Doc Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittakestime said: Can people stop saying Long can play center? Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it. They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it. Exactly right. Except that he's listed as the backup center. Oops. 1
CBD Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittakestime said: Can people stop saying Long can play center? Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it. They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it. They started practice yesterday with him at center with the 1's 1
Ittakestime Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, Doc said: Exactly right. Except that he's listed as the backup center. Oops. And what is Feliciano listed on the depth chart? The depth chart means nothing. Sal C was on WGR today saying Long has barely played center in TC and the team has no agenda to play him there. He only played a couple snaps in a pinch during TC.
RobbRiddick Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 Even if (horror of horrors) he did retire today, I wouldn't blame Beane. Others have rightly said that many players have injury histories, and the only way to get a big name like that is to outbid everyone else. You just have to pull the trigger and hope you're not unlucky with them. Hopefully we get enough games out of him that it's worth it. If he is going to miss some games this season I hope we have him for the run in, because that looks on paper like the really tough part of the schedule and obviously leads into the playoffs.
MR8 Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittakestime said: Can people stop saying Long can play center? Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it. They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it. 11 minutes ago, Doc said: Exactly right. Except that he's listed as the backup center. Oops. 5 minutes ago, CBD said: They started practice yesterday with him at center with the 1's JMO but I think Ittakestime is kind of right... to a degree. What I mean is that Long was an abysmal failure at Center last year, and I agree that he was brought in to Buffalo to play OG. Where I think the disparity is, McDermott and Beane value guys who can play multiple positions. While they added Long to be in the mix at OG, I think they always also valued his ability to "in a pinch" play Center. Proof of this is that Long has been listed as a C/G on the Bills roster on their website since he was signed. He was always viewed as a guy who could play center, but IMO he was supposed to come in and compete for either the starting OG spot, or a back up OG/C spot because of his versatile skill set. Right now Long is playing Center because Bodine was a tire fire, and Morse is obviously not able to play right now. So out of necessity he's running with the 1s, but I think it's 100% proof he will be on the 53 man either as a starting OG, or a backup OG and backup C. Long Battled through A LOT of injuries last year, and the Jets signed him to a rich C contract last off-season because he has had success at Center. He's more of an OG by trade and skill, but he CAN Be successful at Center. Bodine is only still on this roster because there isn't a viable replacement out there to take reps. Look for the Bills to trade for a Center if they can using some of their depth. But at this point no team is giving away starting caliber centers or guards. So we're making due with what we have. So I guess in summary, Long was brought here to play OG as it's more his natural position, but he can play Center and has been successful there just like he's been a disaster there. Hopefully Morse can come back and Long can slide back to OG, but for now, he's the best we have and teams aren't just giving away Centers right now. We'll be combing cuts for depth on the line, but for now this is the best we can do. 4 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said: Even if (horror of horrors) he did retire today, I wouldn't blame Beane. Others have rightly said that many players have injury histories, and the only way to get a big name like that is to outbid everyone else. You just have to pull the trigger and hope you're not unlucky with them. Hopefully we get enough games out of him that it's worth it. If he is going to miss some games this season I hope we have him for the run in, because that looks on paper like the really tough part of the schedule and obviously leads into the playoffs. That wouldn't happen IMO. He would be screwing the Bills over HARD CORE if he just up and retired. The classy thing to do would be to let the team put him on IR and wait until 2020 so it would be year 2 of his deal and the cap hit would be SIGNIFICANTLY decreased. Just like what Eric Wood did by waiting until after June 1st to file his retirement paperwork so the cap hit for his retirement would be amortized over 2 years instead of all hitting at once. It was always a risky signing, but they needed to take a swing! And they did... hopefully he can go, but if not, at least there were out there trying. And like I said in my previous post, the contract is not the end of the world like people seem to think.
oldmanfan Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 If Morse can't go it would seem Feliciano is the starter. Long then backs him up. 1
CommonCents Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: If you look back at Morse’s interview with WGR he talks about some extensive testing in the offseason which indicated he didn’t have much recurrence risk. I presume the front office knew something about that. I think this is a classic case of folks here thinking have more knowledge that the fromt office. Beane took what I’d call a calculated gamble perhaps, but he had a lot more data available to make that play. And if it doesn’t work out then he lost. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so.
John from Riverside Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 So just one question has his spleen been removed yet?
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, CommonCents said: I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so. I don't think it counts as looking at the "facts" if you then proceed to posit a series of questions you do not know the answer to.
CommonCents Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I don't think it counts as looking at the "facts" if you then proceed to posit a series of questions you do not know the answer to. The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, CommonCents said: The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. That’s a question of every free agent. Are you suggesting we should never sign free agents?
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: If Morse can't go it would seem Feliciano is the starter. Long then backs him up. Sounds like that is where it’s trending.
BADOLBILZ Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 2 hours ago, MR8 said: The Kroft and Morse deals LOOK "Lofty" but in reality they are not... Morse's is a bit more firm than Kroft, but both are deals the Bills can get out of fairly easily... Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again. Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017). Morse has $26M+ in guarantees. There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit. Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.
Doc Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Ittakestime said: And what is Feliciano listed on the depth chart? The depth chart means nothing. Sal C was on WGR today saying Long has barely played center in TC and the team has no agenda to play him there. He only played a couple snaps in a pinch during TC. Starting RG.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ittakestime said: Can people stop saying Long can play center? Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it. They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it. To be clear, he failed miserably trying to play center with a torn ligament in his hand. I'm no doctor, but can see where that could make it a bit difficult. 3 hours ago, MR8 said: The Kroft and Morse deals LOOK "Lofty" but in reality they are not... Morse's is a bit more firm than Kroft, but both are deals the Bills can get out of fairly easily... Kroft's Deal: Year Age Base Salary Prorated Bonus Roster Bonus Per Game Roster Bonus Workout Bonus Guaranteed Salary Cap Number Cap % Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension Total $10,950,000 $2,400,000 $3,600,000 $1,500,000 $300,000 $3,900,000 $18,406,250 2019 ? 27 $1,800,000 $800,000 $2,100,000 $500,000 $100,000 $3,900,000 $4,956,250 2.6% $6,300,000 ($1,343,750) 2020 ? 28 $4,450,000 $800,000 $750,000 $500,000 $100,000 $0 $6,600,000 3.3% $1,600,000 $5,000,000 2021 ? 29 $4,700,000 $800,000 $750,000 $500,000 $100,000 $0 $6,850,000 -- $800,000 $6,050,000 So he'a s Cap hit of just $4.95M in 2019, which increases to $6.6M in 2020. HOWEVER in 2020 if we want to cut him we wear just a $1.6M cap hit with $5M in cap savings. In 2021, he would be $6.85M against the cap, but if we cut him we wear just a $800K cap hit and save $6.05M. This deal is by definition a 1 year deal with team option years. Kroft gets nice guaranteed salary for 2019, but going into 2020 and 2021 there is nothing guaranteed, so he needs to EARN IT. If he can't stay healthy this year, they can put him on IR and come to an injury settlement, OR just wait until the 2020 league year, release him, and wear a small cap penalty and move on. It's not the end of the world by any means. Morse Deal: Year Age Base Salary Prorated Bonus Roster Bonus Per Game Roster Bonus Workout Bonus Guaranteed Salary Cap Number Cap % Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension Total $25,100,000 $11,000,000 $5,000,000 $3,000,000 $400,000 $9,400,000 $44,187,500 2019 26 $4,400,000 $2,750,000 $3,000,000 $1,000,000 $100,000 $7,400,000 $10,937,500 5.8% $20,400,000 ($9,462,500) 2020 ? 27 $6,775,000 $2,750,000 $1,000,000 $1,000,000 $100,000 $2,000,000 $11,625,000 5.8% $10,250,000 $1,375,000 2021 28 $7,025,000 $2,750,000 $0 $500,000 $100,000 $0 $10,375,000 -- $5,500,000 $4,875,000 2022 ? 29 $6,900,000 $2,750,000 $1,000,000 $500,000 $100,000 $0 $11,250,000 -- $2,750,000 $8,500,000 WHAT?!?!?!? $44M??? HIT THE PANIC BUTTON!!!!! Oh, what's that? only $9.4M is guaranteed? The Morse deal is a bit more than a 1 year deal like Kroft's, it's essentially a 2 year deal with SIGNIFICANT protection to the Bills considering the dangers of injuries for Morse. The first year, this year, 2019, he is $10.9M against the cap, and it would be a SIZEABLE $20M to cut him... well he'd be post June 1st now so it would be $12M in 2019 and $8M in 2020... but I digress.... Sure that's big, we can't get rid of him in 2019, HOWEVER in 2020, his cap hit goes up to $11,625, but if we decided to opt out of the experiment and go in a different direction, he can be release for a $10.25M dead cap hit, and actual cap savings of $1.3M. After that 2 year period, the Bills realize much larger cap savings if they want to get out from under the Morse deal... in 2021, they could cut him for a $5.5M cap hit and $4.87M savings and in 2022 the final year, we could cut him and only wear the final $2.75M of his signing bonus and save $8.5M While it was a risk to sign Morse to a deal with this much money, they structured it with outs every year following the 2019 season where they would eat cap, but could also get relief if they chose to move on from Morse, or Morse needed to retire etc... If they or Morse himself decides he's done after 2019, we do wear $10M in dead cap, but it comes in a year when we are FLUSH with cap to replace him, and after 2020, that is off the books and we move on. If he gets healthy and stays a few years, our ability to get out from under the deal only gets better and better. .... People complain about the deal like it's going to kill us in the future, however those same people tend to run around complaining without actually looking at the details of the contract and the ability for the Bills to get out of them. There's a new sheriff in town and unlike years past, Beane is structuring deals to benefit the Bills long term, while throwing the players a bone short term to get them to ink the deal. Realistically it's very unlikely they walk away from either after one season. Kroft maybe if Knox and Sweeney come on, but then a small cap hit. Excluding Morse deciding to retire, probably gives them at least one more year which lessens the cap hit considerably. 1 hour ago, CommonCents said: The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. Excluding using the franchise tag on him, they didn't let him walk, he elected to sign elsewhere. Do you somehow have inside information that clearly states, KC never made him an offer? Considering KC has some big contracts coming up to sign, can see them needing to let some go. To sign top FA's you always have to offer more than his present team and in the case of Buffalo maybe a little more on top of that. Did KC not offer the big bucks because of the concussion history, maybe, so he elected to go elsewhere. Happens every day with players all the time. So what was your suggestion as to how they should have addressed the center position instead? 40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again. Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017). Morse has $26M+ in guarantees. There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit. Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from. Big difference though with Dareus there were clear signs of him being a jerk and never playing up to the contract. There's a big difference between taking a risk on a player with an injury history and being an idiot. The injuries can go away, being an idiot all your like likely won't change. Edited August 12, 2019 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch 1 1
oldmanfan Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, CommonCents said: I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so. One of the facts is he got thoroughly evaluated in the off season. Why do you discount that fact?
akm0404 Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 Wait this thread is about how Morse's contract is as bad as Dareus' when we're like, 1 week into preseason and the veteran player hasn't suited up yet? 2
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again. Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017). Morse has $26M+ in guarantees. There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit. Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from. Morse was a top center in the market. If you’re going to gamble/bid to land a vet, timing isn’t terrible. Dareus us was also worth the deal when he was signed. Too bad he turned into a pumpkin once the ink dried. I dont recall too many folks objecting to the Dareus deal as it happened, it was only the retrospective uproar that fans have the luxury of resorting to when they decide they “knew it was a bad move”
oldmanfan Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, CommonCents said: The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. Teams do not let free agents walk. They get outbid.
BADOLBILZ Posted August 12, 2019 Posted August 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: Big difference though with Dareus there were clear signs of him being a jerk and never playing up to the contract. There's a big difference between taking a risk on a player with an injury history and being an idiot. The injuries can go away, being an idiot all your like likely won't change. Oh both are liabilities. Which one is worse depends on the nature. Morse situation is career threatening. Dareus' floor was more like "well I guess we just have an elite run stuffer instead of a first team All Pro DT". Players change and mature it happens all the time. Look at the attitudes of Dareus, Gilmore, Woods and Watkins since they left. Shady is another example. After a humbling debut as a Bill he started owning up to his problems/choices and became a team leader. Too bad that maturity and elite talent only intersected for one season.
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