JoPar_v2 Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: My bad, I forgot posting on a message board is an academic exercise requiring exact precision. Way to be “that guy.” But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. In any event, the force of the hit doesn’t necessarily equal an increased chance of a conclusion. It is actually a luck of the draw thing in that sense. It is not relevant that it happened after one practice. That does not indicate other equally light hits will later cause concussions. Hence, why this all just so dramatic. Yeah gonna need some citations for these medical claims you are making here chief.
NoSaint Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 46 minutes ago, Doc said: I'm not talking about a guy on season-ending IR: I'm talking about a guy who is being told he needs to retire. Wood wasn't a fringe player and negotiated an injury settlement when you and Hap are saying that all he had to do was ride out his time on IR. And take Michael Thomas. He's getting almost $61M guaranteed. If he had to retire tomorrow, you think he's getting all $61M? Tell me doc, and I’ll use bar napkin math here... you play out your rookie deal and sign your first big contract with $30m fully guaranteed. Who knows, maybe 10 times your career earnings to date. You show up to camp and for sake of eliminating ambiguity let’s say that during practice you are paralyzed or have a Teddy B style injury but actually face amputation. There’s no question: you aren’t suiting up again. How much of that $30m that you negotiated to be guaranteed for injury are you giving back to the team?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Doc said: So if a guy never gets medically cleared and is told he needs to retire? He can't be told "you need to retire" that's the point. If he's not medically cleared, the team can place him on IR. If he fails his physical, the team can release him immediately (and take whatever cap impact that is) or negotiate with him about when they will release him (that's what the Bills did with Eric Wood). But you don't get to order a player to retire. You can't force them to retire. Retiring is a voluntary thing, which is why players who voluntarily retire may forfeit their amortized signing bonus if the team chooses to go after it. 2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: My bad, I forgot posting on a message board is an academic exercise requiring exact precision. Way to be “that guy.” But for real. Most of his concussions are more than a year out. They matter, sure, but after a year the chance of repeat conspicuous dramatically decreases. In any event, the force of the hit doesn’t necessarily equal an increased chance of a conclusion. It is actually a luck of the draw thing in that sense. It is not relevant that it happened after one practice. That does not indicate other equally light hits will later cause concussions. Hence, why this all just so dramatic. These statements do not match what I know about concussions and the impact of repeat concussions. Might you have some references? With respect, I think you're conflating a couple of for-real things. One is so called "secondary injury syndrome", where a player who has sustained a concussion is more susceptible to injury if not completely healed. This is the part where the time since the last concussion matters. But there's a different effect of repeat concussions - repetitive head injury syndrome. This is where recovery times and propensity for additional concussions become significantly worse in subsequent concussions. Morse took more than 5 weeks to recover from his concussion in Week 6 last season, which is a significantly longer time and indicative that this is potentially a concern. There's nothing in this that says after a year all better and "your chance dramatically decreases" 1
RocCityRoller Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) Injury settlements are kept private, that's why we heard little about E Wood. A concussion protocol is not a 100% lock of a concussion. But if someone has a history they will get kid gloves. Symptoms of concussion, go to the protocol. From an interesting article: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/9/18/12940926/nfl-concussion-protocol-explained "During the offseason this year, the NFL added a measure that would punish teams that failed to properly enforce the concussion protocols. Any violation — either in-game or return-to-participation — could cost a team fines or even the forfeiture of draft picks." that was 2016, if it has changed I'm sure it is tighter, if not, Buffalo is playing it safe. This is why Paradis seemed the better FA C. Morse is a great C, but has a concussion history. Paradis is a top tier C, but had a physical injury. Buffalo rolled with Morse. If he really is this fragile for concussions, I want him to retire. As much as Josh Allen and Buffalo need a Center to grow with, it's not worth brain injury IMO. If this really is a concussion, and this would be Morse's 4th, an injury settlement should be allowed by the league if they are serious about stopping brain injuries. If it is kid gloves, we should be hopeful, but wary. Edited August 2, 2019 by RocCityRoller 2
Doc Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, NoSaint said: Tell me doc, and I’ll use bar napkin math here... you play out your rookie deal and sign your first big contract with $30m fully guaranteed. Who knows, maybe 10 times your career earnings to date. You show up to camp and for sake of eliminating ambiguity let’s say that during practice you are paralyzed or have a Teddy B style injury but actually face amputation. There’s no question: you aren’t suiting up again. How much of that $30m that you negotiated to be guaranteed for injury are you giving back to the team? Probably some of it. We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts. But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills. The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Doc said: Probably some of it. We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts. But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills. The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. I don't think that word "obviously" means what you think it means.
Peter Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 I hope for the best with Morse - both for him and the Bills. Nevertheless, according to PFF, he was the 13th ranked center as I recall, and we made him the highest paid center. We probably overpaid even without his considering his medical history. Given his medical history before signing and now this, making him the highest paid center in the league when we signed him certainly raises some issues.
Doc Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think that word "obviously" means what you think it means. So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to?
Captain Murica Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 Morse needs to invest in the Kelso helmet 1
Augie Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 56 minutes ago, Doc said: So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to? With all due respect, and with no intention of speaking for Hapless, but we just don’t know. Surely (I’m guessing) they didn’t pay him more than they had to. But since it’s not public, and probably never will be, nothing is obvious. I’m guessing the contracts have terms regarding injury and what must be paid in that event. He probably got roughly that amount, but I doubt we ever know for sure. Just my two cents. I generally comes down to what’s in black and white on the contract.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Doc said: So you think the Bills paid him more than what they had to? No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him. I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap. 1
Boatdrinks Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him. I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap. Good point. “ settlement” is only indicative of a change in the contract terms. That could be something as simple as changing the date that certain monies are to be received etc. 2
NoSaint Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 9 hours ago, Doc said: Probably some of it. We don't often hear about players retiring due to injury after just signing huge contracts. But again I'll use the example of Eric Wood who negotiated an injury settlement with the Bills. The settlement obviously paid him less than what he was guaranteed to make. As others mention, we have no idea the terms of the EW settlement. Unless there was some factor that would put him at risk of receiving injury guarantees, I do believe he essentially put the full amount in his pocket. Because why wouldn’t he take what he was entitled to? again, of my hypothetical 30m guaranteed for injury, how much are you bypassing for a football related injury that ends your career doc? You say some, but really how much are you quibbling over here? Do you think the player is returning a few hundred thousand? Or $5-10m? 1
Doc Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 8 hours ago, Augie said: With all due respect, and with no intention of speaking for Hapless, but we just don’t know. Surely (I’m guessing) they didn’t pay him more than they had to. But since it’s not public, and probably never will be, nothing is obvious. I’m guessing the contracts have terms regarding injury and what must be paid in that event. He probably got roughly that amount, but I doubt we ever know for sure. Just my two cents. I generally comes down to what’s in black and white on the contract. 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: No, but I think what the Bills had to pay him is what they were contractually obligated to pay him. I don't think he gave money back - he might have agreed to be cut at a time convenient for the Bills so as to allow them to manipulate the cap. 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: As others mention, we have no idea the terms of the EW settlement. Unless there was some factor that would put him at risk of receiving injury guarantees, I do believe he essentially put the full amount in his pocket. Because why wouldn’t he take what he was entitled to? again, of my hypothetical 30m guaranteed for injury, how much are you bypassing for a football related injury that ends your career doc? You say some, but really how much are you quibbling over here? Do you think the player is returning a few hundred thousand? Or $5-10m? A settlement means the two sides come to an agreement somewhere between what each side was seeking. If the Bills paid Wood what he was scheduled to make anyway, there's no need for a settlement and they just outright release him. And again, I think in Wood's case, the fact that he was a Bills lifer, team captain and good player for them made the Bills decide not to go after the remainder of his signing bonus. I can't say it any other way so we'll just agree to disagree and hope that this doesn't come to pass with Morse.
PetermansRedemption Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bills2ref said: Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. It's actually been a week since the concussion I think last Friday was their first day in pads Edited August 2, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, Doc said: A settlement means the two sides come to an agreement somewhere between what each side was seeking. If the Bills paid Wood what he was scheduled to make anyway, there's no need for a settlement and they just outright release him. And again, I think in Wood's case, the fact that he was a Bills lifer, team captain and good player for them made the Bills decide not to go after the remainder of his signing bonus. I can't say it any other way so we'll just agree to disagree and hope that this doesn't come to pass with Morse. We can agree to hope this doesn't come to pass as far as Morse, but there's really no room for disagreement. There are facts about how injury settlements work, and the bolded part above represents a misunderstanding of them. Factually, the "injury settlement" is required whether or not the player is paid the full amount due under their contract because under the CBA, teams can NOT release an injured player. They have to wait until he's recovered, do a physical, then he can be released or keep him on the roster through his contract and pay him. In Wood's case, the point to be settled may simply have been the timing of when he was released (June 1 vs at the end of his contract, better for Bills cap) and how the money due to him was going to be paid (lump sum vs. throughout the season). But formally, an injury settlement was needed whether or not his full contract guaranteed monies were paid - it's required any time an injured player who is under contract is released while injured. Factually, the ONLY time a team is allowed to attempt to recover an amortized signing bonus or guaranteed money is when the player voluntarily retires - not when he is injured, medically can not be cleared to play football, and is released by the team. It's called "guaranteed money" because it's.....you know, actually guaranteed - not because it's money the team can get back if their player becomes permanently disabled while playing and forgos recovering out of the goodness of their little hearts. These are facts. There is no "agreeing to disagree", except that I agree it's futile to attempt to persuade you to review facts on these matters. I'm only putting this out there one more time for the benefit of other folks reading this. 4 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 9 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Good point. “ settlement” is only indicative of a change in the contract terms. That could be something as simple as changing the date that certain monies are to be received etc. Exactly. You get it. The Bills say "You agree we may release you even though you are injured. In return, we pay you the guaranteed money you are due as a lump sum rather than making you stick around the facility and get paid every week through the season" Wood says "As long as I get my money, fine by me, where do I sign?" That's the injury settlement. It could have been something different, of course, but if I were a player with a family to care for whose career unexpectedly ended years before my plan while playing my a** off for the team, I sure as shootin' wouldn't take money out of my pocket to give back to the team. And if the team gives a player guaranteed money, it's...guaranteed, it's not something the team could recover and lets the player have only out of the goodness of their fuzzy warm hearts. "Guaranteed money" is one of the few places where the team is actually committed to the contracts they sign.
LABILLBACKER Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Bills2ref said: Two days removed from the injury and this is still pretty much my philosophy on the subject. Last year he missed 5 games because of a concussion. This is hardly something to just casually ignore.
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