Carl Paladino: Put new stadium in Cobblestone district

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

You have got Paladino absolutely nailed.  I don't think he has ever risked a penny of his own to develop anything in Buffalo even when he was the supposed "lead developer".  He's always made sure -- with the help of his cronies -- that his profit was always guaranteed by the taxpayers.

 

 

Who is this "they" that have studied renovating NEF for years and declared it impossible.  My guess it's individuals, groups, and businesses with vested interests in siting a stadium in downtown Buffalo, specifically in a place that will benefit them and not necessarily the city of Buffalo and certainly not city, county, and state taxpayers who will have to kick in at least hundreds of millions whether the stadium is renovated or built new and no matter where it's located.

 

Unless the City of Buffalo and the Pegulas are putting up their own money, which is highly unlikely, what their goals are is irrelevant.   Erie County and New York State will be the primary sources of public revenue, so their goals should be what's important, and those should include keeping the total cost of the stadium, including land and infrastructure, as reasonable as possible.  Do not underestimate the  importance of issues with land acquisition costs and neighborhood opposition to New York State, either.  It was those two issues that sunk the Giants/Jests building their new stadium in NYC rather than NJ.   IIRC, the bond issue for the NYC stadium on the West Side was killed off by the legislature.

 

If 60-80k individuals attend a football, then the infrastructure has to be able to handle that number leaving the downtown, three or four times the max for the Sabres.  It's easy to say "rail and some by bus routes/Uber" but the rail in Buffalo consists of a single line.  Even if it's expanded into Amherst, there's still only 1 line.  Buses and Uber will be hampered by the same issues that exist for private vehicles, no access at all westward and very limited access southward, and access in all directions very limited by narrow city streets, many of which are one-way.  There's no way to get around the fact that a downtown stadium will require significantly more infrastructure improvement compared to a stadium at/near the current site in OP.

Conspiracy theories aside, the County studied it prior to their most recent round of renovations to the stadium. Those were done in lieu of a more expensive renovation at the time ( certainly the cost has gone up since then). Ex Bills LB Scott Radecic is an architect for a firm that did work for the county on the project. I recall reading in an article about the work at the time that the way the stadium was originally constructed is a  limiting factor to major improvements ( widening of concourses etc) because it is partially below ground. I don’t know much more about it, but I doubt the County was angling for a new stadium at the time. It’s too bad they didn’t opt for what was considered a full scale renovation at the time though. Maybe it wouldn’t be an issue now. 

[Boatdrinks]

On 8/3/2019 at 4:11 PM, Jrb1979 said:

Why is it so many are against a downtown stadium or a new stadium? I have never had an issue leaving downtown after a Sabres game but then again I usually go to one of the bars to wait til traffic clears. What's wrong with a stadium like the Browns play in but downtown?

I’d suspect there are many reasons, ranging from unwillingness to pay what will inevitably be higher prices to wanting to preserve the current tailgating environment. Some of it may just be aversion to change. As for your question regarding a Browns type stadium, I’d offer that type of design may not provide the pricing power that is the goal behind a new stadium in the first place. The purpose of replacing NEF is at this time not a utilitarian one. It’s not crumbling to the ground or unsafe. The purpose is going to be creating new revenue streams through  conveniences and amenities along with fewer seats to implement a new, higher pricing structure. 

[Saxum]

7 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

I would not not expect them to look at infrastructure to get 60-80,000 fans out of downtown after a game.  I would expect that they have parking for about 15-20,000 fans downtown- similar to a Sabre’s game.  That means 30-40,000 by rail and some by bus routes/Uber.  The big loss will be the RV lot - hoping to be replaced by hotel rooms right there and access to food, drinks, and the casino.

 

LOL how does Uber work other than help those to paid to help advertise?

You still need to get the car there and back and you need waiting space as well.

 

Some who want a specific solution will add anything they think would support their point of view.

I am surprised you did not suggest blimps from which event goers could leave from stadium roof!

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

LOL how does Uber work other than help those to paid to help advertise?

You still need to get the car there and back and you need waiting space as well.

 

Some who want a specific solution will add anything they think would support their point of view.

I am surprised you did not suggest blimps from which event goers could leave from stadium roof!

 

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I live about 3 miles from the new Braves stadium in Atlanta. I NEVER drive there on game days. I Uber 100% of the time. It’s easier and probably cheaper than parking. I’ve also Ubered to NFL games in various cities. You may get surge pricing, but that’s just another reason to hang out for a couple more hours and enjoy the crowd and have a few more pops. Or, walk 10-15 blocks and THEN call your Uber. It’s really pretty great! 

 

The Atlanta airport used to ban Uber, but finally figured it out. They have a specific covered area you go to, and it works like a charm.....for half the cost of a taxi. 

 

AGAIN, I don’t care where the Bills play....as long as it’s in WNY. 

[Jrb1979]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d suspect there are many reasons, ranging from unwillingness to pay what will inevitably be higher prices to wanting to preserve the current tailgating environment. Some of it may just be aversion to change. As for your question regarding a Browns type stadium, I’d offer that type of design may not provide the pricing power that is the goal behind a new stadium in the first place. The purpose of replacing NEF is at this time not a utilitarian one. It’s not crumbling to the ground or unsafe. The purpose is going to be creating new revenue streams through  conveniences and amenities along with fewer seats to implement a new, higher pricing structure. 

At some point the price of tickets have to go up. The Bills have had the lowest ticket prices in the league. I really think the Bills are going to raise their tickets to an average of $200, which is what the Bucs average out to. The Bills are half that right now. 

 

The way it sounds is a lot of the people on this board wouldn't pay that. 

[RiotAct]

8 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

At some point the price of tickets have to go up. The Bills have had the lowest ticket prices in the league. I really think the Bills are going to raise their tickets to an average of $200,

I could see that working if the new stadium seats around 35k.

[Boatdrinks]

16 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

At some point the price of tickets have to go up. The Bills have had the lowest ticket prices in the league. I really think the Bills are going to raise their tickets to an average of $200, which is what the Bucs average out to. The Bills are half that right now. 

 

The way it sounds is a lot of the people on this board wouldn't pay that. 

Offhand I’d say that sounds a bit high. Somewhere in the $150 range would put the Bills above the bottom quarter of the league in average ticket price. That seems doable. I agree that the pricing needs to be on an upward trajectory. The stadium and its features will have a lot to do with what that price point is. I’m interested to see the results of the study commissioned by the owners whether it’s released or just sort of “ leaks out”. There’s a long way to go on this. 

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

LOL how does Uber work other than help those to paid to help advertise?

You still need to get the car there and back and you need waiting space as well.

 

Some who want a specific solution will add anything they think would support their point of view.

I am surprised you did not suggest blimps from which event goers could leave from stadium roof!

 

 

With Uber you do not need 4+ hours of parking spaces.  People use it all the time in other cities - why would it not work here.  You create a small Uber lot with a exit at a light for pick-up and drop off.

 

I have used it for Baseball and Hockey In Philly.  Football in Indy.  It worked well as long as it is thought out.

 

If you use mass transit to move a majority of the people - like they do for other downtown arenas- Uber will work.  If you do not expand your mind and you look at things only as they are right now with 80,000 fans all with cars right there - then it won’t work as well.

 

A downtown arena would require a different set-up than the OP set-up - that is obvious.  The difference in getting in and out must be addressed and it has to be something that works for people during the week also.  So a light rail line with parking outside the city - can be used for both daily commuters and weekend games.  Services like Uber work to move people around without the need for long term parking helps and works great in cities with limited parking.

 

Everything I suggested was legitimate things discussed and used in other cities- why is Buffalo different.  Open your mind a bit and travel - see how other places do things with downtown stadiums and maybe you can have a real discussion about options.

 

 

 

 

[mead107]

On 8/1/2019 at 6:31 AM, BuffaloBill said:

I had an interesting conversation with a guy from Cleveland yesterday who said the stadium. In Buffalo sucks.  He was not being a dick just honest in hos opinion.  I told him that while I agreed that the concessions and amenities were lacking compared to other NFL stadiums it was a great place to watch the game.  He agreed with this adding that the bowl concept really works well.  

 

So for me, I would love the idea of a major overhaul of the current stadium. Keep the bowl and build better access, concession areas and restrooms.

Need a much wider concourse 

[Rochesterfan]

12 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

You have got Paladino absolutely nailed.  I don't think he has ever risked a penny of his own to develop anything in Buffalo even when he was the supposed "lead developer".  He's always made sure -- with the help of his cronies -- that his profit was always guaranteed by the taxpayers.

 

 

Who is this "they" that have studied renovating NEF for years and declared it impossible.  My guess it's individuals, groups, and businesses with vested interests in siting a stadium in downtown Buffalo, specifically in a place that will benefit them and not necessarily the city of Buffalo and certainly not city, county, and state taxpayers who will have to kick in at least hundreds of millions whether the stadium is renovated or built new and no matter where it's located.

 

Unless the City of Buffalo and the Pegulas are putting up their own money, which is highly unlikely, what their goals are is irrelevant.   Erie County and New York State will be the primary sources of public revenue, so their goals should be what's important, and those should include keeping the total cost of the stadium, including land and infrastructure, as reasonable as possible.  Do not underestimate the  importance of issues with land acquisition costs and neighborhood opposition to New York State, either.  It was those two issues that sunk the Giants/Jests building their new stadium in NYC rather than NJ.   IIRC, the bond issue for the NYC stadium on the West Side was killed off by the legislature.

 

If 60-80k individuals attend a football, then the infrastructure has to be able to handle that number leaving the downtown, three or four times the max for the Sabres.  It's easy to say "rail and some by bus routes/Uber" but the rail in Buffalo consists of a single line.  Even if it's expanded into Amherst, there's still only 1 line.  Buses and Uber will be hampered by the same issues that exist for private vehicles, no access at all westward and very limited access southward, and access in all directions very limited by narrow city streets, many of which are one-way.  There's no way to get around the fact that a downtown stadium will require significantly more infrastructure improvement compared to a stadium at/near the current site in OP.

 

Well as this is not the teams first deep dive into what to do with the stadium - I would suggest “They” is the team and the city who have been doing different studies for about 15 years on what can and can not be done.  

 

Since the team and the city are the principal people that will be making the final decision- I think their interests are very high on the overall discussion of what will occur.  I do not understand at all why you would suggest that the 2 parties involved in the decision would not look at their overall goals as a guiding point to the decision?  Their goals would be a part of the defining of the scope and breath of what they want to look at.

 

Yes - any stadium downtown would require infrastructure changes - it would also have to be something that works during the week to recover money other than just for sporting events.  Luckily the land for a light rail line is already owned and lines already exist going down and back to several spots. They would need upgrading and in some spots a second line added, but it can be done.

 

Currently there is one line up through Amherst and 1 line down through the south towns so you would have 2 major prongs to come from - North and East could hit Amherst near the 190 and 90.  South towns and over could use the steel plant area with Route 5 and 90 right there to move people in and out.

 

I am not saying it would be easy or cheap, but it is an option.  Most people object to Downtown because of the assumed parking issues based upon Sabre’s games.  I just do not think that is a factor because I do not think they will make enough parking for that.  The expectations will be that the vast majority of fans for all stadiums get there from mass lots outside of downtown area.

 

Then it becomes land acquisition which will be interesting.  This is why I do not expect a final decision on this for years as the city and the Pegulas look to buy up land they want.  A decision can’t be truly discussed because of the lease for a bit - they will extend the lease for a couple of years to allow building of the stadium wherever. 

 

We will see what the final decision is - but I do not think any decision will be made lightly.  They will come up with a decision and a plan to get things done.

 

 

[May Day 10]

I dont care if its uber, lyft, horse and buggy, rickshaws, palanquins, or liberty cab.  The street pattern out of perry street/cobblestone is the same single lane gridlock going in 1 to 2 directions.  

 

I would bet a large majority of people who attend bills games live outside the city limits as well.  Unlike other cities.

 

I have been to plenty of venues across the country, and most of them are tucked into an interstate(s).  Drivers empty out right onto the highway and disappear. 

 

Its not that i am against a downtown stadium.  Ill probably be 50 by then and ready for a go out for a beer, then attrnd a game experience.  I just believe the cost and heavy lift of putting a stadium downtown is much more prohibitive than building one in orchard park by the existing one.

[Elite Poster]

On 8/1/2019 at 12:11 AM, mrags said:

So is Brian Moorman. But everyone here loves him for some reason. 

 

Come again?

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

I dont care if its uber, lyft, horse and buggy, rickshaws, palanquins, or liberty cab.  The street pattern out of perry street/cobblestone is the same single lane gridlock going in 1 to 2 directions.  

 

I would bet a large majority of people who attend bills games live outside the city limits as well.  Unlike other cities.

 

I have been to plenty of venues across the country, and most of them are tucked into an interstate(s).  Drivers empty out right onto the highway and disappear. 

 

Its not that i am against a downtown stadium.  Ill probably be 50 by then and ready for a go out for a beer, then attrnd a game experience.  I just believe the cost and heavy lift of putting a stadium downtown is much more prohibitive than building one in orchard park by the existing one.

 

Too many advocates of a downtown stadium dismiss how limiting downtown Buffalo's geography actually is when it comes to access.   Downtown is butted up  against Lake Erie, the Buffalo Harbor, and the Buffalo River on the west and south, which is why the development and population growth in the Buffalo area is -- and always has been -- to the north and east first.  Westward development has always been nil.  Outside of the Old First Ward neighborhoods right around the Harbor and the Buffalo River, southward development was late in coming since development in South Buffalo didn't real start until after 1900.  Buffalo's geography is why Erie County's population is concentrated in the Northtowns and northern parts of the eastern suburbs.  Whether by private vehicle, rail, bus or Uber, traffic from any stadium located in downtown Buffalo would be going primarily north or northeast.  It would be the heavy concentration of traffic, especially after games, that would require significant infrastructure upgrades to the highways.  Unfortunately, the closest limited access highway to a downtown stadium, I-190N, has limited possibilities for expansion because it runs along the Niagara River.  I-190S which connects to the Thruway, runs through miles of established neighborhoods.   

 

Geographically, downtown is just about the worst site in Erie County to locate a new stadium.  Cost-wise it will easily be the most expensive option for any new stadium because the cost of road expansion.  Putting the stadium in downtown by the Inner Harbor or in the Cobblestone district only exacerbates the problems and increase the costs.  I'm not sure if there are better sites in downtown, but there are better and cheaper sites within the city outside of downtown, some very close to downtown.  Not every venue or destination in Buffalo needs to be located in downtown.

Edited August 5, 2019 by SoTier

[PromoTheRobot]

13 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d suspect there are many reasons, ranging from unwillingness to pay what will inevitably be higher prices to wanting to preserve the current tailgating environment. Some of it may just be aversion to change. As for your question regarding a Browns type stadium, I’d offer that type of design may not provide the pricing power that is the goal behind a new stadium in the first place. The purpose of replacing NEF is at this time not a utilitarian one. It’s not crumbling to the ground or unsafe. The purpose is going to be creating new revenue streams through  conveniences and amenities along with fewer seats to implement a new, higher pricing structure. 

 

I beg to differ a bit on the condition of NEF. The upper deck are approaching unsafe condition. They are a few years away from being condemned. Ever feel the stands shake up there?

48 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Too many advocates of a downtown stadium dismiss how limiting downtown Buffalo's geography actually is when it comes to access.   Downtown is butted up  against Lake Erie, the Buffalo Harbor, and the Buffalo River on the west and south, which is why the development and population growth in the Buffalo area is -- and always has been -- to the north and east first.  Westward development has always been nil.  Outside of the Old First Ward neighborhoods right around the Harbor and the Buffalo River, southward development was late in coming since development in South Buffalo didn't real start until after 1900.  Buffalo's geography is why Erie County's population is concentrated in the Northtowns and northern parts of the eastern suburbs.  Whether by private vehicle, rail, bus or Uber, traffic from any stadium located in downtown Buffalo would be going primarily north or northeast.  It would be the heavy concentration of traffic, especially after games, that would require significant infrastructure upgrades to the highways.  Unfortunately, the closest limited access highway to a downtown stadium, I-190N, has limited possibilities for expansion because it runs along the Niagara River.  I-190S which connects to the Thruway, runs through miles of established neighborhoods.   

 

Geographically, downtown is just about the worst site in Erie County to locate a new stadium.  Cost-wise it will easily be the most expensive option for any new stadium because the cost of road expansion.  Putting the stadium in downtown by the Inner Harbor or in the Cobblestone district only exacerbates the problems and increase the costs.  I'm not sure if there are better sites in downtown, but there are better and cheaper sites within the city outside of downtown, some very close to downtown.  Not every venue or destination in Buffalo needs to be located in downtown.

 

Being up against a lake or rivers doesn't seem to affect cities like Detroit, Cleveland or Chicago. But Buffalo is special somehow?

[mrags]

4 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Come again?

Brian Moorman is a @ickbag

[Mrbojanglezs]

I think a good spot is somewhere east of the airport by the 90. Then they can create a new dedicated exit right on to the 90 going east and west. There can be a little parkway going from the 90 to the stadium. 

 

There has to be some land out there. 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Mrbojanglezs

[PromoTheRobot]

24 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

I think a good spot is somewhere east of the airport by the 90. Then they can create a new dedicated exit right on to the 90 going east and west. There can be a little parkway going from the 90 to the stadium. 

 

There has to be some land out there. 

 

 

I'll bet there are only two potential landing spots: Downtown or next to NEF.

[Augie]

12 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I beg to differ a bit on the condition of NEF. The upper deck are approaching unsafe condition. They are a few years away from being condemned. Ever feel the stands shake up there?

 

Being up against a lake or rivers doesn't seem to affect cities like Detroit, Cleveland or Chicago. But Buffalo is special somehow?

 

Don’t forget Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Nashville and the others. It is in fact quite common and ordinary. Getting out of the parking lots in OP is no treat. I don’t care where the stadium goes, but let’s not pretend OP is perfect. 

 

 

.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Augie

[Fan in San Diego]

The Petco ballpark and Qual comm in San Diego were /are in constricted road access areas. So I don't buy the traffic issues. Just make sure a rail line goes to the stadium to bring people in and out during games. Downtown it is! Carry on.

 

[purple haze]

14 hours ago, SoTier said:

Not every venue or destination in Buffalo needs to be located in downtown.

An issue for some years is that everything went to the suburbs.  That was the case in cities across the country.  Then the memo went out that 

a viable, developed downtown is good for businesses and culture.  Buffalo, as usual, stayed stuck in the past, but now seems to have emerged

from the spell of suburbia.  There are good arguments to be made for keeping the stadium in Orchard Park, but if folks can't see a downtown

stadium coming I don't know what to tell them.  And complaining about taxes and traffic and usage and no tailgating ain't stopping it.  

 

Working on roads and rail, both public transportation and trains will probably be part of stadium construction.  Yes, it will cost a lot of money.

Yes, tax payers will help fund it.  Yes, the Pegula's will kick in.  Yes, the NFL will probably kick in.  It is what it is.   I can see the state paying

for infrastructure: roads and rail;  the county, Pegula's and NFL and taxpayers covering the stadium.  I can also see a plan for a new Sabres 

arena as part of that construction.  When the stadium is built enjoy seeing the Bills play, and hopefully win.  Change is life.