Mitch Morse in concussion protocol

[H2o]

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

[PetermansRedemption]

7 minutes ago, H2o said:

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

If*

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Teams do not let free agents walk.  They get outbid.

 

 

That's not always true either.     Sometimes a lower bid is accepted for other reasons and sometimes the team has a franchise tag option and doesn't use it.   I can't recall if the Chiefs had the tag at their disposal on Morse but they let him walk because they had already played a good portion of the season with success without Morse.    Not the first very good center the Chiefs have let leave in FA under Reid.  I think he is comfortable evaluating and replacing them.   McBeane's OL choices hadn't been sharp so they probably felt compelled to take more risk for a guy they KNEW could play if healthy.

8 minutes ago, H2o said:

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

 

 

That emoji looks like it should be in concussion protocol.

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Morse was a top center in the market. If you’re going to gamble/bid to land a vet, timing isn’t terrible. 

 

Dareus us was also worth the deal when he was signed. Too bad he turned into a pumpkin once the ink dried. 

 

I dont recall too many folks objecting to the Dareus deal as it happened, it was only the retrospective uproar that fans have the luxury of resorting to when they decide they “knew it was a bad move”

 

 

Yeah I get taking the risk on Morse.........huge wad of found money in pocket.......immediate need......talented player........... but you are ultimately judged by your results.

 

I mean people pan Whaley on here for Watkins but if Watkins had remained healthy and was handled properly he's a top 5 WR in the NFL.        

 

If if's and buts were Lombardi's and Hunt's.........know what I'm sayin'?

[MR8]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again.

 

Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017).

 

Morse has $26M+ in guarantees.   

 

There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit.

 

Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...  He got $11M at signing (money which has already been paid and needs to be accounted for over the 4 years of the deal at $2.75M per year), and $9.4M across the first 2 years of the deal.  Add up $11 + 9.4 and you get how much?  OHHHH right $20.4... the exact same as his dead cap hit if we cut him this year.

 

His pro rated bonus this year is $2.75 (same as every other year) + his $7.4M guaranteed Salary ... that equals $10.15M

 

So in 2020 if we cut him you take $10.15 and subtract it from the TOTAL GUARANTEED MONEY which is $20.4, not your made up number... and you get..... DRUM ROLL

 

$10.25... the exact number I already stated.  His "Cap Hit" in 2020 would be $11.625M, so his dead cap would be $1.375 M LESS than if we kept him on the roster... you just subtract the dead cap of $10.25 from the roster hit if he were on the team of $11.625.

 

So there would be savings by year 2 if we needed to cut him... it's not ideal that we wear the dead cap of $10M but at least we aren't handcuffed to him forever since we can get out from under the deal in year 2.  The savings are even better in years 3 and beyond.

 

If you're comparing that to the Dareus deal, you may want to get your facts straight... Dareus signed a 6 year $108M deal in 2015.  In that deal he was guaranteed $65M PLUS a $25M Signing Bonus, so you're talking about $90M that needed to be accounted for by the cap.  He was traded in 2017, the 3rd year of that deal.  He was 3 years in and the dead cap was $10.66 in 2017 and $14.2M in 2018 making a total of $24.86... his dead cap 3 years in was still more than the total guarantees given to Morse.  

 

On the flip side, if we cut Morse in the second year of his deal we will already realize cap savings of $1.375, and in the 3rd year we'd be saving $4.875M in cap and wear just a cap hit of $5.5M, all of which is the remainder of the unaccounted for bonus money.  

 

The reason the deal isn't a massive boondoggle disaster is because of the structure Beane uses with his contracts.  He makes them so that they are nice upfront money for the player to give them an incentive to sign on the bottom line, with most of that money in the first year or two.  THEN After that first year, the team can opt out without a big cap hit.

 

Here's another example... the Trent Murphy Contract:

 

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus	Other Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$14,525,000	$5,250,000	$1,000,000	$1,500,000	$300,000	$150,000		$5,625,000		$22,318,750
2018	28	$2,625,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$2,625,000		$4,662,500	2.6%
2019 ?	29	$5,800,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$150,000		$3,000,000		$8,706,250	4.6%		$6,500,000	$2,206,250
2020 ?	30	$6,100,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$0		$8,950,000	4.5%		$1,750,000	$7,200,000

 

So he signed in 2018 and got a signing bonus of $5.25M and $5.625M Guaranteed Salary over the life of the 3 year deal with all of it in the first 2 years.  So had we cut him in 2018 we would've had to account for the bonus plus the guarantees, so the cap hit would've been $10.875M, his cap number on the other hand was $4.6625M, so we would've had to use up additional cap space to cut him.

 

HOWEVER the reason this deal is a perfectly constructed "Prove it" deal where if they wanted out in 2019, his Cap hit is $8.7M-ish they could've cut him and only worn a dead cap hit of $6.50M and SAVED $2.2M+ for this year.

 

In year 3, 2020, his cap hit is $8.95M, however he has $0 in Guaranteed Salary, and the only money remaining from his Signing Bonus is $1.750.  So the dead cap to cut him would only be $1.75M and we'd SAVE $7.2M against the cap.  

 

So if he's good we keep him on a good contract for a pass rusher in 2020, if he sucks, we cut him and wear a very minimal cap hit.  And at the end of the day the player is happy because he earned good money over the life of the "Prove it" Deal.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by MR8

[papazoid]

hope it works out...

 

i would avoid all players with a history of concussions.

[Heitz]

8 minutes ago, papazoid said:

hope it works out...

 

i would avoid all players with a history of concussions.

 

So more baseball players on the team..?

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, MR8 said:

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...

 

 

You did a great job explaining the contract @MR8 but you can't change peoples minds with facts if they don't want to hear them.

 

My hope now (not knowing how bad this is) is Morse can be back for the NYJ game and he can get thru as many games as possible this year.

This situation is probably going to be a game by game thing.

 

[CommonCents]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Teams do not let free agents walk.  They get outbid.

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

Edited August 12, 2019 by CommonCents

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

51 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah I get taking the risk on Morse.........huge wad of found money in pocket.......immediate need......talented player........... but you are ultimately judged by your results.

 

I mean people pan Whaley on here for Watkins but if Watkins had remained healthy and was handled properly he's a top 5 WR in the NFL.        

 

If if's and buts were Lombardi's and Hunt's.........know what I'm sayin'?

 

Sort of get you. 

 

Watkins is a completely different story.  The trade up to get him was pricey and he’s barely a top 5 wr from his class much less the league. 

 

Not extending him was the right move. 

 

Morse was a calculated risk, but they also moved on two other guys the can play center.  There’s not a guy on the roster right now that’s being targeted as a cap casualty.

 

Beane is doing a very good job. The next looming challenge here is if and when the team starts to enjoy some success, what happens to the stars coming off their current contracts....? 

 

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Sort of get you. 

 

Watkins is a completely different story.  The trade up to get him was pricey and he’s barely a top 5 wr from his class much less the league. 

 

Not extending him was the right move. 

 

Morse was a calculated risk, but they also moved on two other guys the can play center.  There’s not a guy on the roster right now that’s being targeted as a cap casualty.

 

Beane is doing a very good job. The next looming challenge here is if and when the team starts to enjoy some success, what happens to the stars coming off their current contracts....? 

 

 

I don't mean to make this about Watkins, but boy do I disagree there.

 

They didn't have to extend him, all they had to do was pick up his 5th year option, which would've paid him a bit over $10M (totally reasonable considering Tyrell Williams is currently getting $11M). After that, they could've tagged him for 2 straight years.  They basically gave up on him 3 years early, and as a result they've had nothing that resembles a downfield threat at WR for 2 full seasons.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

22 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

 

I didn't realize KC didn't even offer him a contract. Where did you read that? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

27 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

 

Could just be they liked the backup who stepped in while Morse was out and didn’t want to pay the big FA money...  Levitre and Woods left the Bills as good players.  Bills didn’t know some deep dark secret about them 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh both are liabilities.   Which one is worse depends on the nature.    Morse situation is career threatening.   Dareus' floor was more like "well I guess we just have an elite run stuffer instead of a first team All Pro DT".   

 

Players change and mature it happens all the time.    Look at the attitudes of Dareus, Gilmore, Woods and Watkins since they left.   Shady is another example.   After a humbling debut as a Bill he started owning up to his problems/choices and became a team leader.  Too bad that maturity and elite talent only intersected for one season.

 

Think Dareus was a little career threatening too as one incident away from a suspension from what I recall.

 

Of the 4 you mention, don't recall any attitude or at least not much with either Woods or Gilmore.  As far as I recall neither of them were not welcomed back if they had wanted to sign here.  Dareus, didn't I hear him being taken out last year for passing downs.  Is it really because he's it's been figured out that not very good or is it still related to attitude?  He may not be making the 11 O'clock news anymore, but is he really playing as well as he can?  Sammy well he's kind of faded to oblivion.

 

As for McCoy, so when exactly did he mature, after the 2013 incident when he kicked some woman off his party bus, or after the fight with the off-duty police in Philly, or was it after the domestic violence incident last year.  Does being out of the news over the last year changed him?  I'll grant you, he seems to be a locker room leader, just as Dareus may have been, but in a bad way.

[njbuff]

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

[ddaryl]

 

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

 

 

That is the part that makes this all a lot worse. We are all left speculating the severity of this.  Are they being super cautious or are we looking at season ending IR with a possible medical retirement ?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

27 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

Its concussion protocol. After everything the happened, teams just don't talk about concussion injuries. This isn't a Morse thing. Its a league thing. 

[gobills1212]

2 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...  He got $11M at signing (money which has already been paid and needs to be accounted for over the 4 years of the deal at $2.75M per year), and $9.4M across the first 2 years of the deal.  Add up $11 + 9.4 and you get how much?  OHHHH right $20.4... the exact same as his dead cap hit if we cut him this year.

 

His pro rated bonus this year is $2.75 (same as every other year) + his $7.4M guaranteed Salary ... that equals $10.15M

 

So in 2020 if we cut him you take $10.15 and subtract it from the TOTAL GUARANTEED MONEY which is $20.4, not your made up number... and you get..... DRUM ROLL

 

$10.25... the exact number I already stated.  His "Cap Hit" in 2020 would be $11.625M, so his dead cap would be $1.375 M LESS than if we kept him on the roster... you just subtract the dead cap of $10.25 from the roster hit if he were on the team of $11.625.

 

So there would be savings by year 2 if we needed to cut him... it's not ideal that we wear the dead cap of $10M but at least we aren't handcuffed to him forever since we can get out from under the deal in year 2.  The savings are even better in years 3 and beyond.

 

If you're comparing that to the Dareus deal, you may want to get your facts straight... Dareus signed a 6 year $108M deal in 2015.  In that deal he was guaranteed $65M PLUS a $25M Signing Bonus, so you're talking about $90M that needed to be accounted for by the cap.  He was traded in 2017, the 3rd year of that deal.  He was 3 years in and the dead cap was $10.66 in 2017 and $14.2M in 2018 making a total of $24.86... his dead cap 3 years in was still more than the total guarantees given to Morse.  

 

On the flip side, if we cut Morse in the second year of his deal we will already realize cap savings of $1.375, and in the 3rd year we'd be saving $4.875M in cap and wear just a cap hit of $5.5M, all of which is the remainder of the unaccounted for bonus money.  

 

The reason the deal isn't a massive boondoggle disaster is because of the structure Beane uses with his contracts.  He makes them so that they are nice upfront money for the player to give them an incentive to sign on the bottom line, with most of that money in the first year or two.  THEN After that first year, the team can opt out without a big cap hit.

 

Here's another example... the Trent Murphy Contract:

 

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus	Other Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$14,525,000	$5,250,000	$1,000,000	$1,500,000	$300,000	$150,000		$5,625,000		$22,318,750
2018	28	$2,625,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$2,625,000		$4,662,500	2.6%
2019 ?	29	$5,800,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$150,000		$3,000,000		$8,706,250	4.6%		$6,500,000	$2,206,250
2020 ?	30	$6,100,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$0		$8,950,000	4.5%		$1,750,000	$7,200,000

 

So he signed in 2018 and got a signing bonus of $5.25M and $5.625M Guaranteed Salary over the life of the 3 year deal with all of it in the first 2 years.  So had we cut him in 2018 we would've had to account for the bonus plus the guarantees, so the cap hit would've been $10.875M, his cap number on the other hand was $4.6625M, so we would've had to use up additional cap space to cut him.

 

HOWEVER the reason this deal is a perfectly constructed "Prove it" deal where if they wanted out in 2019, his Cap hit is $8.7M-ish they could've cut him and only worn a dead cap hit of $6.50M and SAVED $2.2M+ for this year.

 

In year 3, 2020, his cap hit is $8.95M, however he has $0 in Guaranteed Salary, and the only money remaining from his Signing Bonus is $1.750.  So the dead cap to cut him would only be $1.75M and we'd SAVE $7.2M against the cap.  

 

So if he's good we keep him on a good contract for a pass rusher in 2020, if he sucks, we cut him and wear a very minimal cap hit.  And at the end of the day the player is happy because he earned good money over the life of the "Prove it" Deal.

 

Times like this, i wish there was a gold star rep point. This post made want to invent my own:)!!

[scribo]

Mitch came out day after day at camp, do the most the rules allow him to do. I think that's a positive sign, not a sign of impending retirement. It is quite possible he will remain in protocol until the week before the season opener to be safe. As those big hands just wrote, the team is required to not comment in any way on anyone in concussion protocol. Zero pressure is permitted on the player to return.

[Big Blitz]

36 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

 

 

If he wasn't doing agility stuff I'd be asking this to.  

 

My guess:  

 

I think they are being really cautious because of the history....probably too cautious.  

 

You'll see him week 1.