a possibility. So we really don't know for sure.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Go back and watch a couple of Hunter's Bills touchdowns. He made some outstanding laid out catches. 

 

Here is what I don't buy..... I don't buy that 32 NFL teams have decided not to put a guy who displayed all the qualities you talk about above in pre-season and was a star receiver in the CFL on their rosters because of an incident that happened when he was at college in 2015. Since that time in both Canada and with the Bills during the spring Williams has kept his head down, kept his nose clean, got himself into excellent shape and done everything right. NFL teams have plenty of guys with much more recent misdemeanors on their teams if they think they can help them. I just don't buy that a mistake he made 4 years ago is the reason teams passed on him. 

 

So then you have to look at the guys who did get claimed off waivers and put on a team's 53 after cut downs - not only Ray Ray McCloud - but let's consider Diontae Spencer who had a similar career route to Williams: went to an NFL practice squad, didn't make it stick, went to the CFL, balled out, got a shot in camp with a team (the Steelers) but got cut and he WAS claimed by the Broncos. He is also only 5'7 but runs a 4.34. There used to be a theory in the NFL that if you were going to miss then miss on a big guy. I think the way the game has gone - to much more of a college style spread out look - now if you are going to miss you miss on speed.

 

15 years ago Duke Williams would 100% have made a roster. But the way NFL offense is now he is vulnerable to smaller, quicker, better change of direction guys. That to me can be the only logical reason that a guy who had Duke's pre-season ends up unclaimed and back here on our practice squad. I suspect before the season ends he gets his shot - either here or on another squad - but his offensive value is limited by his skillset. I just don't think that is deniable given the evidence we have in front of us. 

 

 

 

 

On watching him play on the field. 

This is excellent. Thanks.  I will say, however, that Spencer is a different case.  Spencer appears to be on the Broncos because they wanted a punt returner, and that is what he was known for in Canada.  It's much easier to watch film of a guy and know if he is going to be able to return kicks than to know he can play wideout.  So claiming Spencer on waivers, just like the Bills claiming McKenzie last year, is easier to do. 

 

And that, in a different, sense, is war I was saying about Duke.   The things a pure wideout has to show to make the team are p retry complicated, and if you don't have something else going for you, like kick returning, you have more trouble making the team.  

 

Foster had speed last season and couldn't hold a roster spot.

 

Still, I think yours is a very good explanation of why Duke hasn't made it.  

[GunnerBill]

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is excellent. Thanks.  I will say, however, that Spencer is a different case.  Spencer appears to be on the Broncos because they wanted a punt returner, and that is what he was known for in Canada.  It's much easier to watch film of a guy and know if he is going to be able to return kicks than to know he can play wideout.  So claiming Spencer on waivers, just like the Bills claiming McKenzie last year, is easier to do. 

 

And that, in a different, sense, is war I was saying about Duke.   The things a pure wideout has to show to make the team are p retry complicated, and if you don't have something else going for you, like kick returning, you have more trouble making the team.  

 

Foster had speed last season and couldn't hold a roster spot.

 

Still, I think yours is a very good explanation of why Duke hasn't made it.  

 

Yea - it is always the full package as I have said and Spencer / McKenzie and the like all have duel value. In the 37 claimed players off waivers this year there were 6 receivers. 5 of them known as speed guys.