Handwriting versus typing

[MR8]

19 hours ago, teef said:

i missed this.  i don't have adhd, but i have the exact same thing going on.  my hand just can't move fast enough to get the ideas out, so it's shockingly sloppy.  i'm also a fast talker for that same reason.  i have a few thoughts in my head that i'm always trying to get to.  it drives old people nuts.

 

I find this shocking you must be writing a letter a minute because I can't imagine you thinking fast enough for this to be a problem... 

3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

there are various layouts.  There was a change to a common QWERTY keyboard in the US.  

 

 

In this example AZERTY is used in France 

 

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2019/01/10/why-was-the-qwerty-keyboard-layout-invented/#6a043cfb57ae

 

 

 

I wonder if in 100 years when writing is entirely done, will there be a great debate about changing key boards and forcing people to re-learn just like the debates that have been had about Metric versus the English system of measurement... which we are still the only country to still use, despite having officially "converted to metric" for 30 years... 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

11 minutes ago, MR8 said:

 

I find this shocking you must be writing a letter a minute because I can't imagine you thinking fast enough for this to be a problem... 

 

I wonder if in 100 years when writing is entirely done, will there be a great debate about changing key boards and forcing people to re-learn just like the debates that have been had about Metric versus the English system of measurement... which we are still the only country to still use, despite having officially "converted to metric" for 30 years... 

 

In 100 years people will just have to think it and it will print 

 

 

[MR8]

20 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

In 100 years people will just have to think it and it will print 

 

 

 

you still think we'll be using paper.... you're soooooooo 20th century! 

[Greybeard]

40 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

#truth ... I have absolutely NO idea how I was able to handwrite papers in high school

       I could write them, but I have no idea how anyone could correct them.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

 

you still think we'll be using paper.... you're soooooooo 20th century! 

sorry I forgot to mentally say on a video screen 

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

21 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

You must be a youngster 

 

We wrote with pen and pencil  uphill both ways 

 

Without spell checker too!

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

Without spell checker too!

 

a spell checker was a book they call a dictionary  

 

 

 

 

If I can't spell it how am I supposed to find it in a dictionary  ??

 

life was soooooo hard  

Edited August 14, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

#truth ... I have absolutely NO idea how I was able to handwrite papers in high school

 

The act of cursive writing puts a lot of pressure on tendons and muscles in your hand.

When you are young you get used to it and you strengthen them.

Your body also recovers faster.

 

When you get older you get things such as carpal tunnel syndrome and writing will definitely aggravate it and you do not recover as fast.

For me I have issue not in wrist but in pad between fingers and thumb but the pain is similar and cursive writing is definitely something which aggravates it.

[Nextmanup]

On 8/13/2019 at 4:42 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

I always studied by paraphrasing my notes in writing the night before.  Worked like a charm.

That's how I learned all vocabulary words in German class.

 

Just writing stuff over and over and it burned in.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

On 8/13/2019 at 4:47 PM, MR8 said:

 

They no longer teach penmanship or anything like that in schools... 

A. My students all have Chromebooks to do their work on.

B. Teaching penmanship takes significant instructional time, particularly for many students with disabilities.

C. I only have x amount of time per day to work on a student's goals. Please prioritize for me.  Reading, Math, Science, Social Studies/History, being a decent human being, penmanship.

D. I, as an employed fully functioning adult in 2019 with a family and a mortgage only handwrite my name in my actual daily life. 

E. Those who wish to hold schools accountable do not test penmanship, therefore, instructional time is not devoted to penmanship.

 

I'm sorry if this comes off as overly snarky but I've had this conversation many times.  There are skills that increase and decrease in importance as time passes.  Right now, the importance of good penmanship is as close to zero as it has been since the Middle Ages.  We could teach the kids blacksmithing or make them fluent in Sanskrit too but it's unlikely they will use it much.  If all I do now is write my name, what are kids going to be doing 30 years from now when they are my age?

[PromoTheRobot]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:44 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

It’s only a matter of time before hand writing is completely “obsolete.”  Not even joking.

 

I forgot how to write in cursive years ago. They spent years in grammar school teaching me how, then in high school teachers wanted hand lettered only. WTF.

[MR8]

8 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

A. My students all have Chromebooks to do their work on.

B. Teaching penmanship takes significant instructional time, particularly for many students with disabilities.

C. I only have x amount of time per day to work on a student's goals. Please prioritize for me.  Reading, Math, Science, Social Studies/History, being a decent human being, penmanship.

D. I, as an employed fully functioning adult in 2019 with a family and a mortgage only handwrite my name in my actual daily life. 

E. Those who wish to hold schools accountable do not test penmanship, therefore, instructional time is not devoted to penmanship.

 

I'm sorry if this comes off as overly snarky but I've had this conversation many times.  There are skills that increase and decrease in importance as time passes.  Right now, the importance of good penmanship is as close to zero as it has been since the Middle Ages.  We could teach the kids blacksmithing or make them fluent in Sanskrit too but it's unlikely they will use it much.  If all I do now is write my name, what are kids going to be doing 30 years from now when they are my age?

 

Naw it's okay, I'm used to it.  No one makes their job sound harder than teachers....

 

Enjoy the rest of your 3 month break before having to work for 3 months before getting your next extended break. 

[That's No Moon]

3 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

Naw it's okay, I'm used to it.  No one makes their job sound harder than teachers....

 

Enjoy the rest of your 3 month break before having to work for 3 months before getting your next extended break. 

You think it's easy you're welcome to come in and try it.

[MR8]

10 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

You think it's easy you're welcome to come in and try it.

Never said it's "easy", but no one complains more about their job, or goes out of their way to make their job sound harder than teachers... I am sure there are challenges, but you also have the flexibility that no other job has, like having 3 months off in the summer, plus holidays, and breaks throughout the year.  

 

I have a sister, a niece, and a sister in law who are teachers, my wife's best friend is a teacher, and I am friends with 2 guys who are teachers... between those people I have never met a more "know it all" group of people who think their job is the hardest, most noteworthy career on the planet.  

 

Even aside from that group, in general, teachers are an arrogant group who love to 1 soap box about their profession and 2 complain about how hard they have it... as exemplified by promo coming out of no where feeling it necessary to explain the difficulties of teaching something that is obviously antiquated and the thread already has poked fun about, and at the same time mix how hard his job is and he can do 1 more thing etc... like I said, feeling it his job to unsolicited "educate me" about the obvious reasons why handwriting isn't taught.  All I said was that it wasn't taught... no judgement just pointing out fact...

 

Honestly the reasons are self-explanatory, but as a group teachers love to soapbox about their profession... More than any other I have ever met... 

 

How about this... the school year should be year round with breaks spread out throughout the year so kids don't have so much down time, and they are constantly learning instead of zoning out for 3 months then getting back into the swing of it.  More time in the class room  means more time for the kids to learn more skills, and more time for teachers to work hand in hand with their students.

 

#1 group against that are teachers... 

[That's No Moon]

8 minutes ago, MR8 said:

How about this... the school year should be year round with breaks spread out throughout the year so kids don't have so much down time, and they are constantly learning instead of zoning out for 3 months then getting back into the swing of it.  More time in the class room  means more time for the kids to learn more skills, and more time for teachers to work hand in hand with their students.

 

#1 group against that are teachers... 

I agree with you that following the agrarian calendar is stupid. Teachers don't make the calendar. The school board does and they are able to change it as they see fit. The school board is elected by the community. If the community wants to do away with summer break they can do it.

 

Your complaints sound more like a complaint about your family members. I like my job and I chose my profession. I don't need you to kiss my rear end to do it just don't crap on me for doing it.

 

My overall point from my first post hasn't been answered. You want me to teach penmanship I will. The community sets the curriculum, not the teachers.  What DON'T you want me to teach to make time for that?  

[muppy]

On 8/14/2019 at 9:31 AM, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

In 100 years people will just have to think it and it will print 

 

 

that is some deep chit right there....can you imagine the debauchery? HA Lord have mercy

Edited August 16, 2019 by muppy

[Saxum]

13 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

We could teach the kids blacksmithing or make them fluent in Sanskrit too but it's unlikely they will use it much.  If all I do now is write my name, what are kids going to be doing 30 years from now when they are my age?

 

If blacksmithing was taught in high school it would have been a lot more fun that wood shop I was taught.

 

And Sanskrit? I actually asked about it in college but it was not a language option except for grad students as independent study.

[That's No Moon]

4 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

If blacksmithing was taught in high school it would have been a lot more fun that wood shop I was taught.

 

And Sanskrit? I actually asked about it in college but it was not a language option except for grad students as independent study.

Don't worry. We don't have wood shop anymore either.

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

I agree with you that following the agrarian calendar is stupid. Teachers don't make the calendar. The school board does and they are able to change it as they see fit. The school board is elected by the community. If the community wants to do away with summer break they can do it.

 

Your complaints sound more like a complaint about your family members. I like my job and I chose my profession. I don't need you to kiss my rear end to do it just don't crap on me for doing it.

 

My overall point from my first post hasn't been answered. You want me to teach penmanship I will. The community sets the curriculum, not the teachers.  What DON'T you want me to teach to make time for that?  

Hypothetically, if you had 100% control over the curriculum, would you teach penmanship? If yes, how much time and effort would be put into in comparison with the other subjects?

Edited August 16, 2019 by The Real Buffalo Joe

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Hypothetically, if you had 100% control over the curriculum, would you teach penmanship? If yes, how much time and effort would be put into in comparison with the other subjects?

Personally?  I think a kid needs to be able to print reasonably legibly and sign their name.  Reading, Math, Civics and Problem Solving (not just math) take big priority.  Reading and Math skills take priority because without those you can't access the other subjects even if you want to.  Civics because too many people don't understand how the country and world actually function and more knowledge of that will be better for everyone.

 

Problem solving as a skill because I see SO MANY kids that really struggle with this and it will hurt them as adults.  I have had some kids who have long histories of high achievement and super high expectations that really struggle to figure out how to do things on their own.  I have a constant battle with them and sometimes their parents when I give them a project to do and then don't tell them how to specifically do all of the steps to get it accomplished.  I want them to try to figure it out.  I want them to try and fail and then try again.  That is a BIG hurdle for some of them but IMO that's one of the biggest things you can teach a kid to do and we don't reward that enough as a society.  We reward the kid that can regurgitate the textbook or get their parents to do half the work for them but punish the kid who tries to do something on their own, fails, but can explain to you why they failed and what they learned from the failure.  I do things that that in my classroom and I assure you it's extraordinarily hard to grade things like that without causing a crapstorm.  Every time I tell a class something like "Please do X, here is an example of one way to do it, here is one example of what you shouldn't do, I can give you suggestions but you have to ask me specific questions".  I know I'm going to have 45 emails the next morning from frustrated parents who tried to do the assignment for the kid to make sure they got the grade they wanted but couldn't do it either because there weren't 5 pages of step by step instructions. I do it anyway because by the end of the year they are better at doing it but Fall of every year is interesting to say the least.  Saying "I need help" and throwing up your hands doesn't fly in my class.  I'm not going to come to your desk and do it for you.  I need you to think about what you don't understand and ask me a question.  Even if it's just the directions, I need you to think about that and understand that that is the part you don't know and ask for clarification on that. You wouldn't be put on a project at work and then e-mail your boss and say "I don't know what to do" and expect that problem to be solved for you.  You would try to figure it out and if you really needed help you would ask a specific question about the specific parameter you were struggling with.  You'd probably consult with some co-workers before you got to the point of asking your boss too.  I'm sure some of you have employees who struggle with this and my wife has complained about it multiple times with her associates over the years. I have co-workers who struggle with it.  They can't function without a super specific curriculum that says what to do and when to do it.  I don't want that.  Show me where the goalposts are, I'll figure out how to get there each year based on the students I have.  There will be some trial and error involved every year because every class is different and I might need to do different types of stuff this year compared to last or in period 1 as opposed to period 4.  

 

This is a long conversation honestly.  I'm not the biggest fan of the way we do high school in this country either.  We jam too many kids into college prep programs and make it too difficult for kids that don't want to go that route.  There's nothing wrong with being a plumber or a carpenter and you can make a good living doing that and we have a need of skilled tradespeople that is going to increase as the current generation retires.  I think K-8 is the time for the solid basic skills for everyone then you can start to branch out from there.  I might even split high school into 9-10 and 11-12 where in 9-10 you pick a track and essentially get the basic requirements of that then choose a specialty for 11-12.  When you're done with 12 you either move to college with a really good foundation for your chosen pathway or you move into a trade with a good foundational knowledge of that.  Vo-tech works that way more or less (at least it does here) but there aren't nearly enough sports in Vo-tech schools for the number of kids that want them.  College track could move in that direction as well.  It does already to an extent wherein you can take AP classes, etc as an upperclassman but we could do a better job there also.

 

Long story short, I think teaching penmanship in school is a giant waste of time.  Learn to print, learn to sign your name.  If you want to learn more do it at home the way people learn calligraphy now.

Edited August 16, 2019 by That's No Moon
Forgot something