thebandit27 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: And that ball was NOT "behind" Jones. Dude can't catch. Yep. I'm happy to call out a bad throw when I see it...like the 3rd down throw to Zay that was in the dirt on the first series. But good grief.
Bangarang Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 This is such fake news. BTW, Mayfield looks like he’s going to be incredible. 1
Mr. WEO Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Yep. I'm happy to call out a bad throw when I see it...like the 3rd down throw to Zay that was in the dirt on the first series. But good grief. Problem with that throw was that it was placed right between the 2 hands of Zay Jones. 2 1
K-9 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 This picayune, over analysis of the throw to Zay Jones is absurd and really points to a pre-determined narrative more than anything else. Is anyone really under the misguided impression that the greatest passers in history placed every ball in the absolute perfect position, on time, to be caught by their receivers; that the best throwers in history never relied on their receivers to have to make a play now and then? Plays far more difficult than Jones was asked to make? We’ve all seen some of the best passers in history make worse throws than Allen to better covered receivers than Jones for completions because those receivers were able to put themselves in FAR more uncomfortable positions and STILL make the catch. The Zay Jones incompletion was on Jones. Entirely. End of story.
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, K-9 said: Is anyone really under the misguided impression that the greatest passers in history placed every ball in the absolute perfect position, on time, to be caught by their receivers; You're totally missing the point. OFC no one is saying that. They just threw/throw it more accurately more often than Allen.
K-9 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Element115 said: You're totally missing the point. OFC no one is saying that. They just threw/throw it more accurately more often than Allen. It’s not me who’s missing the point here.
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: It’s not me who’s missing the point here. 52.8% is the point. After 2019, there will be another point to discuss. We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season.
Seasons1992 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: The ball was out in 2 seconds. That's not late. After seeing three years of this, I've seen enough. 1 1
K-9 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, Element115 said: 52.8% is the point. After 2019, there will be another point to discuss. We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season. No, that’s not the point. The point of discussion here is the Zay Jones drop. Period. If you insist on using a dropped pass as a pretense for digressing into (yet another) critique of Allen’s completion percentage, I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum. But feel free, regardless. You may not want to use a dropped pass as a proof source when citing Allen’s completion percentage, though. 2
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: No, that’s not the point. The point of discussion here is the Zay Jones drop. Period. If you insist on using a dropped pass as a pretense for digressing into (yet another) critique of Allen’s completion percentage, I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum. But feel free, regardless. You may not want to use a dropped pass as a proof source when citing Allen’s completion percentage, though. All QB's have balls dropped. Yes, Allen had a high incidence of that last season, however, that was not the only or even main reason his completion percentage was so poor.
MJS Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 The throw I saw criticized was the curl route that Allen threw to Zay that he caught and immediately got tackled. Cosell said he was late on that throw, which allowed the defender to make a big hit.
K-9 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Element115 said: All QB's have balls dropped. Yes, Allen had a high incidence of that last season, however, that was not the only or even main reason his completion percentage was so poor. What about the term, “I’m not interested as it’s been discussed ad infinitum”, is difficult to understand? Like I said, this is about one play: the Jones drop. If you’re interested in discussing the totally separate issue of Allen’s completion percentage, feel free to do so. But AFAIAC, the issue has been beaten to death and there is no new ground to hoe.
oldmanfan Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 23 minutes ago, Element115 said: 52.8% is the point. After 2019, there will be another point to discuss. We can then correlate that point with how well the Bills did this season. How many times on this board does it have to be brought up that completion percentage is not the same as accuracy? I don't know what Cosell and others wanted on this pass. If he puts it out front more, then the safety might be able to make a play on the ball, or it puts him in a better position to cream Jones and knock the ball out. He hit Jones right in the hands between the CB and safety, right in the hands, and he dropped it. When hitting a receiver right in the hands between two defenders is cause for being critical of the QB, I think that takes critiques to a ridiculous level. 2 2
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: How many times on this board does it have to be brought up that completion percentage is not the same as accuracy? And how many times does it needed to be pointed out that accuracy is a component of completion percentage?
dave mcbride Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Element115 said: That link is a 404, but I found it. Mayfeild's pass is better timed, and in tighter coverage. Both plays required the receiver to adjust. Um ... the Allen pass was right on target. Exactly where it should have been. 35 minutes ago, K-9 said: It’s not me who’s missing the point here. The pass was right on the money, so why are we even debating this, at least with regard to this pass?? 1
Stank_Nasty Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Element115 said: It was late, which located it behind Jones. Still should have been caught. how many times do people have to post a replay of that play around here before a handful of you stop saying this?.... its literally not behind him and if he makes the initial catch RIGHT IN HIS HANDS AT FACEMASK LEVEL he has the chance to cover up or lunge at the endzone. it was his own stonehands and bobble that got him hung out to dry. 4
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Um ... the Allen pass was right on target. Exactly where it should have been. The pass was right on the money, so why are we even debating this, at least with regard to this pass?? Look at the position of receivers' feet in both catches. Edited August 13, 2019 by Element115
Alphadawg7 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, The Firebaugh Kid said: Great throw by Josh. Zays eyes came up before he secured the catch. Gotta be tough to go over the middle (see Andre Reed). However....its preseason. So Zay gets a pass on this one (pun intended). Does he get a pass on all the drops he’s had the last 2 seasons too that were right in his hands? Why does he get a pass here? He’s fighting for a starting job, he’s gotta prove he deserves it because his resume says he should be on the bench as a depth WR not a starter. I’m just tired of excuses for his sub par play thus far. He needs to show he can be reliable on the field and that Josh can trust him. 1
oldmanfan Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Element115 said: And how many times does it needed to be pointed out that accuracy is a component of completion percentage? And how many times does one factor out of many that affect a variable get beaten to death. I have said this many times before and will do so again here. Let's say a QB throws 30 passes a game and completes 16. That gives you very close to the 52.8% completion percentage to harp about. Now let's say he completes 18 of 30. That is the magical 60% some seem to be obsessed with. That is a difference of two completion a game. Now go back to last season and see how many drops or throwaways he had. That alone gets you where you want to be. I have said continually all off season that Allen needs to continue to improve, he needs to get better at his reads, get better at going to check down guys (which looked better in the first pre-season game). And he needs receivers that actually catch the damn ball. All of these are areas that should improve this coming year. So can we please for the love of God quit harping on this completion percentage nonsense as if it means anything about accuracy? Can we please for the love of God quit criticizing Allen or any QB, for hitting guys right in the hands and somehow blaming them for the incompletion? Can we please for the love of God quit dissecting each and every throw a second year QB makes in a preseason game as if it will definitively prove or disprove the guy's worth? If this is the depth of what some will do to critique Allen, then there will never be a QB for the Bills, nor probably has there ever been a QB for the Bills or for any other team for that matter, than could withstand that microscopic level of scrutiny. Edited August 13, 2019 by oldmanfan 3
Element115 Posted August 13, 2019 Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: And how many times does one factor out of many that affect a variable get beaten to death. I have said this many times before and will do so again here. Let's say a QB throws 30 passes a game and completes 16. That gives you very close to the 52.8% completion percentage to harp about. Now let's say he completes 16 of 30. That is the magical 60% some seem to be obsessed with. That is a difference of two completion a game. Now go back to last season and see how many drops or throwaways he had. That alone gets you where you want to be. I have said continually all off season that Allen needs to continue to improve, he needs to get better at his reads, get better at going to check down guys (which looked better in the first pre-season game). And he needs receivers that actually catch the damn ball. All of these are areas that should improve this coming year. So can we please for the love of God quit harping on this completion percentage nonsense as if it means anything about accuracy? Can we please for the love of God quit criticizing Allen or any QB, for hitting guys right in the hands and somehow blaming them for the incompletion? Can we please for the love of God quit dissecting each and every throw a second year QB makes in a preseason game as if it will definitively prove or disprove the guy's worth? If this is the depth of what some will do to critique Allen, then there will never be a QB for the Bills, nor probably has there ever been a QB for the Bills or for any other team for that matter, than could withstand that microscopic level of scrutiny. I'm sorry but the debate here and around the NFL about this topic will not go away as much as you want it to. Modern day QB's can't have a 50% completion percentage, bottom line. Yes, it's not all on Allen, but a good majority of it is. If we want the Bills to win SuperBowl's, Allen cannot be a 50% passer, not even for this season.
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