Is this best secondary the Bills have ever had?

[SoTier]

In 1992, the Bills had Kirby Jackson, Nate Odomes who made the Pro Bowl in 1992, Henry Jones, an All Pro SS in 1992, and Mark Kelso.  That was probably the best secondary the Bills had since the merger.   Jackson's suffered a career ending injury after leaving Buffalo for Seattle, so he only played 5 years.

 

I don't care who the Bills other safety was in 2003 but Winfield, Clements, and Milloy were all Pro Bowlers either for the Bills or for other teams, so I'd rate them second best. 

• Winfield's last season with the Bills was 2003.  He went on to start for 9 more seasons with Minnesota and was a three time Pro Bowler.
• Clements last season with the Bills was 2006.  He went on to start 4 more seasons for San Francisco and 1 more for Cincinatti.
• Milloy played for the Bills for 3 seasons, 2003-2005.  He then went on to start for 3 seasons in Atlanta and played 2 more seasons in Seattle, starting 15 games in 2010, so he was hardly "washed up" in 2003.

Since none of the current Bills DBs has been a Pro Bowler or been named a top 100 player, it's hard to make the case that they are "the best secondary ever".  They play well in McDermott's scheme but except for White, they don't seem to be outstanding individuals.  Other Bills squads have had 1 outstanding individual among pretty average players that played well as a unit.

28 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Making the pro bowl doesn’t mean a dam thing.  First team all pro is different. 

 

I never saw the 65 team play as I was born in 74 so I can’t compare the two. What I do know it, this secondary is elite level

 

Y'know for a team that supposedly has this "elite level" secondary and an "elite" defense, the Bills sure couldn't stop teams from scoring on them in the Red Zone in 2018.  Maybe that's why the rest of the NFL and media ignore them when it comes to handing out honors.

[freddyjj]

9 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Wow, there are like 75 names on there.  Makes the argument all 4 made the ProBowl a bit watered down.  

So the AFL had an All-Star game and the fact that there were only 8 teams in that league meant it was easier to make an AllStar team.

 

21 picks by DBs alone in 14 games is impressive by any standard.  Passing game was more downfield then with lower completion percentages and more pickoffs. 

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Jackson's suffered a career ending injury after leaving Buffalo for Seattle, so he only played 5 years.

Good post but believe it was Odomes who went to SEA and never played again. 

[MJS]

34 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Making the pro bowl doesn’t mean a dam thing.  First team all pro is different. 

 

I never saw the 65 team play as I was born in 74 so I can’t compare the two. What I do know it, this secondary is elite level

Why do people think this? Almost always the guys who make the pro bowl had great years and deserve it. Pro bowl players are usually the best players in the league. Now if you want to start talking about pro bowl alternates I'll entertain that, but people saying pro bowls don't mean anything are just plain wrong.

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1965_AFL/probowl.htm

 

got me interested in this team.  Is this link wrong?  Looks like it says the Bills has 36 players make the pro bowl in 1965.  Lol

 

In 1965 only, the deal was that the AFL Champions were to play the all-stars from the rest of the 7 AFL teams during the AFL All-Star Game. This technicality aside, I still would argue that the mid-60's Buffalo DB's were the best in franchise history.

 

I like the OP's thoughts here, however. This current group absolutely has the chance to be the best ever in franchise history. White is ready to emerge as a first-team all-pro. Hyde is already borderline. Poyer is already Pro Bowl caliber. I need to see a lot more from Wallace, but he already has shown glimpses of being Pro Bowl caliber. And the other 6-7 guys provide incredible depth, most notably Taron Johnson as the nickel.

Edited August 18, 2019 by MichaelAbdallah

[oldmanfan]

41 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

Some perspective.  The 1965 Buffalo Bills entire starting 4 secondary - Booker Edgerson and Butch Byrd CBs and George Saimes and Hagood Clark made the Pro Bowl and Saimes and Byrd were First Team All Pro.  

 

None of the current Bills secondary have ever made the Pro Bowl or been All Pro.  So the easy answer is they are not the best Bills secondary ever...not yet anyways. 

Bingo.  

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, SoTier said:

In 1992, the Bills had Kirby Jackson, Nate Odomes who made the Pro Bowl in 1992, Henry Jones, an All Pro SS in 1992, and Mark Kelso.  That was probably the best secondary the Bills had since the merger.   Jackson's suffered a career ending injury after leaving Buffalo for Seattle, so he only played 5 years.

 

I don't care who the Bills other safety was in 2003 but Winfield, Clements, and Milloy were all Pro Bowlers either for the Bills or for other teams, so I'd rate them second best. 

• Winfield's last season with the Bills was 2003.  He went on to start for 9 more seasons with Minnesota and was a three time Pro Bowler.
• Clements last season with the Bills was 2006.  He went on to start 4 more seasons for San Francisco and 1 more for Cincinatti.
• Milloy played for the Bills for 3 seasons, 2003-2005.  He then went on to start for 3 seasons in Atlanta and played 2 more seasons in Seattle, starting 15 games in 2010, so he was hardly "washed up" in 2003.

Since none of the current Bills DBs has been a Pro Bowler or been named a top 100 player, it's hard to make the case that they are "the best secondary ever".  They play well in McDermott's scheme but except for White, they don't seem to be outstanding individuals.  Other Bills squads have had 1 outstanding individual among pretty average players that played well as a unit.

 

Y'know for a team that supposedly has this "elite level" secondary and an "elite" defense, the Bills sure couldn't stop teams from scoring on them in the Red Zone in 2018.  Maybe that's why the rest of the NFL and media ignore them when it comes to handing out honors.

I said our secondary is elite. No mention of the defense. Imo, our defense is another pass rushing threat away.  I like Murphy, I just don’t have confidence in his availability. 

 

I’ve long said we weren’t a top 5 D last season, regardless of our 2Nd ranked yards against

[K-9]

Robert James is the best CB we’ve ever had. He was a shut down corner before the phrase was invented. 

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Wow, there are like 75 names on there.  Makes the argument all 4 made the ProBowl a bit watered down.  

Yeah, I have no idea how that’s even possible. 36 bills made the pro bowl.  

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

Why do people think this? Almost always the guys who make the pro bowl had great years and deserve it. Pro bowl players are usually the best players in the league. Now if you want to start talking about pro bowl alternates I'll entertain that, but people saying pro bowls don't mean anything are just plain wrong.

 

I said making the pro bowl doesn’t mean jack. I didn’t say making the pro bowl 1st team doesn’t mean jack.

 

there are plenty of players that had pro bowl seasons that aren’t voted in 1st team or as an alternate. Doesn’t mean they aren’t pro bowl level players.  They just haven’t been named due to w/e reason.

[Mike in Horseheads]

Lets beat the Jets in game 1 and go from there

[Magox]

Certainly shaping up to be the best secondary the Bills have had in my lifetime.  If they stay healthy, I dont see why they wont be.  We have the right system, players and coaches to make that happen 

[chris heff]

26 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Robert James is the best CB we’ve ever had. He was a shut down corner before the phrase was invented. 

Robert James was very good, as was Butch Byrd, but Byrd’s supporting cast was much better. George Saimes was a great player.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, freddyjj said:

 Good post but believe it was Odomes who went to SEA and never played again. 

 

That may have happened to Odomes, too, but according to Pro Football Reference, Jackson's last official NFL season was 1992.  He only played 5 years.  I got the info that he was injured while with Seattle but before he played a game from Wikipedia.

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Some perspective.  The 1965 Buffalo Bills entire starting 4 secondary - Booker Edgerson and Butch Byrd CBs and George Saimes and Hagood Clark made the Pro Bowl and Saimes and Byrd were First Team All Pro.  

 

None of the current Bills secondary have ever made the Pro Bowl or been All Pro.  So the easy answer is they are not the best Bills secondary ever...not yet anyways. 

 

I wish I still had all of their football cards (multiple years).

Good Times then and let's hope good times this year.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, chris heff said:

Robert James was very good, as was Butch Byrd, but Byrd’s supporting cast was much better. George Saimes was a great player.

I agree with all of that. 

 

And I’ll reiterate that Robert James was the best CB to ever lace them up for the Bills. He shut out the best receivers in the game; many of them now in the HOF. Pro Bowl nods his last three seasons, including the last two as 1st team All Pro. And he was just in his prime, too. If not for the injury that ended his career at 28, he would have been a first ballot HOFer. He was that good. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, SoTier said:

In 1992, the Bills had Kirby Jackson, Nate Odomes who made the Pro Bowl in 1992, Henry Jones, an All Pro SS in 1992, and Mark Kelso.  That was probably the best secondary the Bills had since the merger.   Jackson's suffered a career ending injury after leaving Buffalo for Seattle, so he only played 5 years.

 

I don't care who the Bills other safety was in 2003 but Winfield, Clements, and Milloy were all Pro Bowlers either for the Bills or for other teams, so I'd rate them second best. 

• Winfield's last season with the Bills was 2003.  He went on to start for 9 more seasons with Minnesota and was a three time Pro Bowler.
• Clements last season with the Bills was 2006.  He went on to start 4 more seasons for San Francisco and 1 more for Cincinatti.
• Milloy played for the Bills for 3 seasons, 2003-2005.  He then went on to start for 3 seasons in Atlanta and played 2 more seasons in Seattle, starting 15 games in 2010, so he was hardly "washed up" in 2003.

Since none of the current Bills DBs has been a Pro Bowler or been named a top 100 player, it's hard to make the case that they are "the best secondary ever".  They play well in McDermott's scheme but except for White, they don't seem to be outstanding individuals.  Other Bills squads have had 1 outstanding individual among pretty average players that played well as a unit.

 

Y'know for a team that supposedly has this "elite level" secondary and an "elite" defense, the Bills sure couldn't stop teams from scoring on them in the Red Zone in 2018.  Maybe that's why the rest of the NFL and media ignore them when it comes to handing out honors.

White is already a much better CN than Odomes was.  Jones was very good but not elite despite the All-Pro designation.  He may have been better than Poyer and Milloy as a SS, but Hyde is leagues better than Kelso ever was.  So I would put present group ahead of your #1.

Milloy did have longevity but he was not a dominant player after he left New England.  19 of this career 25 INTs were with the Patriots during 6 seasons.  He only had 6 more picks in 8 seasons with three teams.  To be honest I thought he retired after he left Buffalo, that is how little impact he had the rest of his career.  He was solid his first year in Buffalo but not spectacular.  

The combination of Winfield and Clements is probably the greatest CB duo Buffalo but again I would take this group of safeties over Milloy and Person Prioleau.  

While White does not have the ProBowl appearances yet, he has already showed elite skill level on the field.  

So sad they did not keep Winfield and Pat Williams.  The mid 2000's may have been a very different era had they just kept those two guys.  

[klos63]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Making the pro bowl doesn’t mean a dam thing.  First team all pro is different. 

 

I never saw the 65 team play as I was born in 74 so I can’t compare the two. What I do know it, this secondary is elite level

Often the Pro Bowl doesn't mean much, but if the entire secondary of one team makes it, and that team is a champion, they're probably pretty good.

58 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I agree with all of that. 

 

And I’ll reiterate that Robert James was the best CB to ever lace them up for the Bills. He shut out the best receivers in the game; many of them now in the HOF. Pro Bowl nods his last three seasons, including the last two as 1st team All Pro. And he was just in his prime, too. If not for the injury that ended his career at 28, he would have been a first ballot HOFer. He was that good. 

To this day, still bothers me about his injury and what could have been.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Thanks for the info.  I've honesty never heard of Saimes.  I will look him up.  

 

Saimes was great.

 

I do think that the combination of talent and coaching in the current back 4 is special.  So was the 65 group.

[Bing Bong]

Probably. One more CB and I'd definitely crown them. Still wish we kept Gilmore or Darby around to make it the next Legion of Boom. You get 2 CB1s lined up every down with pro bowl safeties around them and you have a competitive advantage only teams like Seattle back in the day, Denver's No Fly Zone with Aqib Talib and Chris Harris Jr, Pats with Gilmore / Browner / Revis / Butler / Chung / Mcourtney / Logan.. I think it's a smart way to build a great team.

 

But yeah they're great. Poyer and Hyde have been my favorite signings from this regime. The Safety position went from hopeless to one of the NFL best overnight.

Edited August 19, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Charles Romes]

Mario Clark and that other guy

[That's No Moon]

Mario Clark, Charlie Romes, Jeff Nixon, Steve Freeman and Rod Kush were pretty good....