Carl Paladino: Put new stadium in Cobblestone district

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

 

Sabres parking can be simple or a nightmare. For those who don't mind walking, you can find pretty cheap or even free parking and hoof it to the stadium. If you want to be closer, you are forsaken to the congested crowd of 18 thousand plus all trying to go the same way on a single street. 

 

A DT standium with the current infastructure is not practical IMO. 

Fully agree. I would honestly think that the necessary infrastructure upgrades would probably be a bigger return on investment than the stadium itself.

 

But that's not something the Pegulas or the NFL can or should pony up for. That means requiring the state or county to likely sink hundreds of millions of dollars never mind the other issues that go into stadium wrangling.

 

In a perfect world, that would be the best option. We are not in a perfect world. Unless Poloncarz is bringing in investors that would handle all stadium costs themselves he should shut up.

[Saxum]

14 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

Baseball 81 dates in the summer is not comparable of 8 dates, many of them in poor weather

 

In Atlanta summer IS bad weather.  I have worked there is summer.

[GreggTX]

On 8/1/2019 at 11:34 PM, jabu said:

 

Did you ever go to the old War Memorial Stadium? I did as a very young kid. I'm thinking that was in city limits, but not really downtown? I do remember it was in a rough neighborhood.

 

A friend had her purse stolen outside War Memorial Stadium as we were headed in to see a preseason game many years ago. It was the late 60's, I think.

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

 

Sabres parking can be simple or a nightmare. For those who don't mind walking, you can find pretty cheap or even free parking and hoof it to the stadium. If you want to be closer, you are forsaken to the congested crowd of 18 thousand plus all trying to go the same way on a single street. 

 

A DT standium with the current infastructure is not practical IMO. 

There are much bigger concerns at work here than traffic flow after a game.

Try to think beyond your own viewpoint.

 

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

15 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

There are much bigger concerns at work here than traffic flow after a game.

Try to think beyond your own viewpoint.

 

 

 

I was responding to a post where traffic was being discussed. 

[Lurker]

22 hours ago, Fan in San Diego said:

Question to anyone living downtown or close to downtown. Do you think buying a condo downtown is a good investment and or a even good idea?

 

 

 

In general, no.   While a few units in Waterfront Village might be an attractive long-term play, real estate values depend on three things (yes, location and location are two of them).   

 

The third one is population growth and Buffalo does not (and likely will not) have that...

[Jrb1979]

Why is it so many are against a downtown stadium or a new stadium? I have never had an issue leaving downtown after a Sabres game but then again I usually go to one of the bars to wait til traffic clears. What's wrong with a stadium like the Browns play in but downtown?

[Turk71]

30 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Why is it so many are against a downtown stadium or a new stadium? I have never had an issue leaving downtown after a Sabres game but then again I usually go to one of the bars to wait til traffic clears. What's wrong with a stadium like the Browns play in but downtown?

80,000 people vs 17,000, big difference. Not saying they couldn't make it work but the logistics would be very challenging I would think.

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

What if they used the land at the Central Terminal for stadium parking and tailgating, and ran a rail shuttle downtown from there?

 

There are numerous alternatives to putting a stadium in the city but not in downtown.  A site near the CT would make running commuter trains to/from downtown very feasible.  Land acquisition would probably not be a big issue as the city owns considerable property there.

 

Another option might be near the South Ogden Street exit of I-190.  There's rail to connect to downtown and the Thruway and Niagara Section are right there.  The area is mostly warehouses, many of which are now longer used.

 

Both would offer big savings in land acquisition and infrastructure costs than trying to wedge a stadium into downtown.

[SoTier]

9 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

80,000 people vs 17,000, big difference. Not saying they couldn't make it work but the logistics would be very challenging I would think.

 

I would add that the cost for land acquisition and infrastructure improvements would make the cost of any downtown stadium significantly more than building on county owned property in OP near the current stadium.

[Mr. WEO]

Arguments that new stadiums reliably have a positive local economic impact have been proven resoundingly false for years now.

 

There just are not enough events to make money off of.  There simply are not enough master truck shows or stadium sized concert tours (that would pass through Buffalo) to cover the debt and upkeep.

 

MLS?  LOL--a "Ponzi scheme" with a 200 million buy-in per new franchise for what would be watered down, crappy (even by US soccer standards) product that will struggle for paid customers.

 

And no matter how many businesses got a revenue bump form game or events days, it would be a drop in the bucket (in increased tax revenues) compared to the public gifting to subsidize a billion plus dollar new clubhouse for Pegula et al..

[Lurker]

34 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

80,000 people vs 17,000, big difference. Not saying they couldn't make it work but the logistics would be very challenging I would think.

 

And yet, 50,000 workers in the Central Business District deal with it everyday. 

 

A 60,000 seat stadium in Cobblestone District would be a walk in the park, except for the fact a lot more alcohol would be involved...

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I don't think anyone here talking about parking and traffic flow issues is saying it because they hate the idea of having a stadium closer to the city. Personally, I would love it if between canalside and three sports complexes we make it a place to be 12 months out of the year.

 

 

The problem is that it's the one with the most logistical issues (traffic among them), infrastructure (power grid, plumbing, road construction, land issues (possible public domain or the city ceding land) before we even get to the part where most major league teams ask the city to kick in for the stadium. 

 

That's a hard sell to the state government.

 

Now, if Paladino has a group of investors lined up and champing at the bit to fork over money, hey, great for him. But knowing him, he's looking for a pump and dump payday to drive up his real estate value, sell, and flounce away as other people have to make what he sold a reality.

[BUFFALOKIE]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:31 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You forget that half the stadium is in the ground, making expanding concourses impossible. And with an upper deck in questionable shape, how do you support a roof over seating?  Build new or nothing.

So, dig around the existing hole in the ground to make a bigger bowl... Nothing is impossible in an architectural context. Too expensive, maybe, but not impossible. 

 

Just playing devils advocate. I know there are many reasons why my idea is stupid, but it ain't impossible. I am an engineer, and I hate three words: Never; Forever; Impossible.

[PromoTheRobot]

8 minutes ago, BUFFALOKIE said:

So, dig around the existing hole in the ground to make a bigger bowl... Nothing is impossible in an architectural context. Too expensive, maybe, but not impossible. 

 

Just playing devils advocate. I know there are many reasons why my idea is stupid, but it ain't impossible. I am an engineer, and I hate three words: Never; Forever; Impossible.

 

Sure, if you have unlimited money you can do anything. But people act like renovation is such a bargain. Don't forget the upper deck supports are where you would expand concorses below ground. How is easy that? I'm not an engineer but I'm guessing not very.

[BUFFALOKIE]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Sure, if you have unlimited money you can do anything. But people act like renovation is such a bargain. Don't forget the upper deck supports are where you would expand concorses below ground. How is easy that? I'm not an engineer but I'm guessing not very.

It is easy. But, as you said, expensive. Not impossible though. More or less expensive than a rebuild? IDK.

[Rochesterfan]

On 8/3/2019 at 8:41 AM, SoCal Deek said:

Not true at all. In fact having half the stadium in the ground makes both of those improvements much cheaper. (I’m an Architect.) The expanded concourse structures are simply built like conventional buildings, at grade level and you walk straight into the vomitiories (look it up) of both the upper and lower deck. And because the stadium is sunk into the ground it makes cantilevering a roof over the two sidelines not nearly as tall and therefore much less structurally  challenging.

 

 

Really - you think it would be cheaper?

 

They have studied it for years and have already stated they cannot widen the concourses because of the upper deck supports.  The lower concourses are restricted by the upper deck supports and the upper concourses are limited by their design.

 

It is the same issue with the bathrooms - the available piping and water infrastructure within the concourses was nearly maxed - to expand they had to move newer bathrooms out into open areas that could be dug and plumbed - the concourses we’re maxed out.

 

They also talk yearly about the issues with electrical and video limitations due to size of the openings in the concrete structure.  It is part of the reason they do not get many home Sunday or Monday night games.  They lack the infrastructure to be able to expand to handle the increased cameras and views for those games.  They addressed that as best they could with the last upgrades, but without basically ripping everything apart they were nearly maxed out.

 

From a fans perspective at your seats the games are great.  The food, concourses, bathrooms, etc. are all lacking and those are things that the team and the city have said are maxed out because of the original design.

 

Even the issue with trying to cover the upper deck - even with smaller coverage is that to support it - you need support beams and that suddenly gives obstructive views.  It will detract from the experience.

 

I do not see any way they remodel the stadium.  The stadium will be new and updated to handle these issues.  The question becomes what is the goal for the city and the Pegulas - is it keeping traditional tail gating and fan experience?  Then build near the current stadium.  

 

I believe if they are looking to create a different experience and enhance the city and their property downtown- then building a stadium downtown will be the way to go.  Then it is just an issue of deciding how you want to move people and enhancing the rail line is an easy way to help both during the week and during the games.  You could even allow tailgating at these rail lots either up by UB or down route 5 where the steel plants used to be and keep some of the experience.  There is a ton of open spaces on rail lines to be used and the money generated could help offset some costs.  

 

I would not not expect them to look at infrastructure to get 60-80,000 fans out of downtown after a game.  I would expect that they have parking for about 15-20,000 fans downtown- similar to a Sabre’s game.  That means 30-40,000 by rail and some by bus routes/Uber.  The big loss will be the RV lot - hoping to be replaced by hotel rooms right there and access to food, drinks, and the casino.

[SoTier]

5 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I don't think anyone here talking about parking and traffic flow issues is saying it because they hate the idea of having a stadium closer to the city. Personally, I would love it if between canalside and three sports complexes we make it a place to be 12 months out of the year.

 

 

The problem is that it's the one with the most logistical issues (traffic among them), infrastructure (power grid, plumbing, road construction, land issues (possible public domain or the city ceding land) before we even get to the part where most major league teams ask the city to kick in for the stadium. 

 

That's a hard sell to the state government.

 

Now, if Paladino has a group of investors lined up and champing at the bit to fork over money, hey, great for him. But knowing him, he's looking for a pump and dump payday to drive up his real estate value, sell, and flounce away as other people have to make what he sold a reality.

 

You have got Paladino absolutely nailed.  I don't think he has ever risked a penny of his own to develop anything in Buffalo even when he was the supposed "lead developer".  He's always made sure -- with the help of his cronies -- that his profit was always guaranteed by the taxpayers.

 

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Really - you think it would be cheaper?

 

They have studied it for years and have already stated they cannot widen the concourses because of the upper deck supports.  The lower concourses are restricted by the upper deck supports and the upper concourses are limited by their design.

 

It is the same issue with the bathrooms - the available piping and water infrastructure within the concourses was nearly maxed - to expand they had to move newer bathrooms out into open areas that could be dug and plumbed - the concourses we’re maxed out.

 

They also talk yearly about the issues with electrical and video limitations due to size of the openings in the concrete structure.  It is part of the reason they do not get many home Sunday or Monday night games.  They lack the infrastructure to be able to expand to handle the increased cameras and views for those games.  They addressed that as best they could with the last upgrades, but without basically ripping everything apart they were nearly maxed out.

 

From a fans perspective at your seats the games are great.  The food, concourses, bathrooms, etc. are all lacking and those are things that the team and the city have said are maxed out because of the original design.

 

Even the issue with trying to cover the upper deck - even with smaller coverage is that to support it - you need support beams and that suddenly gives obstructive views.  It will detract from the experience.

 

I do not see any way they remodel the stadium.  The stadium will be new and updated to handle these issues.  The question becomes what is the goal for the city and the Pegulas - is it keeping traditional tail gating and fan experience?  Then build near the current stadium.  

 

I believe if they are looking to create a different experience and enhance the city and their property downtown- then building a stadium downtown will be the way to go.  Then it is just an issue of deciding how you want to move people and enhancing the rail line is an easy way to help both during the week and during the games.  You could even allow tailgating at these rail lots either up by UB or down route 5 where the steel plants used to be and keep some of the experience.  There is a ton of open spaces on rail lines to be used and the money generated could help offset some costs.  

 

I would not not expect them to look at infrastructure to get 60-80,000 fans out of downtown after a game.  I would expect that they have parking for about 15-20,000 fans downtown- similar to a Sabre’s game.  That means 30-40,000 by rail and some by bus routes/Uber.  The big loss will be the RV lot - hoping to be replaced by hotel rooms right there and access to food, drinks, and the casino.

 

Who is this "they" that have studied renovating NEF for years and declared it impossible.  My guess it's individuals, groups, and businesses with vested interests in siting a stadium in downtown Buffalo, specifically in a place that will benefit them and not necessarily the city of Buffalo and certainly not city, county, and state taxpayers who will have to kick in at least hundreds of millions whether the stadium is renovated or built new and no matter where it's located.

 

Unless the City of Buffalo and the Pegulas are putting up their own money, which is highly unlikely, what their goals are is irrelevant.   Erie County and New York State will be the primary sources of public revenue, so their goals should be what's important, and those should include keeping the total cost of the stadium, including land and infrastructure, as reasonable as possible.  Do not underestimate the  importance of issues with land acquisition costs and neighborhood opposition to New York State, either.  It was those two issues that sunk the Giants/Jests building their new stadium in NYC rather than NJ.   IIRC, the bond issue for the NYC stadium on the West Side was killed off by the legislature.

 

If 60-80k individuals attend a football, then the infrastructure has to be able to handle that number leaving the downtown, three or four times the max for the Sabres.  It's easy to say "rail and some by bus routes/Uber" but the rail in Buffalo consists of a single line.  Even if it's expanded into Amherst, there's still only 1 line.  Buses and Uber will be hampered by the same issues that exist for private vehicles, no access at all westward and very limited access southward, and access in all directions very limited by narrow city streets, many of which are one-way.  There's no way to get around the fact that a downtown stadium will require significantly more infrastructure improvement compared to a stadium at/near the current site in OP.

[BobbyC81]

On 8/3/2019 at 1:48 PM, SoTier said:

 

Another option might be near the South Ogden Street exit of I-190.  There's rail to connect to downtown and the Thruway and Niagara Section are right there.  The area is mostly warehouses, many of which are now longer used.

 

 

I grew up not far from there (North Ogden).  There’s also the area east of the exit, which is wide open.

[BobbyC81]

On 8/3/2019 at 4:12 AM, May Day 10 said:

I would love mls, but its a pipe dream here... and cart before the horse.  

 

Here in Sacramento, they have done just about everything they could to get an MLS team but keep getting bypassed.  Have had USL team since 2014.