BillsFanNC Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, RaoulDuke79 said: I'm no doctor or nutritionist, but I think this mostly applies to processed meats and processed foods in general. Processed meats are a class I carcinogen, so yes they are worse for you than regular meat. But the saturated / trans fat and cholesterol in regular meat isnt doing anyone's health favors either.
RaoulDuke79 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Processed meats are a class I carcinogen, so yes they are worse for you than regular meat. But the saturated / trans fat and cholesterol in regular meat isnt doing anyone's health favors either. All things in moderation as the saying goes. I'll take my chances with a few steaks over that abomination of a burger. 1
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said: All things in moderation as the saying goes. I'll take my chances with a few steaks over that abomination of a burger. I'm not advocating consuming that plant based junk food more often than once in a blue moon either. 2
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 Quote I'll deny it. Show me the peer-reviewed study that causally links an animal-based diet (no sugar, seed oils, other processed garbage) with increased mortality. Unfortunately there aren't many examples of randomized controlled trials in human nutrition studies, but there are examples of long term prospective cohort studies like this one from Harvard: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1134845 Quote Conclusions Red meat consumption is associated with an increased risk of total, CVD, and cancer mortality. Substitution of other healthy protein sources for red meat is associated with a lower mortality risk. Interventional studies can be powerful, taking already sick patients and splitting them into control and experimental groups. This one published in the late 90's compared heart disease patients randomized and put on either a plant based diet or a standard care diet. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274 Amazingly they observed not only a slowing of the progression of heart disease in the intervention group as they hoped, but also a reversal of disease in some patients. Reversal of heart disease. Drugs and surgery don't reverse heart disease, they simply slow the progression by treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. I came across this paper maybe a month into my deep dive into the literature and it ultimately led to me finding the video and website linked below. It turns out there was an MD out there way ahead of me in looking at evidence based nutrition. He talks about the heart disease intervention trial linked above at the beginning of the video, and the question he poses is what I often ask people when they question my change in diet: Can you show me a diet that has been proven to reverse heart disease? Until that day comes I'm going to stick with plant based as my default. If you're an american over say the age 15 and have been eating an average american diet, then the likely question isn't whether or not you have atherosclerosis, but rather how far has the disease progressed. Here's an interventional trial with diabetics. Experimental group ate a plant based diet, the control group ate the American Diabetes Association diet. The plant based diet outperformed the standard of care diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/pdf/ajcn8951588S.pdf Quote Show me the ancestors who subsisted on a plant-based diet. i'll do that one better. I can show you populations today that subsist on a plant based diet that are devoid of the heart disease and diabetes epidemics that plague those of us who consume the western diet. Check out the "Blue Zones", Okinawa being one of them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234038 Quote And I'll show you that if 2.4 million years of human evolution were compressed into a 24 hour time period, then agriculture as we know it started about six minutes ago and modern dietary guidelines were issued about 1.5 seconds ago. When did people start getting T2 diabetes, again? This is kind of my point. That 1.5 seconds ago also corresponds to the time in our history where we've ramped up the meat, dairy and processed food consumption to insane levels. We simply eat way too much meat, dairy and processed foods to be even close to healthy on a population scale. Most people think that type 2 diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar or carbs. It is not. High blood sugar is a symptom of diabetes, not the cause. T2 diabetes is caused by insulin resistance. Insulin resistance happens when there is a dysregulation in the insulin/insulin receptor pathway that allows insulin to chaperone glucose into your muscle cells for energy. This dysregulation results from excess intramyocellular lipid...excess fat inside our cells. Essentially excess fat gums up the lock on our cells not allowing insulin to function properly, thus glucose builds in our blood and you get high blood sugar and all the damage and complications that comes with it. It's the excess saturated fat from processed foods, meat and dairy (cheese being exceptionally bad) that leads to insulin resistance, high blood sugar and eventually diabetes. I used to be diabetic, but I no longer am and I don't take a single drug to manage it. I eat loads and loads of carbs everyday in the form of whole grains, beans and starchy vegetables but my episodic glucose readings are normal as is my A1C. Again, I know none of this is going to convince anyone. I know that I clutched onto to my smoked ribs, briskets and thick grilled ribeyes with everything I had, but ultimately being a scientist I just couldn't ignore the mountains of evidence staring me in the face anymore, and the results that I achieved after just one month of going plant based were literally life changing. I still eat meat once in a blue moon, but I honestly don't miss it. I'll likely have some wings when I come up for the home opener, but I won't ever eat meat again for breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday like most people do. And don't even get me started on dairy.... 2
The Plastic Cup Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 4 hours ago, /dev/null said: It wasn't bad, but it wasn't that great either. And definitely not worth the mark up. I'll stick with the real thing. Mark up??? Shouldn’t they be cheaper? Sort of a ‘peace dividend’ for saving the planet?? 1
Doc Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 11 hours ago, The Plastic Cup said: Mark up??? Shouldn’t they be cheaper? Sort of a ‘peace dividend’ for saving the planet?? Carbon debit? 1
LeviF Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 12 hours ago, BillsFanNC said: Unfortunately there aren't many examples of randomized controlled trials in human nutrition studies, but there are examples of long term prospective cohort studies like this one from Harvard: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1134845 Interventional studies can be powerful, taking already sick patients and splitting them into control and experimental groups. This one published in the late 90's compared heart disease patients randomized and put on either a plant based diet or a standard care diet. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274 Amazingly they observed not only a slowing of the progression of heart disease in the intervention group as they hoped, but also a reversal of disease in some patients. Reversal of heart disease. Drugs and surgery don't reverse heart disease, they simply slow the progression by treating the symptoms and not the underlying cause. I came across this paper maybe a month into my deep dive into the literature and it ultimately led to me finding the video and website linked below. It turns out there was an MD out there way ahead of me in looking at evidence based nutrition. He talks about the heart disease intervention trial linked above at the beginning of the video, and the question he poses is what I often ask people when they question my change in diet: Can you show me a diet that has been proven to reverse heart disease? Until that day comes I'm going to stick with plant based as my default. If you're an american over say the age 15 and have been eating an average american diet, then the likely question isn't whether or not you have atherosclerosis, but rather how far has the disease progressed. Here's an interventional trial with diabetics. Experimental group ate a plant based diet, the control group ate the American Diabetes Association diet. The plant based diet outperformed the standard of care diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/pdf/ajcn8951588S.pdf i'll do that one better. I can show you populations today that subsist on a plant based diet that are devoid of the heart disease and diabetes epidemics that plague those of us who consume the western diet. Check out the "Blue Zones", Okinawa being one of them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20234038 This is kind of my point. That 1.5 seconds ago also corresponds to the time in our history where we've ramped up the meat, dairy and processed food consumption to insane levels. We simply eat way too much meat, dairy and processed foods to be even close to healthy on a population scale. Most people think that type 2 diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar or carbs. It is not. High blood sugar is a symptom of diabetes, not the cause. T2 diabetes is caused by insulin resistance. Insulin resistance happens when there is a dysregulation in the insulin/insulin receptor pathway that allows insulin to chaperone glucose into your muscle cells for energy. This dysregulation results from excess intramyocellular lipid...excess fat inside our cells. Essentially excess fat gums up the lock on our cells not allowing insulin to function properly, thus glucose builds in our blood and you get high blood sugar and all the damage and complications that comes with it. It's the excess saturated fat from processed foods, meat and dairy (cheese being exceptionally bad) that leads to insulin resistance, high blood sugar and eventually diabetes. I used to be diabetic, but I no longer am and I don't take a single drug to manage it. I eat loads and loads of carbs everyday in the form of whole grains, beans and starchy vegetables but my episodic glucose readings are normal as is my A1C. Again, I know none of this is going to convince anyone. I know that I clutched onto to my smoked ribs, briskets and thick grilled ribeyes with everything I had, but ultimately being a scientist I just couldn't ignore the mountains of evidence staring me in the face anymore, and the results that I achieved after just one month of going plant based were literally life changing. I still eat meat once in a blue moon, but I honestly don't miss it. I'll likely have some wings when I come up for the home opener, but I won't ever eat meat again for breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday like most people do. And don't even get me started on dairy.... So this is a lot but I'm going to keep it brief and say a few things about the studies and what have you. Notice that most of these studies are either making changes within the "standard" diets or replacing the "standard" diet with something else. Literally anything is better than the standard diet and the foods that are included in the standard diet are typically throwing gasoline on a fire, destroying your body's ability to regulate what's going on inside of it normally. For example, seed oils result in the formation of a compound called HNE, as well as oxidated cholesterol. Both "appear to be candidates for a primary role in the progression of the atherosclerotic process (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mnfr.200500090). By damaging proteins and lipids in cell membranes, HNE plays a role in obesity, metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes), cardiovascular disease, and neurodegeneration https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2753676/ Meanwhile it is highly questionable that dietary fat on its own causes heart disease: https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978?ijkey=7b2e366b29cdce894bf01daac4669622e87724ab&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha and whether reducing dietary fat after a diagnosis even helps: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996809/ I know what the cause of diabetes is, I disagree on how one develops insulin resistance. Your body is able to process fat just fine. Excess carbohydrates and processed poison destroy our ability to do it properly (see above). Meanwhile glycemic load and glycemic index are "dietary factors probably causal of type 2 diabetes" https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/6/1436/htm (note many of the foods you eat are low in glycemic index) and restricting carbohydrates significantly improves several measures in people with and without type 2 diabetes https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-019-4956-4 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/9/1285/htm The internet is rife with stories of the ketogenic diet, for example, reversing people's diabetes symptoms and there have been a few studies on it like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633336/ "Diabetes medications were reduced or eliminated in 95.2% of LCKD vs. 62% of LGID participants (p < 0.01)." And when it comes to cultures and what they eat...India has one of the highest vegetarian populations in the world and also some of the highest heart disease rates. So what's the difference? Processed garbage. I told you we'd agree on more than we disagreed I'll agree with you on the 1.5 seconds of processed garbage, but you want to point to 6 minutes. I'm pointing to 24 hours. You couldn't eat plant-based for the vast majority of human pre-history. Fruits and vegetables are naturally seasonal to begin with, and before formal agriculture there was no way to centralize and regulate them. If you're a hunter-gatherer responsible for feeding a tribe, are you foraging for roots and berries or are you killing the first slow-moving animal you find? Now, I'm young. But my diet consists mostly of whole cuts of meat (steaks, chicken, pork, lamb), eggs, leafy vegetables (cooked thoroughly), with some dairy, avocados, olives, and occasionally white rice. No seed oils; I cook with olive, avocado, or coconut oil. I get my blood pulled every six months and consistently get good results. My body composition is consistently good since I started eating like this. I sleep better. Also note: I typically only eat two meals per day in a six hour window. Fasting is supposed to help with a lot of the measures so I can't attribute all of my good blood work to the diet itself. Cheers to you man! Congrats on getting rid of that diabetes. Hope you live long and happy, just don't be too scared of meat 1
Gugny Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, LeviF91 said: So this is a lot but I'm going to keep it brief and say a few things about the studies and what have you. Notice that most of these studies are either making changes within the "standard" diets or replacing the "standard" diet with something else. Literally anything is better than the standard diet and the foods that are included in the standard diet are typically throwing gasoline on a fire, destroying your body's ability to regulate what's going on inside of it normally. For example, seed oils result in the formation of a compound called HNE, as well as oxidated cholesterol. Both "appear to be candidates for a primary role in the progression of the atherosclerotic process (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mnfr.200500090). By damaging proteins and lipids in cell membranes, HNE plays a role in obesity, metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes), cardiovascular disease, and neurodegeneration https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2753676/ Meanwhile it is highly questionable that dietary fat on its own causes heart disease: https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978?ijkey=7b2e366b29cdce894bf01daac4669622e87724ab&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha and whether reducing dietary fat after a diagnosis even helps: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996809/ I know what the cause of diabetes is, I disagree on how one develops insulin resistance. Your body is able to process fat just fine. Excess carbohydrates and processed poison destroy our ability to do it properly (see above). Meanwhile glycemic load and glycemic index are "dietary factors probably causal of type 2 diabetes" https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/6/1436/htm (note many of the foods you eat are low in glycemic index) and restricting carbohydrates significantly improves several measures in people with and without type 2 diabetes https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-019-4956-4 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/9/1285/htm The internet is rife with stories of the ketogenic diet, for example, reversing people's diabetes symptoms and there have been a few studies on it like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633336/ "Diabetes medications were reduced or eliminated in 95.2% of LCKD vs. 62% of LGID participants (p < 0.01)." And when it comes to cultures and what they eat...India has one of the highest vegetarian populations in the world and also some of the highest heart disease rates. So what's the difference? Processed garbage. I told you we'd agree on more than we disagreed I'll agree with you on the 1.5 seconds of processed garbage, but you want to point to 6 minutes. I'm pointing to 24 hours. You couldn't eat plant-based for the vast majority of human pre-history. Fruits and vegetables are naturally seasonal to begin with, and before formal agriculture there was no way to centralize and regulate them. If you're a hunter-gatherer responsible for feeding a tribe, are you foraging for roots and berries or are you killing the first slow-moving animal you find? Now, I'm young. But my diet consists mostly of whole cuts of meat (steaks, chicken, pork, lamb), eggs, leafy vegetables (cooked thoroughly), with some dairy, avocados, olives, and occasionally white rice. No seed oils; I cook with olive, avocado, or coconut oil. I get my blood pulled every six months and consistently get good results. My body composition is consistently good since I started eating like this. I sleep better. Also note: I typically only eat two meals per day in a six hour window. Fasting is supposed to help with a lot of the measures so I can't attribute all of my good blood work to the diet itself. Cheers to you man! Congrats on getting rid of that diabetes. Hope you live long and happy, just don't be too scared of meat That's brief? Thanks, Exiled. 4
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 Quote Notice that most of these studies are either making changes within the "standard" diets or replacing the "standard" diet with something else. Literally anything is better than the standard diet and the foods that are included in the standard diet are typically throwing gasoline on a fire, destroying your body's ability to regulate what's going on inside of it normally. Absolutely, the standard american diet (SAD) is poison. Processed junk plays a big role, but not the only role as meat and dairy are culprits as well and that's where we disagree. We don't know from the two interventional studies that I cited what the subjects were eating prior to getting sick, but it's a pretty safe assumption that they were eating the SAD. Now, with the heart disease interventional trial they introduced two diets, both of which of course are going to provide benefits and are vastly nutritionally superior to whatever the subjects had been eating. But again, the control diet as they stated in the paper was just to follow their cardiologists advice on diet and those patients saw their disease get worse while the plant based diet actually reversed coronary artery disease. Reversed it as in they saw their arteries open up. That's powerful and something that's never been shown with any other dietary intervention. Maybe you could do a similar study with the keto diet using healthy subjects who don't have advanced heart disease, but they'd never be able to get a study using any high fat diet on patients with advanced stage heart disease past a review board because it would be unethical. Quote For example, seed oils result in the formation of a compound called HNE, as well as oxidated cholesterol. Both "appear to be candidates for a primary role in the progression of the atherosclerotic process (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mnfr.200500090). By damaging proteins and lipids in cell membranes, HNE plays a role in obesity, metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes), cardiovascular disease, and neurodegeneration https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2753676/ Here's another area where we agree. All oils are bad for you to varying degrees. Oils are after all just processed fat. Quote Meanwhile it is highly questionable that dietary fat on its own causes heart disease: https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978?ijkey=7b2e366b29cdce894bf01daac4669622e87724ab&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha and whether reducing dietary fat after a diagnosis even helps: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996809/ ok, a couple of meta analyses. I'll take a look at both, but these take a fine tooth comb because you have to go back and look at all the studies that they included individually. Who sponsors any given study is the very first thing I look for when reading a nutrition paper, but I'll come back to that later. Bottom line is that these always take some time to digest but I will look at them. As for the second meta about lowering dietary fat after diagnosis being helpful, I'll bet the study I shared that demonstrated reducing saturated fat and cholesterol to zero reversed heart disease in some patients somehow met their exclusion criteria. ? Quote I know what the cause of diabetes is, I disagree on how one develops insulin resistance. Your body is able to process fat just fine. Excess carbohydrates and processed poison destroy our ability to do it properly (see above). We will have to agree to majorly disagree here. Here is a recent review on insulin resistance published in Cell. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3294420/ Quote Insulin resistance is a complex metabolic disorder that defies a single etiological pathway. Accumulation of ectopic lipid metabolites, activation of the unfolded protein response (UPR) pathway and innate immune pathways have all been implicated in the pathogenesis of insulin resistance. However, these pathways are also closely linked to changes in fatty acid uptake, lipogenesis, and energy expenditure that can impact ectopic lipid deposition. Ultimately, accumulation of specific lipid metabolites (diacylglycerols and/or ceramides) in liver and skeletal muscle, may be a common pathway leading to impaired insulin signaling By the way if you don't have full access to any of these papers I'll be glad to share pdf's of any of them with you. Quote Meanwhile glycemic load and glycemic index are "dietary factors probably causal of type 2 diabetes" https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/6/1436/htm (note many of the foods you eat are low in glycemic index) and restricting carbohydrates significantly improves several measures in people with and without type 2 diabetes https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-019-4956-4 https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/9/1285/htm The first one is another meta analysis and again will take some digestion, but they do acknowledge risk factors right in the introduction dietary fat among them. I'm also aware of glycemic index and load and that's precisely why my diet is called a whole food plant based diet. The last two papers demonstrate why it's important to read the funding and potential conflict of interest section. The first paper is funded in part by Arla Food for Health and google tells me that's its a dairy company. The second paper was funded by the Danish Dairy Research Foundation. Might they have an interest in people including more protein and fat (dairy) in their diets? Does the conflict automatically man the data is crap? No, but I definitely look at these studies with a bigger grain of salt than others. The dairy, meat and egg industries are very powerful and fund a lot of nutrition research. "Big kale" and "big broccoli" not so much. Even still I don't dispute at all that severely limiting your carbohydrate intake will improve your diabetes markers, but again those diets are treating the symptoms of diabetes and not the cause. It's not hard to imagine that if you eat less sugar and carbs then your blood sugar spikes wont be as high. Quote The internet is rife with stories of the ketogenic diet, for example, reversing people's diabetes symptoms and there have been a few studies on it like this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633336/ "Diabetes medications were reduced or eliminated in 95.2% of LCKD vs. 62% of LGID participants (p < 0.01)." With this one again I first looked at funding: The Robert C. Atkins Foundation. The good old Atkins diet is the precursor of all the new low carb high protein diets. Rumor has it that Dr. Atkins died an obese man from a heart attack, but that's a highly guarded secret. Anyway, again this only raises a red flag and I'll still look at it closely, but at first glance I'll just say that any diet on the planet if followed correctly will help you lose weight. You'll lose weight on the Atkins diet, the keto, paleo, south beach, plant based etc. Any diabetic who loses weight is going to see improvement in their numbers simply because they lost weight. The question should be what diet helps you lose weight, maintain the weight loss while at the same time promoting long term health and well being. I don't believe that the Atkins diet or any of it's variations accomplishes those things. So the improved A1C numbers from both groups are not surprising, although lowering it from the high 8's to low 7's is still uncontrolled diabetes. Quote And when it comes to cultures and what they eat...India has one of the highest vegetarian populations in the world and also some of the highest heart disease rates. So what's the difference? Processed garbage. I told you we'd agree on more than we disagreed I'll agree with you on the 1.5 seconds of processed garbage, but you want to point to 6 minutes. I'm pointing to 24 hours. You couldn't eat plant-based for the vast majority of human pre-history. Fruits and vegetables are naturally seasonal to begin with, and before formal agriculture there was no way to centralize and regulate them. If you're a hunter-gatherer responsible for feeding a tribe, are you foraging for roots and berries or are you killing the first slow-moving animal you find? Yep, we've westernized the indian diet and diabetes has exploded unsurprisingly, the whole country isn't vegetarian though just certain regions. It's hard to ignore the blue zones where diabetes and heart disease are virtually non existant..no processed junk and also very very little meat (like <5% of their diet) and dairy. Processed foods are loaded with extra sugar, fat and stripped of fiber but you seem to just be focused on the high sugar/carb aspect which I agree is bad and ignore the saturated and trans fats that come in processed foods (and meat / dairy). All the people in the blue zones have been eating plant based from pre-historic times right up until today. I can promise you this, our ancestors weren't gorging themselves on meat two or three times every day for their entire lives. That's the problem in recent history is the explosion in the easy, cheap meals that we gobble up at left and right that are loaded with the compounds that cause chronic disease, even 100 years ago this wasn't the case as many families only had meat for special occasions or on Sundays. We just have grown to eat way too much of it as a society. Quote Now, I'm young. But my diet consists mostly of whole cuts of meat (steaks, chicken, pork, lamb), eggs, leafy vegetables (cooked thoroughly), with some dairy, avocados, olives, and occasionally white rice. No seed oils; I cook with olive, avocado, or coconut oil. I get my blood pulled every six months and consistently get good results. My body composition is consistently good since I started eating like this. I sleep better. Also note: I typically only eat two meals per day in a six hour window. Fasting is supposed to help with a lot of the measures so I can't attribute all of my good blood work to the diet itself. Cheers to you man! Congrats on getting rid of that diabetes. Hope you live long and happy, just don't be too scared of meat I've been reading up on the science of fasting recently. I'd encourage you to check out Valter Longo at USC, he has developed something called the fast mimicking diet that produces the same beneficial effects from fasting but without completely fasting. I think it's 5 days .. 1100 calories on day 1 and 700-800 on days 2-5. Really fascinating work that has showed benefits for people with chronic dietary disease as well as with patients undergoing chemotherapy. I'll warn you that he does advocate mainly plant based but he does recommend fish a few times a week.
BillsFanNC Posted August 20, 2019 Posted August 20, 2019 Getting away from the overall diet debate, I'd highly recommend that folks watch this Ted talk by Dr. Valter Longo. He has some truly compelling data showing the benefits of intermittent fasting from his early work on yeast and worms all the way up through human trials.
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