ngbills Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Did we? The dead cap ridiculousness was a manufactured crisis created by McBeane just so they could wipe every shred of existence of the previous regime while putting in their own initiatives that they claim are vastly superior, but have yet to show any results. Seems strikingly familiar... I think we have to go a long way to go before anyone can start claiming this squad is objectively more talented than the 2016 squad they replaced. People on both sides look for anything to prove theei point. Look how fast we got out of cap hell - amazing job Beane. Nevermind Beane did help create the cap hell by wanting his guys only. Who is right? The team was better record wise before many of the cuts. Cant ignore this was a bad team last year that got worse. This year will be telling to see if they are better. Guess what, if not and the team sucks again...we could easily be in cap hell again. Cutting guys like Hughes, Star, Morse, and more could easily add up to $40M+ in dead cap. Edited July 30, 2019 by ngbills
BullBuchanan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 1 minute ago, ngbills said: People on both sides look for anything to prove theei point. Look how fast we got out of cap hell - amazing job Beane. Nevermind Beane did help create the cap hell by wanting his guys only. Who is right? The team was better record wise before many of the cuts. Cant ignore this was a bad team last year that got worse. This year will be telling to see if they are better. Guess what, if not and the team sucks again...we could easily be in cap hell again. Cutting guys like Hughes, Star, Morse, and more could easily add up to $40M+ in dead cap. Right, and just to be clear, it's not that I think they can't turn this ship around. I just don't go handing out attaboys for solving problems that didn't exist before they created them. All of the progress so far has been towards getting the team back tot he level it was before they wrecked it. We'll see if this strategy actually allows them to surpass the previous ceiling, or if it's just a different flavor of 7-9 to 9-7. 1
BillsVet Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 18 hours ago, Cripple Creek said: The team has been rebuilt in a short timeframe. I’m thankful for that and I see promise. You miserable sots prefer to wallow in misery. We got a nice thing working here. Enjoy the ride. "Short timeframe?" Two off-seasons and 32 games into McBeane's tenure is not what I consider short, particularly when you're 15-17. It's almost necessary for most franchises to rebuild quickly because their fan base will not tolerate a 6-10 with little on offense in the second year. For comparisons sake, here's 7 teams in recent years who far exceeded Buffalo's 15-17 start: KC: 2-14 in 2012, goes 31-17 from 2013-15 with 2 playoff appearances HOU: 2-14 in 2013, goes 27-21 from 2014-16 with 2 playoff appearances LAC: 5-11 in 2016, goes 21-11 in 2017-18 with 1 playoff appearance that saw them advance to AFC Championship PHI: 7-9 in 2015, goes 29-19 in 2016-18 with 2 playoff appearances including a SB win MIN: 5-10-1 in 2013, goes 26-22 first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearances LAR: 4-12 in 2016, goes 24-8 first 2 seasons with 2 playoff appearances with a SB appearance SEA: 5-11 in 2009, goes 25-23 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances and a SB in year 5 None of those teams decided to spend 2 seasons on a complete tear down. McBeane don't get credit for slow-walking a rebuild, but I can tell you their seat is warming if this team doesn't get off to a good start after that off-season and having so much trust from ownership.
oldmanfan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 1 minute ago, BillsVet said: "Short timeframe?" Two off-seasons and 32 games into McBeane's tenure is not what I consider short, particularly when you're 15-17. It's almost necessary for most franchises to rebuild quickly because their fan base will not tolerate a 6-10 with little on offense in the second year. For comparisons sake, here's 7 teams in recent years who far exceeded Buffalo's 15-17 start: KC: 2-14 in 2012, goes 31-17 from 2013-15 with 2 playoff appearances HOU: 2-14 in 2013, goes 27-21 from 2014-16 with 2 playoff appearances LAC: 5-11 in 2016, goes 21-11 in 2017-18 with 1 playoff appearance that saw them advance to AFC Championship PHI: 7-9 in 2015, goes 29-19 in 2016-18 with 2 playoff appearances including a SB win MIN: 5-10-1 in 2013, goes 26-22 first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearances LAR: 4-12 in 2016, goes 24-8 first 2 seasons with 2 playoff appearances with a SB appearance SEA: 5-11 in 2009, goes 25-23 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances and a SB in year 5 None of those teams decided to spend 2 seasons on a complete tear down. McBeane don't get credit for slow-walking a rebuild, but I can tell you their seat is warming if this team doesn't get off to a good start after that off-season and having so much trust from ownership. Their fan base not tolerating it, as a reason for them to do something different? Laughable. 1
K-9 Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 3 hours ago, matter2003 said: Its an accomplishment that they did it so quickly, were so thorough and stuck to the plan...most teams can't claim those 3 things. Imo, what makes it an “accomplishment” (whatever that means) is that they conducted the purge while being able to add good talent to replace the departed players AND used the draft capital acquired in that purge to move up and grab their franchise QB, not to mention a highly touted MLB prospect to boot. Whether it pans out or not remains to be seen. But it’s not like they purged the roster and said, “WTF do we do now.” Instead, they created a plan and executed it. Even their biggest detractors should respect that. 1
BillsVet Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 23 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Their fan base not tolerating it, as a reason for them to do something different? Laughable. Ownership sees the same things fans do. And I doubt the former would ignore the latter if results truly matter.
Cripple Creek Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 30 minutes ago, BillsVet said: "Short timeframe?" Two off-seasons and 32 games into McBeane's tenure is not what I consider short, particularly when you're 15-17. It's almost necessary for most franchises to rebuild quickly because their fan base will not tolerate a 6-10 with little on offense in the second year. For comparisons sake, here's 7 teams in recent years who far exceeded Buffalo's 15-17 start: KC: 2-14 in 2012, goes 31-17 from 2013-15 with 2 playoff appearances HOU: 2-14 in 2013, goes 27-21 from 2014-16 with 2 playoff appearances LAC: 5-11 in 2016, goes 21-11 in 2017-18 with 1 playoff appearance that saw them advance to AFC Championship PHI: 7-9 in 2015, goes 29-19 in 2016-18 with 2 playoff appearances including a SB win MIN: 5-10-1 in 2013, goes 26-22 first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearances LAR: 4-12 in 2016, goes 24-8 first 2 seasons with 2 playoff appearances with a SB appearance SEA: 5-11 in 2009, goes 25-23 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances and a SB in year 5 None of those teams decided to spend 2 seasons on a complete tear down. McBeane don't get credit for slow-walking a rebuild, but I can tell you their seat is warming if this team doesn't get off to a good start after that off-season and having so much trust from ownership. If 2 off seasons is not short to you, when there was not a viable QB in place, then there is not much we can discuss here. Your distorted, IMO, view of reality does not match the realities of the NFL. 2
oldmanfan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, BillsVet said: Ownership sees the same things fans do. And I doubt the former would ignore the latter if results truly matter. They go say 8-8 this year the fans are not going to abandon the team. And changing coaches and GMs ever 2-3 years is not a ormula for success. You need a reality check 1
Buffalo Boy Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 3 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: Did we? The dead cap ridiculousness was a manufactured crisis created by McBeane just so they could wipe every shred of existence of the previous regime while putting in their own initiatives that they claim are vastly superior, but have yet to show any results. Seems strikingly familiar... I think we have to go a long way to go before anyone can start claiming this squad is objectively more talented than the 2016 squad they replaced. Long way to go? It’s called the upcoming season and it actually isn’t that long from now? Harken back with fondness to 30th in points, 30 th in yards, 31 st in passing yards and 9 th in rushing yards. Whoo effing hoo!!!! 22nd offense 18th Defense We will be a better team this year. 1
BillsVet Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said: If 2 off seasons is not short to you, when there was not a viable QB in place, then there is not much we can discuss here. Your distorted, IMO, view of reality does not match the realities of the NFL. No QB? Two QBs were on the board at 10 in 2017 when McD elected to trade down. Say no one knew those 2 would be very good to outstanding. Or, that we needed a CB (after letting Gilmore walk). Say whatever you want. The HC abdicated on a decision to find a QB to put behind TT in 2017 so that he could draft a defensive player. You don't delay drafting a QB. You get aggressive because it's the major difference between mediocrity and success. 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: They go say 8-8 this year the fans are not going to abandon the team. And changing coaches and GMs ever 2-3 years is not a ormula for success. You need a reality check Their rebuild has failed if they go 8-8 in 2019. By comparison, their predecessors first 3 years (2013-15 Whaley/Marrone/Rex) had the same record (23-25) and we know how that story ended. If you're not improving, then it's regression. And after clearing all the dead cap unwanted players, drafting their franchise QB, investing significantly in the defense, and buying much of their offense I'd say 8-8 is failure for that reason. As for continuity, a lot of you don't understand how the corporate world works. If you don't get results quickly, you're toast. It's why senior executives have a limited shelf life if their departments aren't meeting objectives and the NFL is not much different. Three years is an eternity to get results, as evidenced by the multiple teams who've succeeded without following the McBeane self-imposed tear-down script. 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 ....the cap situation and what this club was getting in return for production was red ink IMO.....so you either live with the situation or bite the painful bullet, get rid of the dead wood and do your best to remain somewhat competitive during the "purge period".....painful versus painless?...damn right.....got the bawls to pull the trigger?....McBeane sure as hell did....still do not know why Pegula did not follow the TBD Expert Posters' Advice to "fire McBeane....fire McDermott now"....a clueless Owner who ignored the expertise right here right now?....what the hell was he thinking?..blasphemy and fan base disrespect no doubt....my LARGE gut hurts from laughing.... 1
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 On 7/29/2019 at 4:02 PM, section122 said: I still don't think this is the full roster they want. I think this years signings were about creating depth which is why the number of fa signed was so high. The cupboard was incredibly bare last year (yes of there own doing). IIRC a lot of the contracts were prove it deals so I expect some more churning next year as well. I also think after this year they will push all their chips in and I expect at least 1 big fa splash. This isn't quite a put up or shut up year but there needs to be improvement in their record and offensive prowess. This team should be competitive but I don't think it is a contending team yet. Unless Allen pulls a Mahomes that is... I can see in next years draft the first three rounds picking up a LB, DE, WR, and OL. Between the 4 drafts plus FA signing, then the roster will be close to filled out the way they want it. After that will start to replace guys who are OK, but didn't pan out as good as expected. Or they are just no longer needed. On 7/29/2019 at 4:17 PM, John from Riverside said: If the players he brought in dont pan out.....they will be back in like the wrath of god......:P Not really as very few have much invested, so can easily not re-sign or cut with little lost. The only ones costing much money would be Morse, Starr, Kroft, likely couple others I'm leaving out.
John from Riverside Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: I can see in next years draft the first three rounds picking up a LB, DE, WR, and OL. Between the 4 drafts plus FA signing, then the roster will be close to filled out the way they want it. After that will start to replace guys who are OK, but didn't pan out as good as expected. Or they are just no longer needed. Not really as very few have much invested, so can easily not re-sign or cut with little lost. The only ones costing much money would be Morse, Starr, Kroft, likely couple others I'm leaving out. Yeah but you cannot just do things that are economically sound (as much as that sounds great)......in order to stick around you also need to perform on the field
oldmanfan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, BillsVet said: No QB? Two QBs were on the board at 10 in 2017 when McD elected to trade down. Say no one knew those 2 would be very good to outstanding. Or, that we needed a CB (after letting Gilmore walk). Say whatever you want. The HC abdicated on a decision to find a QB to put behind TT in 2017 so that he could draft a defensive player. You don't delay drafting a QB. You get aggressive because it's the major difference between mediocrity and success. Their rebuild has failed if they go 8-8 in 2019. By comparison, their predecessors first 3 years (2013-15 Whaley/Marrone/Rex) had the same record (23-25) and we know how that story ended. If you're not improving, then it's regression. And after clearing all the dead cap unwanted players, drafting their franchise QB, investing significantly in the defense, and buying much of their offense I'd say 8-8 is failure for that reason. As for continuity, a lot of you don't understand how the corporate world works. If you don't get results quickly, you're toast. It's why senior executives have a limited shelf life if their departments aren't meeting objectives and the NFL is not much different. Three years is an eternity to get results, as evidenced by the multiple teams who've succeeded without following the McBeane self-imposed tear-down script. It has not failed if they go 8-8. Stop with the hysteria. 1
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 Just now, John from Riverside said: Yeah but you cannot just do things that are economically sound (as much as that sounds great)......in order to stick around you also need to perform on the field That kind of went without saying, yes the players must do well. Every team will have busts, but need more than 1/2 to become very good to excellent and a few superstars. Rest then you can supliment with draft pick turnover and mid level FA signing, plus maybe one top FA signing each year. You just need to be smart enough to know when the rookie contracts start to expire to not resign all them as some will not be worth it. If I had to predict right now who one might be, I'd pick Zay Jones. Think he may become decent to good, but not great.
oldmanfan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 The Pegula’s hired these guys to carry out their plan. They have a plan, and it should be readily apparent by now to all but the willfully blind what that is. They want talented guys that love to play football, who prioritize football, who constantly look to improve. When they got here, they figured out who they saw as fitting their plan and those who didn’t. They cleared out guys who didn’t fit like Dareus and Sammy, cleared out guys they didn’t think could get them where they wanted like TT, some guys left as FAs like Gilmore and Woods. They knew they had some bloated contracts and ripped the bandaid off quickly vs. slowly as far as the cap. Now they have an admirable cap situation. They want to focus on the draft to build their team. They have two young guys they think are their long term leaders on both sides of the ball in Allen and Edmunds. Yes, they could have taken Watson (the guy I wanted) or Mahomes (whom no one saw having the kind of year he had last year). But they now have their guy, and an AllPro CB (what ever happened to all the clamor about having to have a shut down CB?). They continue to add talent. Obviously their future is locked into their personnel decisions. But the constant whining about it, and how they should be gone so soon if they don’t have a winner right now is just so damn tiresome. First of all, they made the playoffs year one, and spare me the crap about how that was lucky. Second, they knew they were taking a big cap hit year 2. Third, look at the most continually successful NFL organizations. They have agreement between HC and GM on philosophy (unless it’s Belichick who has total control). They have sustained growth. They can focus on drafting the guys that fit what they want, same with FAs. The Pats, Steelers, Seahawks, all have those kinds of models and they work. Do you have to make changes sometimes? Sure. I live outside Indy and the Colts knew they had to, but in Frank and Ballard they have the same type guys as McD and Beane. The Rams? They look good right now, but they have given up a lot of draft picks, and will have to make difficult contract decisions. They have a shot right now, but is that model sustainable? Doubtful; the Bills have a more long term sustained strategy. i get some don’t like their strategy. But let’s just see how it plays out instead of assuming it won’t. Why some assume it won’t is mystifying. 3
ngbills Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 40 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: The Pegula’s hired these guys to carry out their plan. They have a plan, and it should be readily apparent by now to all but the willfully blind what that is. They want talented guys that love to play football, who prioritize football, who constantly look to improve. And other regimes or teams dont? When they got here, they figured out who they saw as fitting their plan and those who didn’t. They cleared out guys who didn’t fit like Dareus and Sammy, cleared out guys they didn’t think could get them where they wanted like TT, some guys left as FAs like Gilmore and Woods. They knew they had some bloated contracts and ripped the bandaid off quickly vs. slowly as far as the cap. Now they have an admirable cap situation. Like many do; You dont get an award for this stuff. They want to focus on the draft to build their team. They have two young guys they think are their long term leaders on both sides of the ball in Allen and Edmunds. Yes, they could have taken Watson (the guy I wanted) or Mahomes (whom no one saw having the kind of year he had last year). But they now have their guy, and an AllPro CB (what ever happened to all the clamor about having to have a shut down CB?). They continue to add talent. Kind of. They have done a ton in free agency and been open to trading draft picks. Mahomes will always haunt them. Obviously their future is locked into their personnel decisions. But the constant whining about it, and how they should be gone so soon if they don’t have a winner right now is just so damn tiresome. First of all, they made the playoffs year one, and spare me the crap about how that was lucky. Second, they knew they were taking a big cap hit year 2. Third, look at the most continually successful NFL organizations. They have agreement between HC and GM on philosophy (unless it’s Belichick who has total control). They have sustained growth. They can focus on drafting the guys that fit what they want, same with FAs. The Pats, Steelers, Seahawks, all have those kinds of models and they work. This started with "Wow look at the amazing job with the cap. Point was they created most of the cap issues and winning is what matters. Havent done that yet. Do you have to make changes sometimes? Sure. I live outside Indy and the Colts knew they had to, but in Frank and Ballard they have the same type guys as McD and Beane. The Rams? They look good right now, but they have given up a lot of draft picks, and will have to make difficult contract decisions. They have a shot right now, but is that model sustainable? Doubtful; the Bills have a more long term sustained strategy. If Allen is legit the Bills have a shot. NFL = QB = Success i get some don’t like their strategy. But let’s just see how it plays out instead of assuming it won’t. Why some assume it won’t is mystifying. Again, it is assuming it already has is the problem. They turned over a roster and we have yet to see the result.
LSHMEAB Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 11 hours ago, matter2003 said: The defense was #2 in the league last year and in the top 5-10 in most metrics...thats more than just solid. And they improved it across the board from a talent and depth perspective...we have the deepest secondary in the NFL by a country mile. The team we've assembled (to this point) is devoid of true stars and it's now 94 percent Beane/McDermott's roster. Allen COULD be a star. Oliver COULD be a star. Edmunds COULD be a star. White is a borderline star at corner. The Patriots have made this model work, but emulating that is a TALL task. I'm by no means saying it CAN'T work. What I'm saying is that I can't really believe it until I actually see it. Clearing cap space is not an accomplishment in and of itself. McDermott squeezing 9 wins and a playoff berth out of THAT 2017 roster was super impressive. Even the 6 wins in 2018 was a max win total considering the roster. So there's definitely hope and I think he's proven to be a worthy HC. He hasn't proven to be a great HC, but he's earned a certain amount of trust. Whether or not this all comes together will largely depend on this offseason's acquisitions. I like a few. Don't like a few. I didn't really like last season's FA'cy despite the fact that they were hamstrung. I believe McDermott can get max results out of the talent at his disposal. I'm not convinced that we're assembling the proper talent to compete at the highest level. But my opinion is just that; an opinion. I'm a Bills fan, so I'm as excited as ever for week 1 at the Jets. But I remain cautious in my prognosis of this plan. The results will speak for themselves and 60 plus percent of this is going to depend on Josh Allen's growth(duh, right?)
oldmanfan Posted July 30, 2019 Posted July 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, ngbills said: The Mahomes comment is typical Monday morning QBing. Not one team in the league thought Mahomes would be the guy he was last year. Not a single one. Because if teams thought he would be there would have been moves by multiple teams to trade up to #1. Coming out there were concerns about his footwork and him playing in an offense that did not produce NFL caliber QBs. Creating cap issues? The cap issues were big contracts on guys not earning the $$, Dareus being the prime one. They solved the cap issue, they didn’t create it. Do all teams have plans? Yes. Do all teams have plans become enormously successful in two years? No.
Doc Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 Instead of clearing cap room year 1, they made the playoffs and did it in year 2. Year 3 and beyond were always the salad years.
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